Carryfast:
Exactly what so called ‘leverage’,does saying we’ve voted to leave but we won’t leave we’ll stay until further notice,supposedly give us.
It doesnt give us any. But if we invoke article 50 THEN try to negotiate, all the leverage and power is with them.
When I bought my car last week, do you think I said to them “oh my mot and tax is up soon so im desperate to make a deal before then?” Did I hell. As soon as I put a clock on it, they had the upper hand to play hardball. All they had to do was stall till my time ran out then I had no option but to bend over for the terms they gave.
The difference there was that I could walk away with no repercussions. Despite what you seem to think, we cant NOT do deals with the EU. I dont care what you say, there is no way we can survive without trading with them and if you put the two year clock on it, they will stall till May blinks first and we can end up getting shafted more than we were as a member to be made an example of. I told you all this was a possibilty BEFORE the referendum and all your expert knowledge on all things political couldnt see it
I agree with your “buying a car” analogy here. In the case of “Invoking article 50” I reckon it would be EXACTLY as you say.
Brussels Memo might go something like this: “Hey, the UK have invoked one of our rules with it’s hair-trigger small print clauses! Haha! They obviously didn’t read that small print! RIGHT. This is the point we can charge them money just to “stop being nasty to them”. It’s Win/Win for the EU at the UK’s expense from now on - and sure as hell - we will make sure they are seen to suffer in sight as much as possible - to deter any other right wing scum around the bloc from even considering leaving themselves.”
We must do this without using EU rules which we cannot really get out of except by circumventing them using good old British ingenuity to pull off.
The EU runs itself like it’s the Brussels Empire. We were a small country once, running a huge empire. In the end, our bad-treatment of that empire’s far flung citizenry - led to it’s collapse.
We’re only across the channel - but our Island status makes us a golden ticket in that it may well be the case that the main qualification for doing ANY kind of “Exit” from the EU - is to be an Island with a strong economy in your own right to start with… Greece couldn’t pull that off, hence why Tsipras sold his soul to Brussels - just to keep the credit going.
Nations with real wealth of their own - don’t need credit. It’s time we manned-up here - and realized that we’re trailblazers for the world here - not just the other EU nations considering exits for themselves…
Carryfast:
You do know that us leaving the EU as in any case of a nation state leaving a Federation is an example of secession. Which is why people like China and the US are zb scared about the possibility of us pulling it off.
On that note you did actually read what nodding donkey said.
Yeah, they are shaking from fear
I obviously didn’t mean ‘scared’ in the literal sense.‘Fear’ in this case being the ideological abhorrence of Federalism towards the idea of self determination and secession of member states and paranoia regarding contagion if/when it happens within,what it considers,as an area of parallel ‘interest’.In this case that obviously being the EU.In that the US at least sees secession within the EU as a potential threat to its Federal government agenda domestically and foreign policy regarding ‘containment’ of Russia.As for China the parallels with Tibet would be obvious.
Carryfast:
Being ruled by people like Merkel and Juncker in a dictatorial environment in which revenge is taken against any state or anyone daring to mention secession and self determination
I agree with you there to a certain extent. Not the secession part as thats ridiculous to even think that is a possibilty but the way they are threatening to harm us to scare other countries from leaving. Its a very dictatoral attitude and does not sit well with me, Its like they are trying to rule with an iron fist and everyone must obey their rule or suffer
You do know that us leaving the EU as in any case of a nation state leaving a Federation is an example of secession. Which is why people like China and the US are zb scared about the possibility of us pulling it off.
On that note you did actually read what nodding donkey said.
Yeah, they are shaking from fear
Yep, Dolph, Im sure the US, China AND Russia will all be quaking after weve given the Eu a good kicking from our expert team of negotiators.
In fact Boris started the other week didnt he? On his visit to Turkey he said he would give support to help them join the Eu. With his obvious influence within the Eu hes sure to be able to get a good deal for them.
I would rehearse all the reasons why Ive always said Brexit is a 90% bad idea, but cant be arsed quite honestly. Some Brexiteers will look at the facts, and maybe influenced by them, but many others seem to ignore facts, figures, and only listen to vague promises of a rosy Utopia in a vague distant future. Dickens made Mr Micawber a rather pleasant but foolishly optimistic character: the same characteristics in a politician is frightening. Saying that all will be well when events show the opposite is truly worrying. Optimism is all very well, but how many Brexiteers went to the pantomime last year to see Peter Pan? When the kids all squeezed shut their eyes and really, Really, REALLY, want Tinkerbelle to fly, did they not realise it was only an act? Wanting a UK that has benefits without costs is unrealistic.
Maybe I could start a new political party. Ill promise tax cuts. And better hospitals and schools. And Ill say dont worry, Ill negotiate a good deal with the builders, they can`t survive without my custom. Sorted.
The main reason politicians cannot get anything much done - is because there’s always some group of plonkers who would oppose said politician’s attempts to “improve things” no matter how few losers were involved.
Simple examples of this would be “Bringing back the death penalty” where a minority of people think that it should stay abolished, a minority of people think that “we cannot risk executing an innocent - even to save a thousand lives” and a minority of people think “law and order is a bad thing”.
Another example is “Taxation”. People who don’t pay tax - don’t care if they are raised. That’s the very rich and the very poor then. Those in the middle - like tax cuts. Any attempt to cut taxes then - will be objected to by the left and right wing, but grabbed with both hands by the middle. Thatcher, Major, Blair - all knew this.
Gordon Brown apparently didn’t though - because he should never have plundered the pensions, and then think he could go on to be a “good prime mininster”. He wasn’t - for that one reason alone.
Right now we have 48% of people who seem rather hard-line in their opposition to Brexit.
When Thatcher won the election despite much hatred of her around the country - she didn’t stand down, and she wasn’t removed by her own party for over a decade.
The one way to upset BOTH sides of the Brexit debate in aftermath - is to “keep on dithering” and waste as much time as possible getting things done.
Who wants to know what deal Tesco did with Unilever last week? - Tescos didn’t exactly brag about it - suggesting that it wasn’t merely a 100% climbdown from Unilever… Hmm…
Carryfast:
Exactly what so called ‘leverage’,does saying we’ve voted to leave but we won’t leave we’ll stay until further notice,supposedly give us.
It doesnt give us any. But if we invoke article 50 THEN try to negotiate, all the leverage and power is with them.
When I bought my car last week, do you think I said to them “oh my mot and tax is up soon so im desperate to make a deal before then?” Did I hell. As soon as I put a clock on it, they had the upper hand to play hardball. All they had to do was stall till my time ran out then I had no option but to bend over for the terms they gave.
The difference there was that I could walk away with no repercussions. Despite what you seem to think, we cant NOT do deals with the EU. I dont care what you say, there is no way we can survive without trading with them and if you put the two year clock on it, they will stall till May blinks first and we can end up getting shafted more than we were as a member to be made an example of. I told you all this was a possibilty BEFORE the referendum and all your expert knowledge on all things political couldnt see it
I agree with your “buying a car” analogy here. In the case of “Invoking article 50” I reckon it would be EXACTLY as you say.
Brussels Memo might go something like this: “Hey, the UK have invoked one of our rules with it’s hair-trigger small print clauses! Haha! They obviously didn’t read that small print! RIGHT. This is the point we can charge them money just to “stop being nasty to them”. It’s Win/Win for the EU at the UK’s expense from now on - and sure as hell - we will make sure they are seen to suffer in sight as much as possible - to deter any other right wing scum around the bloc from even considering leaving themselves.”
We must do this without using EU rules which we cannot really get out of except by circumventing them using good old British ingenuity to pull off.
The EU runs itself like it’s the Brussels Empire. We were a small country once, running a huge empire. In the end, our bad-treatment of that empire’s far flung citizenry - led to it’s collapse.
We’re only across the channel - but our Island status makes us a golden ticket in that it may well be the case that the main qualification for doing ANY kind of “Exit” from the EU - is to be an Island with a strong economy in your own right to start with… Greece couldn’t pull that off, hence why Tsipras sold his soul to Brussels - just to keep the credit going.
Nations with real wealth of their own - don’t need credit. It’s time we manned-up here - and realized that we’re trailblazers for the world here - not just the other EU nations considering exits for themselves…
We need to seperate the political argument for Brexit ( sovereignty ) from the economic one.
In the case of the economic argument there’s no way that stalling the leaving process supposedly strengthens any supposed post Brexit trade deals.IE Snowman’s etc reasoning in that case is if they say they’ll hit our exports we say fine we’ll stay.In which case what’s the point when we’ve already voted to leave and how does threatening to stay supposedly strengthen our hand.
When it’s obvious that the Brexit stalling issue is all about the remain agenda trying to play for time to reverse the referendum decision.The leaving process in this case simply being a case of ignoring article 50,which is just a document which effectively outlaws secession,getting out fast and then being prepared to meet any threats of trade sanctions with retaliation.The idea of staying to get a better deal obviously being just a remain trick.
As for the political argument as I said that goes directly against US and Chinese domestic and foreign policy interests and it’s ‘that’ problem which is going to be far more difficult to deal with.At least unless Trump wins out.Let alone the fact that we’ve got a remain PM working to a remain agenda all based on the lie that she’s for leaving when her actions are all about staying.
Hang on… I’m getting the impression that Carryfast actually believes that invoking Article 50 makes the people of this country selfdetermining. As in that we then get to call the shots, and Westminster will do what WE want.
As for nodding donkey’s bollox at least that proves where the loyalties of the immigrant population really sit which certainly isn’t with their place of residence here.
Carryfast
I’ve been here 25 years, worked and paid into the system 25 years, have two children who were born here, and consider myself at home here. That does not mean that I need to agree with those wishing to leave the EU. I’m just part of the 48% of your fellow born and bred, who also think leaving the EU is a bad idea.
Talking loyalty is easy from behind a keyboard. Just like copy and pasting endless waffle.
Franglais:
Yep, Dolph, Im sure the US, China AND Russia will all be quaking after weve given the Eu a good kicking from our expert team of negotiators.
In fact Boris started the other week didnt he? On his visit to Turkey he said he would give support to help them join the Eu. With his obvious influence within the Eu hes sure to be able to get a good deal for them.
I would rehearse all the reasons why Ive always said Brexit is a 90% bad idea, but cant be arsed quite honestly. Some Brexiteers will look at the facts, and maybe influenced by them, but many others seem to ignore facts, figures, and only listen to vague promises of a rosy Utopia in a vague distant future. Dickens made Mr Micawber a rather pleasant but foolishly optimistic character: the same characteristics in a politician is frightening. Saying that all will be well when events show the opposite is truly worrying. Optimism is all very well, but how many Brexiteers went to the pantomime last year to see Peter Pan? When the kids all squeezed [zb] their eyes and really, Really, REALLY, want Tinkerbelle to fly, did they not realise it was only an act? Wanting a UK that has benefits without costs is unrealistic.
Maybe I could start a new political party. Ill promise tax cuts. And better hospitals and schools. And Ill say dont worry, Ill negotiate a good deal with the builders, they can`t survive without my custom. Sorted.
No surprised that you ‘can’t be bothered’ to justify why it’s all such a good thing to be ruled by a dictatorial foreign Federalist government system which has no democratic accountability.Or the issue of free movement,which effectively means carte blanche for economic migration whether it’s Merkel’s invited hordes or East Euro immigration looking for a better deal than they get at home,or Germany taking all the benefits while making us ( or Greece ) pay for it.On that note we’ve got the ‘facts’ that we’re a net contributor to a blackmail scam,which means giving sovereignty for trade,which makes us a net importer and in which we have no democratic control over decisions affecting this country.
the nodding donkey:
Hang on… I’m getting the impression that Carryfast actually believes that invoking Article 50 makes the people of this country selfdetermining. As in that we then get to call the shots, and Westminster will do what WE want.
Oh dear oh dear oh dear…
Let’s just say that there’s a lot more chance of us making our own MP’s do what we want than Merkel or Juncker and all the other Federalists that run the EU.
As for article 50 no I actually said tear it up and tell the EU to do one with immediate effect.Bearing in mind the actual wording of the document and the fact that Brexit won’t survive a more than 2 year time frame as you’ve alraedy clearly said yourself.IE article 50 is an anti secessionist document made with the aim of over turning any referendum vote to leave the EU.As you’ve said and support yourself.
the nodding donkey:
And one little side argument. 48% is as close to 50% as 52% is. Not really a considerable or convincing majority for Brexit.
Whatever the majority it certainly isn’t a majority for remain.On that note as I said ignore the decision and see what happens in the long term as all federalist anti federalist arguments usually come down to in the end.Unfortunately it will be some poor future generations of Brits who’ll have to try to fight their way out of it.
the nodding donkey:
Hang on… I’m getting the impression that Carryfast actually believes that invoking Article 50 makes the people of this country selfdetermining. As in that we then get to call the shots, and Westminster will do what WE want.
Oh dear oh dear oh dear…
Let’s just say that there’s a lot more chance of us making our own MP’s do what we want than Merkel or Juncker and all the other Federalists that run the EU.
As for article 50 no I actually said tear it up and tell the EU to do one with immediate effect.Bearing in mind the actual wording of the document and the fact that Brexit won’t survive a more than 2 year time frame as you’ve alraedy clearly said yourself.IE article 50 is an anti secessionist document made with the aim of over turning any referendum vote to leave the EU.As you’ve said and support yourself.
Fair point.
Hang on… I’m getting the impression that Carryfast actually believes that ripping up Article 50 and leaving the EU tomorrow, makes the people of this country selfdetermining. As in that we then get to call the shots, and Westminster will do what WE want.
Oh dear oh dear oh dear…
Fixed it. I see what you mean. Yes, I believe you’re right. That should work.
You do know that us leaving the EU as in any case of a nation state leaving a Federation is an example of secession. Which is why people like China and the US are zb scared about the possibility of us pulling it off.
On that note you did actually read what nodding donkey said.
Yeah, they are shaking from fear
Yep, Dolph, Im sure the US, China AND Russia will all be quaking after weve given the Eu a good kicking from our expert team of negotiators.
In fact Boris started the other week didnt he? On his visit to Turkey he said he would give support to help them join the Eu. With his obvious influence within the Eu hes sure to be able to get a good deal for them.
I would rehearse all the reasons why Ive always said Brexit is a 90% bad idea, but cant be arsed quite honestly. Some Brexiteers will look at the facts, and maybe influenced by them, but many others seem to ignore facts, figures, and only listen to vague promises of a rosy Utopia in a vague distant future. Dickens made Mr Micawber a rather pleasant but foolishly optimistic character: the same characteristics in a politician is frightening. Saying that all will be well when events show the opposite is truly worrying. Optimism is all very well, but how many Brexiteers went to the pantomime last year to see Peter Pan? When the kids all squeezed [zb] their eyes and really, Really, REALLY, want Tinkerbelle to fly, did they not realise it was only an act? Wanting a UK that has benefits without costs is unrealistic.
Maybe I could start a new political party. Ill promise tax cuts. And better hospitals and schools. And Ill say dont worry, Ill negotiate a good deal with the builders, they can`t survive without my custom. Sorted.
As for nodding donkey’s bollox at least that proves where the loyalties of the immigrant population really sit which certainly isn’t with their place of residence here.
Carryfast
I’ve been here 25 years, worked and paid into the system 25 years, have two children who were born here, and consider myself at home here. That does not mean that I need to agree with those wishing to leave the EU. I’m just part of the 48% of your fellow born and bred, who also think leaving the EU is a bad idea.
Talking loyalty is easy from behind a keyboard. Just like copy and pasting endless waffle.
No you said ‘you’ meaning ‘this country’ as opposed to the EU Federation and it being screwed by foreign powers in revenge for secession.So which is it are you a loyal citizen of ‘this’ sovereign country,or are your loyalties with your home country and/or the EU federation that ‘you’ obviously support in screwing ‘us’.
Franglais:
Yep, Dolph, Im sure the US, China AND Russia will all be quaking after weve given the Eu a good kicking from our expert team of negotiators.
In fact Boris started the other week didnt he? On his visit to Turkey he said he would give support to help them join the Eu. With his obvious influence within the Eu hes sure to be able to get a good deal for them.
I would rehearse all the reasons why Ive always said Brexit is a 90% bad idea, but cant be arsed quite honestly. Some Brexiteers will look at the facts, and maybe influenced by them, but many others seem to ignore facts, figures, and only listen to vague promises of a rosy Utopia in a vague distant future. Dickens made Mr Micawber a rather pleasant but foolishly optimistic character: the same characteristics in a politician is frightening. Saying that all will be well when events show the opposite is truly worrying. Optimism is all very well, but how many Brexiteers went to the pantomime last year to see Peter Pan? When the kids all squeezed [zb] their eyes and really, Really, REALLY, want Tinkerbelle to fly, did they not realise it was only an act? Wanting a UK that has benefits without costs is unrealistic.
Maybe I could start a new political party. Ill promise tax cuts. And better hospitals and schools. And Ill say dont worry, Ill negotiate a good deal with the builders, they can`t survive without my custom. Sorted.
No surprised that you ‘can’t be bothered’ to justify why it’s all such a good thing to be ruled by a dictatorial foreign Federalist government system which has no democratic accountability.Or the issue of free movement,which effectively means carte blanche for economic migration whether it’s Merkel’s invited hordes or East Euro immigration looking for a better deal than they get at home,or Germany taking all the benefits while making us ( or Greece ) pay for it.On that note we’ve got the ‘facts’ that we’re a net contributor to a blackmail scam,which means giving sovereignty for trade,which makes us a net importer and in which we have no democratic control over decisions affecting this country.
Again you’re wrong, it was the British Labor Gov that invited us all from EE to EU and UK. UK didn’t impose 7 year work restrictions on Eastern European EU member states, like everyone else, hence you had a lot of EE migration post 2004. The only countries UK imposed 7 year ban were Bulgaria and Romania.
Relax Eu will survive without your 8 billion contribution, but you will not survive without 220billion market access. And thats a fact stated by economist, business owners and trade organisations.
Carryfast:
No surprised that you ‘can’t be bothered’ to justify why it’s all such a good thing to be ruled by a dictatorial foreign Federalist government system which has no democratic accountability.Or the issue of free movement,which effectively means carte blanche for economic migration whether it’s Merkel’s invited hordes or East Euro immigration looking for a better deal than they get at home,or Germany taking all the benefits while making us ( or Greece ) pay for it.On that note we’ve got the ‘facts’ that we’re a net contributor to a blackmail scam,which means giving sovereignty for trade,which makes us a net importer and in which we have no democratic control over decisions affecting this country.
Again you’re wrong, it was the British Labor Gov that invited us all from EE to EU and UK. UK didn’t impose 7 year work restrictions on Eastern European EU member states, like everyone else, hence you had a lot of EE migration post 2004. The only countries UK imposed 7 year ban were Bulgaria and Romania.
Relax Eu will survive without your 8 billion contribution, but you will not survive without 220billion market access. And thats a fact stated by economist, business owners and trade organisations.
No it’s EU free movement rules that ‘invited’ ‘you all’.The Labour rabble,like the Cons,then as now being an enthusiastic pro EU institution.
While you seem to have missed the point that the Labour government or in fact any government has no mandate now to support EU membership or with it free movement.The government’s mandate is now to leave the EU and stop free movement as part of that.We ain’t going to do that by invoking article 50 in March 2017 or even adhering to article 50 at all.
As for nodding donkey’s bollox at least that proves where the loyalties of the immigrant population really sit which certainly isn’t with their place of residence here.
Carryfast
I’ve been here 25 years, worked and paid into the system 25 years, have two children who were born here, and consider myself at home here. That does not mean that I need to agree with those wishing to leave the EU. I’m just part of the 48% of your fellow born and bred, who also think leaving the EU is a bad idea.
Talking loyalty is easy from behind a keyboard. Just like copy and pasting endless waffle.
No you said ‘you’ meaning ‘this country’ as opposed to the EU Federation and it being screwed by foreign powers in revenge for secession.So which is it are you a loyal citizen of ‘this’ sovereign country,or are your loyalties with your home country and/or the EU federation that ‘you’ obviously support in screwing ‘us’.
Carryfast:
No surprised that you ‘can’t be bothered’ to justify why it’s all such a good thing to be ruled by a dictatorial foreign Federalist government system which has no democratic accountability.Or the issue of free movement,which effectively means carte blanche for economic migration whether it’s Merkel’s invited hordes or East Euro immigration looking for a better deal than they get at home,or Germany taking all the benefits while making us ( or Greece ) pay for it.On that note we’ve got the ‘facts’ that we’re a net contributor to a blackmail scam,which means giving sovereignty for trade,which makes us a net importer and in which we have no democratic control over decisions affecting this country.
Again you’re wrong, it was the British Labor Gov that invited us all from EE to EU and UK. UK didn’t impose 7 year work restrictions on Eastern European EU member states, like everyone else, hence you had a lot of EE migration post 2004. The only countries UK imposed 7 year ban were Bulgaria and Romania.
Relax Eu will survive without your 8 billion contribution, but you will not survive without 220billion market access. And thats a fact stated by economist, business owners and trade organisations.
No it’s EU free movement rules that ‘invited’ ‘you all’.The Labour rabble,like the Cons,then as now being an enthusiastic pro EU institution.
While you seem to have missed the point that the Labour government or in fact any government has no mandate now to support EU membership or with it free movement.The government’s mandate is now to leave the EU and stop free movement as part of that.We ain’t going to do that by invoking article 50 in March 2017 or even adhering to article 50 at all.
I would suggest that you are missing Dolphs point: when other Eu members put limits on the first Eu migrants from eastern Europe it was a UK national (Labour) decision to allow more in. Art 50 is also a fact. Hiding your head in the sand wont make it go away.
Ignore it? Say were leaving tomorrow? That would mean reversion to WTO terms, which are certainly none too favourable for us. And who would want to make a deal with a country that throws its toys out of the pram if it doesn`t like the contract it freely entered, and reneges on it? I thought we were a more rational and honourable country than you are suggesting.
Perhaps we could have a dictatorship where it takes a 2:1 majority to change anything at all in politics. That includes “removing the current party in power”… “Dictatorship” would be easy to make permanent that way.
Either a majority is a majority - as in “horse racing” (Think: “First past the post” here)
OR
Only a big majority counts. 2:1 seems the very minimum for a “decent” majority if you think about it.
To make such a “dictatorship” more leaning towards democracy - we could keep having polls UNTIL we got a clear result one way or the other - but that would be dreadfully expensive.
Easier to ask once, and ignore the result - which is what our people both sides are now doing alas.
Carryfast:
While you’ve already made your agenda clear which like all the rest of the remainers is all about over turning the vote.In which case at least have the courage to tell the truth about your real reasons for wanting May to stall on the leaving process.Which is all about playing for time to allow the referendum vote to be over turned.
I said I got twitchy, I didnt say id changed my mind and wanted to stay.
And saying I think the result will be overturned is not the same as saying thats what I want.
Stop twisting what people say. Its why no one takes you seriously
Which is why people like China and the US are zb scared about the possibility of us pulling it off. 
