Brexit stuff in one place [MERGED]

msgyorkie:
I dont disagree with you BUT the point I am making is that our high inflation is in line with other western economies. Bugger all to do with Brexit.
You like me are old enough to remember other periods of time when we had high inflation.

8% in 1990
17.97% in 1980
24.21% in 1975

What have all 3 dates have in common? I will help you out…WE WERE INSIDE THE EEC

Point the first.
Statistics text book.
Page 1 .
Line 1:
… Correlation is NOT Causation.

Can you show a mechanism that links the figures you quoted, with membership of the EU?

Point the second…and third and fourth
Were the UK inflation figures better, or worse, than that of other developed economies?
Would we have been better, in or out, of the EU at those times?
Was the EU (Common Market) responsible for that inflation?

(I accept that counter-factual analysis is a real problem, but that is where we are)

adam277:
ye but those statistics do not help his point.

In your debating technique, do you use statistics that do not help your point?

Franglais:

msgyorkie:
I dont disagree with you BUT the point I am making is that our high inflation is in line with other western economies. Bugger all to do with Brexit.
You like me are old enough to remember other periods of time when we had high inflation.

8% in 1990
17.97% in 1980
24.21% in 1975

What have all 3 dates have in common? I will help you out…WE WERE INSIDE THE EEC

Point the first.
Statistics text book.
Page 1 .
Line 1:
… Correlation is NOT Causation.

Can you show a mechanism that links the figures you quoted, with membership of the EU?

Point the second…and third and fourth
Were the UK inflation figures better, or worse, than that of other developed economies?
Would we have been better, in or out, of the EU at those times?
Was the EU (Common Market) responsible for that inflation?

(I accept that counter-factual analysis is a real problem, but that is where we are)

Sorry cricket has just started and I really cant be arsed to get bogged down counter arguing. I just don’t have the free time to trawl statistics to throw back. I know I’m right so have a good night my friend

Franglais:

adam277:
ye but those statistics do not help his point.

In your debating technique, do you use statistics that do not help your point?

I try to avoid statisics to be honest.
Just google Misuse of statistics in the media.

Generally for debating online people use statistics to prove a point beyond reasonable doubt. The issue often is though neither the person posting the statistics nor the person trying to refute the statistics have the ability to accurately critque them.

adam277:

Franglais:

adam277:
ye but those statistics do not help his point.

In your debating technique, do you use statistics that do not help your point?

I try to avoid statisics to be honest.
Just google Misuse of statistics in the media.

Generally for debating online people use statistics to prove a point beyond reasonable doubt. The issue often is though neither the person posting the statistics nor the person trying to refute the statistics have the ability to accurately critque them.

I strongly recommend
John Allen Paulos and “Innumeracy”. Only a slim book but packed with stuff we should all know.
And some really interesting and well explained stuff about stats in Ben Goldacre`s book “Bad Science”.

If we dont have a basic knowledge of words, we cant see lies.
If we dont have a basic knowledge of numbers, we cant see lies.


And argue all you want Adam, but:
Dover where the UK Gov has built 5 passport booths for 50 boats
Caen where the French have 4 booths for 3 boats
Does it need a degree in maths to see the problem?

You haven’t addressed Yorkies figures yet Franglais re worldwide inflation . It’s ok, I’ll wait

the maoster:
You haven’t addressed Yorkies figures yet Franglais re worldwide inflation . It’s ok, I’ll wait

Were all here for a laugh arent we?

Well, thanks Maoster: after so many, many posts accusing me of posting too much, and putting up too many links, and after so many of my queries being unanswered by so many posters here, you object to me having a wee break to eat my dinner?

I am having at quiet little chuckle. Thanks again. :smiley:

Franglais:
Balanced? Just like you?
50% of your posts are pro-Brexit, and 50% are anti-Brexit are they?

I’ve never been afraid to say there are downsides to Brexit and it was not and never will be perfect. You just stubbornly refuse to acknowledge anything that is either good or has potential for such, you know like wages for drivers (and other trades for that matter) that have suffered from 18 years of unskilled, unqualified workers being flooded into the country and driving wages down!

Franglais:
You have mentioned this before.
How do you attribute your rise to Brexit? Other countries, in the EU and elsewhere are giving truck drivers pay rises because of a widespread shortage. That can`t be due to Brexit.

Guess it’s just one massive coincidence in that case and there is in no way whatsoever a link between the cheap supply of labour being halted and unprecedented “above average” pay rises being paid in the last 18 months! :unamused:

Franglais:
And, if your payrise is due to Brexit, do you think that any and all other Brexit effects are a price worth paying for tmcassett to get a few more quid at the moment?

Errrr … yeah.

msgyorkie:

Franglais:
When we were full members of the EU many used to look down on poorer “southern EU” economies.
We now hear cheering because we might be slightly not as bad as them.

The UK and some EU countries do currently have similar inflation rates. In the past we considered ourselves above them.
We might still be in front in some cases but not as far as we once were.

And the forecast isn`t good.

UK inflation is set to rise higher and UK GDP is set to fall to 0.5%…this awful figure means that any inflation we do have, whatever it`s level will have a much worse effect on domestic prices than otherwise.

I dont disagree with you BUT the point I am making is that our high inflation is in line with other western economies. Bugger all to do with Brexit.
You like me are old enough to remember other periods of time when we had high inflation.

8% in 1990
17.97% in 1980
24.21% in 1975

What have all 3 dates have in common? I will help you out…WE WERE INSIDE THE EEC (pre EU for our younger readers)

Not forgetting the need for an IMF bailout while still considered rich enough to be a net contributor to the scam.
As opposed to our economic position in 1972.

Franglais:

the maoster:
You haven’t addressed Yorkies figures yet Franglais re worldwide inflation . It’s ok, I’ll wait

Were all here for a laugh arent we?

Well, thanks Maoster: after so many, many posts accusing me of posting too much, and putting up too many links, and after so many of my queries being unanswered by so many posters here, you object to me having a wee break to eat my dinner?

I am having at quiet little chuckle. Thanks again. :smiley:

How many courses are you having? It never normally takes you 2 hours to reply!

Franglais:

msgyorkie:
I dont disagree with you BUT the point I am making is that our high inflation is in line with other western economies. Bugger all to do with Brexit.
You like me are old enough to remember other periods of time when we had high inflation.

8% in 1990
17.97% in 1980
24.21% in 1975

What have all 3 dates have in common? I will help you out…WE WERE INSIDE THE EEC

Point the first.
Statistics text book.
Page 1 .
Line 1:
… Correlation is NOT Causation.

Can you show a mechanism that links the figures you quoted, with membership of the EU?

Point the second…and third and fourth
Were the UK inflation figures better, or worse, than that of other developed economies?
Would we have been better, in or out, of the EU at those times?
Was the EU (Common Market) responsible for that inflation?

(I accept that counter-factual analysis is a real problem, but that is where we are)

Oil price led inflation being self sufficient in oil and a major EU oil supplier.Combined with a massive EEC trade deficit since joining.
In which case how else do you make up the shortfalls other than increasing oil exports and printing and borrowing cash.Which sort of explains how a major manufacturing economy self sufficient in energy went from a Tiger economy in 1972 to an IMF bail out basket case by 1979 and hasn’t recovered since.Also bearing in mind our IMF bailout status somehow still made us a net EEC/EU contributor.
The Tory fake BREXIT won’t fix that.

tmcassett:

Franglais:
Balanced? Just like you?
50% of your posts are pro-Brexit, and 50% are anti-Brexit are they?

I’ve never been afraid to say there are downsides to Brexit and it was not and never will be perfect. You just stubbornly refuse to acknowledge anything that is either good or has potential for such, you know like wages for drivers (and other trades for that matter) that have suffered from 18 years of unskilled, unqualified workers being flooded into the country and driving wages down!

And have all EU countries seen the same immigration? Is this an effect of being in the EU? Or was this an effect of the Blair gov taking a different course of action to other EU countries?
Does availability of extra labour force down pay in Germany for truck drivers?

I`ll give you a clue: No and No, would be good answers.

As I have said many times the EU has been blamed for UK choices.

We wont fix the real problem of poor labour protection laws, zero hour contracts, bad minimum pay, pathetic unemployment rates forcing workers into jobs where the gov pays workers benefits to subsidise bad bosses, if we dont recognise that most of the faults are due to UK decisions not EU ones.
Many of these problems don`t exist in other EU countries, so leaving the EU will make no difference to these real issues, will it?

the maoster:
You haven’t addressed Yorkies figures yet Franglais re worldwide inflation . It’s ok, I’ll wait

After …how many?.. posts criticising my use of links and stats, after …how many?..comments “lies, ■■■■ lies, and statistics” you see one link with figures that support your preconceived point of view, and it is “genius”. Scroll up above and look at Adam`s post. Recognise “cherry picking” at all?

Franglais:

tmcassett:

Franglais:
Balanced? Just like you?
50% of your posts are pro-Brexit, and 50% are anti-Brexit are they?

I’ve never been afraid to say there are downsides to Brexit and it was not and never will be perfect. You just stubbornly refuse to acknowledge anything that is either good or has potential for such, you know like wages for drivers (and other trades for that matter) that have suffered from 18 years of unskilled, unqualified workers being flooded into the country and driving wages down!

And have all EU countries seen the same immigration? Is this an effect of being in the EU? Or was this an effect of the Blair gov taking a different course of action to other EU countries?
Does availability of extra labour force down pay in Germany for truck drivers?

I`ll give you a clue: No and No, would be good answers.

As I have said many times the EU has been blamed for UK choices.

We wont fix the real problem of poor labour protection laws, zero hour contracts, bad minimum pay, pathetic unemployment rates forcing workers into jobs where the gov pays workers benefits to subsidise bad bosses, if we dont recognise that most of the faults are due to UK decisions not EU ones.
Many of these problems don`t exist in other EU countries, so leaving the EU will make no difference to these real issues, will it?

Your points are fair. But the fact is the Blair government did not want to put a cap on the amount of immigration into the UK. And we got an influx of EE workers.
It should never of happened and if it did not happen we would still prob be in the EU.

But, I am not gonna blame people for voting for brexit. Even if it was not the European Unions fault but British Policy it is clear the mass immigration is just not popular among the British.

Heck this issue for many is more important then pretty much anything else. A lot of romoaners like to mention about the cost of living crisis and all the prices going up. But if you asked the average joe if they could go back to uncapped immigration or just keep the status quo most would prefer the status quo I am willing to bet.

People like to make out that people voting for brexit were either lied to, dumb, naive or racist.
Personally, I think all they cared about is capping immigration. ■■■■ all else.
And the EU needs to take some responsibility here. Because if they gave David Cameron a better deal that ■■■■■■■ would of never of called a referendum. Or if they gave Mrs May a decent deal then again, it would of not of been such an issue.
But nope. Open borders is such a core concept to them that they could not concede it.

The irony of all this BS is that I am pretty sure Romania and Bulgaria are still not apart of the Schengen Zone because of how fantastically corrupt they are. Yet, Their citizens can travel freely to all areas of the EU. It is also no surpise that many stolen UK vehicles end up in these two countries.

Franglais:

tmcassett:

Franglais:
Balanced? Just like you?
50% of your posts are pro-Brexit, and 50% are anti-Brexit are they?

I’ve never been afraid to say there are downsides to Brexit and it was not and never will be perfect. You just stubbornly refuse to acknowledge anything that is either good or has potential for such, you know like wages for drivers (and other trades for that matter) that have suffered from 18 years of unskilled, unqualified workers being flooded into the country and driving wages down!

And have all EU countries seen the same immigration? Is this an effect of being in the EU? Or was this an effect of the Blair gov taking a different course of action to other EU countries?
Does availability of extra labour force down pay in Germany for truck drivers?

I`ll give you a clue: No and No, would be good answers.

As I have said many times the EU has been blamed for UK choices.

We wont fix the real problem of poor labour protection laws, zero hour contracts, bad minimum pay, pathetic unemployment rates forcing workers into jobs where the gov pays workers benefits to subsidise bad bosses, if we dont recognise that most of the faults are due to UK decisions not EU ones.
Many of these problems don`t exist in other EU countries, so leaving the EU will make no difference to these real issues, will it?

The EU applies free movement rules.Which allows employers to take advantage of importing the cheapest labour from the lowest wage East Euro states.It also applies a single labour market and a single transport market.Again which benefits the use of the lowest east Euro cost base operations.On that note freight journeys between Germany and UK will generally be done by East Euro operators not German or British.While German employers can also take advantage of exactly the same free movement rules it was only a temporary derogation.
The EU is no friend of the workers Thatcher made a bonfire of union rights here on the watch of the EUSSR.We are still an EU state in all but name in that regard.We are still part of the single market and single labour market in which the EU provides free movement of labour.But not a single EU minimum wage, nor even the right to strike, but still you persist with the same old remainer lies.

15 years from Romania joining the EU they are still not fully apart of the Schengen zone due to corruption lol.

Franglais:

tmcassett:

Franglais:
Balanced? Just like you?
50% of your posts are pro-Brexit, and 50% are anti-Brexit are they?

I’ve never been afraid to say there are downsides to Brexit and it was not and never will be perfect. You just stubbornly refuse to acknowledge anything that is either good or has potential for such, you know like wages for drivers (and other trades for that matter) that have suffered from 18 years of unskilled, unqualified workers being flooded into the country and driving wages down!

And have all EU countries seen the same immigration? Is this an effect of being in the EU? Or was this an effect of the Blair gov taking a different course of action to other EU countries?
Does availability of extra labour force down pay in Germany for truck drivers?

Blair and his labour government are the reason we are not in the EU today, the UK got shafted when it came to mass immigration and the effects of that on the UK workforce compared to other EU countries, anyone who thinks otherwise is naive. Adam’s post above perfectly sums it up, we would 100% still be in the EU today if it wasn’t for this.

Franglais:

the maoster:
You haven’t addressed Yorkies figures yet Franglais re worldwide inflation . It’s ok, I’ll wait

After …how many?.. posts criticising my use of links and stats, after …how many?..comments “lies, ■■■■ lies, and statistics” you see one link with figures that support your preconceived point of view, and it is “genius”. Scroll up above and look at Adam`s post. Recognise “cherry picking” at all?

That’s a pretty big cop out if I ever saw one.