Brexit & Speed Limits

Bluey Circles. I guess so. The astrological sign for Libra is a goddess holding a pair of scales, so seems it`s all related.

Buckstones. I havent seen livre used as such in France myself, but am quite prepared to take your word for its use as a weight. I do know that the French refer to our pound sterling as the livre so again it seems it`s all related.

Carryfast. Were assuming that you and Glasgow are at a constant distance one to the other, in this example. If youre moving away there will be a red shift, if approaching a blue shift. The distance between one another is irrelevant.
If youre proposing the following: Light emitted, and split. 1 pulse goes direct source to receptor. 1 pulse goes a longer route, and whilst en-route the receptor is displaced, there will be no frequency shift, providing the receptor is again stationary when light pulse is received. If the receptor is moving (away or towards) the source there will be a frequency (Doppler) shift. I pretty sure thats right, but will listen to any corrections offered.

Franglais:
I wonder how many of the younger among us still think in guineas, pounds, shillings and pence? Hell, how many older people still convert back?? When you all buy fuel do you remember when petrol was Xshillings per gallon to compare with current prices of pence per litre? How crazy is it we cant do with a coupla years pain to get to a better place? Ill bet almost no-one in the Euro Zone converts back to Francs Lire or pesetas any more.

I can assure you that the ability to translate back into “old money” is very useful indeed. It could well be one reason why those of us who are of the age to have that ability, tend to be less profligate with their ready cash than subsequent generations.

The old measaurements aren’t going to go away quietly either, they’re too ingrained in many of the bastions of British popular culture. Not just pints in the pub; football pitch markings may be legally defined in metric but the use of Imperial distances is still the norm in commentary (six yard box for example) and the distances are still effectively Imperial. Cricket, thankfully, has never gone metric. In daily life, I’ve yet to meet a new parent who tells you that their sprog weighed in at 3.2 kilos rather than seven pounds one ounce, nor that the standard feeding method involves a pair of 96.52DD’s, though the mere thought of the latter is a little scary to put it mildly!

One thing does amuse me about the old arguments in favour of keeping pounds, shillings and pence though. Many people totally overlook the fact that the move towards a decimal currency was a necessary progression given the advent of computerisation.

Carryfast:

robert1952:
Even though I’m for ‘out,’ I have to say that I’m with Dolph on this one. We were supposed to go entirely metric in the UK in the early '70s, to go with decimalisation in '71. All the schools were geared up to it and what happened? Successive governments failed to deliver, ensuring that for the next 40 years kids would be taught a mish-mash of metres and miles, gallons and litres etc, thus slowing down maths education. Imperial measurement is in a number of different bases, whereas metric is all in base-10 making life simpler.

Robert

Firstly that’s arguably an unfair comparison between imperial v metric.I was one of those taught in both standards and always preferred imperial in most cases especially close tolerance engineering measured in fractions of an inch rather than millimetres with imperial generally providing easier,finer expressions of measurement.Such as lbs and feet and inches.On that note feet are used more in aviation than metres for example…While I thought that use and teaching of both standards was only a temporary thing during the 1970’s and maybe 80’s not later ?.

When did you do a Mech Eng Degree? :open_mouth:
The first step in any of my equations and calculations was to convert to metric if imperial information was supplied, or mixed in…
I do like Miles as I was brought up with them, but I have to agree that the metric system if far better, as it’s easier!

Sidevalve:

Franglais:
The old measurements aren’t going to go away quietly either, they’re too ingrained in many of the bastions of British popular culture. Not just pints in the pub; football pitch markings may be legally defined in metric but the use of Imperial distances is still the norm in commentary (six yard box for example) and the distances are still effectively Imperial. Cricket, thankfully, has never gone metric. In daily life, I’ve yet to meet a new parent who tells you that their sprog weighed in at 3.2 kilos rather than seven pounds one ounce, nor that the standard feeding method involves a pair of 96.52DD’s, though the mere thought of the latter is a little scary to put it mildly!

One thing does amuse me about the old arguments in favour of keeping pounds, shillings and pence though. Many people totally overlook the fact that the move towards a decimal currency was a necessary progression given the advent of computerisation.

Remember that computers actually operate using binary or hexadecimal notation, not base ten, so they depend on changing inputs into these notations anyway. But I agree entirely with you on the persisting usage of Imperial units, they are how I think, but can convert either way if I have to.

Evil8Beezle:

Carryfast:
Firstly that’s arguably an unfair comparison between imperial v metric.I was one of those taught in both standards and always preferred imperial in most cases especially close tolerance engineering measured in fractions of an inch rather than millimetres with imperial generally providing easier,finer expressions of measurement.Such as lbs and feet and inches.On that note feet are used more in aviation than metres for example…While I thought that use and teaching of both standards was only a temporary thing during the 1970’s and maybe 80’s not later ?.

When did you do a Mech Eng Degree? :open_mouth:
The first step in any of my equations and calculations was to convert to metric if imperial information was supplied, or mixed in…
I do like Miles as I was brought up with them, but I have to agree that the metric system if far better, as it’s easier!

Blimey I wouldn’t have known where to start at degree level.I only did the first parts of C and G mechanical engineering together with ( a lot ) of shop floor practical training.Which I didn’t finish before I ( happily ) walked away from it all to be a driver instead.

As I said metric effectively being a similar compromised idea as imperial ( would have ) been if it had abolished all the different measurement units to be replaced with decimal fractions and multipliers of the yard.IE decimal fractions of milliyards,milliyards,centi yards,yards and kiloyards. :unamused:

damoq:
Euro 6 trucks won’t like running at 50mph max. DPF probably won’t get hot enough causing loads of problems. On the other hand, trucks are designed to run at 56mph for optimal performance. Don’t know how much economy would suffer running at 60mph.

I would have thought what weight the vehicle was running at would have a far greater affect on exhaust temperature than marginally lower speed. In any case you need hills to keep DPFs happy, it is the only time they become seriously hot.

The optimal performance bit and speed is most certainly not just a mpg issue, a big part of the equation will be the time-is-money angle. If mpg was the only consideration then the slower the better (I guess under certain speeds a different engine & drivetrain would need to be developed) But slower will always improve fuel economy.

I suspect Euroville decided on 90kph for a whole host of reasons with safety being a big consideration … However, something very interesting does occur with a truck shaped object between 50 & 60 mph, this is the threshold where wind resistance takes over from rolling resistance as the biggest drain on energy. from what i remember at 55mph the energy being consumed is about 38% wind resistance, 38% rolling resistance & 24% other losses.

Bluey Circles:

damoq:
Euro 6 trucks won’t like running at 50mph max. DPF probably won’t get hot enough causing loads of problems. On the other hand, trucks are designed to run at 56mph for optimal performance. Don’t know how much economy would suffer running at 60mph.

I would have thought what weight the vehicle was running at would have a far greater affect on exhaust temperature than marginally lower speed. In any case you need hills to keep DPFs happy, it is the only time they become seriously hot.

The optimal performance bit and speed is most certainly not just a mpg issue, a big part of the equation will be the time-is-money angle. If mpg was the only consideration then the slower the better (I guess under certain speeds a different engine & drivetrain would need to be developed) But slower will always improve fuel economy.

I suspect Euroville decided on 90kph for a whole host of reasons with safety being a big consideration … However, something very interesting does occur with a truck shaped object between 50 & 60 mph, this is the threshold where wind resistance takes over from rolling resistance as the biggest drain on energy. from what i remember at 55mph the energy being consumed is about 38% wind resistance, 38% rolling resistance & 24% other losses.

Interesting points made there. If you take the Reductio Ad Absurdum argument then reducing the speed all the way to zero will result in zero mpg.
It seems the (very special) vehicles used in the Shell Fuel Challenge run about 20 to 30 kph. No use for a truck on a timed delivery !
Back to basics, and apologies for those who already know this:
Air resistance varies as the square of its velocity. So double velocity means twice the air resistance. Or more usefully maybe: 10% increase in speed means (110%x110%=121%) about 20% more resistance so 20% more fuel used. So ignoring other factors (not good I know) increasing speed from 50mph to 55mph gives a 20% increased fuel usage. That of course only applies in still air on a level road etc etc. and only for that part of a run where that applies. And measuring fuel use in real world situations where advantages (although being important because of our high mileages) are smaller than random variation out of our control (weather, traffic) are notoriously difficult to measure. Im sure many of you know all of this, so please dont think Im teaching my Old Granny new Tricks to ■■■■ or whatever it is.

I prefer mpg to litres per 100 km, but metric is much better when working on tippers. I know if someone wants 5m3 of ballast it’ll be a good 10 to 10.5t needed. (5x good JCB bucketfulls, I rarely need to top up after weighing it :grimacing: ) Cubic yards mean nothing to me whatsoever and I hate it when builders ask for shingle in imperial like 3/4 gravel.

I think metric system is more accurate and easy to use, can’t agree with CF that imperial system is better for accurate measurements, quite the opposite. An inch or an 10th of an inch…grrrrr, way better and easy is 25mm/2,5cm, I “laugh” when I saw in a weapons article the other day - 1/16th of an inch…bloody hell what is that
.
Having lived in countries with both systems and studied metric in school I think is better. Even though I have no problem with pounds, miles, gallons and inches.
On that note I cant stand ounces and stones, who the hell measure their weight in stones in 21 century :unamused: , pounds and kilos are way better. Only when I read something about/in UK article I see stones, never in US for example.

The metric system does have a barsteward son though, and it’s the cm! :imp:
It’s not an SI unit and sadly does lead to quite a few mistakes, as it blurs the lines between m’s and mm’s.

I think we should have converted to metric in one clean act, as having both systems can only be detrimental long term. Yes it may have been hard to start with, but that would now be ancient history, so we wouldn’t have issues like this: Confused about sheet sizes - please help. | Screwfix Community Forum

Evil8Beezle:
The metric system does have a barsteward son though, and it’s the cm! :imp:
It’s not an SI unit and sadly does lead to quite a few mistakes, as it blurs the lines between m’s and mm’s.

I think we should have converted to metric in one clean act, as having both systems can only be detrimental long term. Yes it may have been hard to start with, but that would now be ancient history, so we wouldn’t have issues like this: Confused about sheet sizes - please help. | Screwfix Community Forum

And the right hand drive as well :grimacing: :wink:
I would add sockets and shoe/clothing sizes as well :grimacing:
Still have shoes and pants, both from UK amazon that don’t fit :imp:

I am very comfortable with both systems and can in most cases convert easily in my head, I do prefer mm for accurate work, but there is nothing like feet and inches for visualisation.

As for curious concoctions of both dimensions all rolled up in one measurement, the Tyre is difficult to beat
225/50 R17
now that is a weird kettle of fish
225mm wide and fits on a 17 inch rim ■■?
diameters and circumferences can all be worked out from the tyre size but you have to be able to convert.

Bluey Circles:
I am very comfortable with both systems and can in most cases convert easily in my head, I do prefer mm for accurate work, but there is nothing like feet and inches for visualisation.

As for curious concoctions of both dimensions all rolled up in one measurement, the Tyre is difficult to beat
225/50 R17
now that is a weird kettle of fish
225mm wide and fits on a 17 inch rim ■■?
diameters and circumferences can all be worked out from the tyre size but you have to be able to convert.

If you think that is bad, you should have a look at bicycles tyres and wheel sizes! :open_mouth:
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

But you are right, mixing imperial and metric makes no logic sense! :unamused:

Dolph:
And the right hand drive as well :grimacing: :wink:

Nope, us Brit’s are often out on horse back looking to have a sword fight! :laughing:

Franglais:
So ignoring other factors (not good I know) increasing speed from 50mph to 55mph gives a 20% increased fuel usage.

Not quite. I did a real world test on this earlier in the week. I had to collect the same load 2 nights on the trot from London and deliver to Birmingham. Not pushed for time and hours on the turnaround so had time to waste. Not sure on the exact weight but it was definitely the same weight for both trips. Totally empty we get mid 13s and full up (not necessarily max weight) we get low 9s on the limiter so make of that what you will.

There was a lot of road driving before I hit the M40 so I decided to reset the counter once on the motorway as the destination was only just off the motorway the other end. But it was dark and raining so I accidentally reset it wrong (2 mile out) on the second trip but it’s close enough to get the gist.

90km/h - PPC set at +4 & -3. Had to override it a few times to prevent an overspeed.

80km/h - PPC set at +10 & -3. No need to override as engine brake prevented all overspeeds. Second trip average only 2km/h lower than set cruising speed but first trip 4km/h lower. That’s a surprising amount of eco rolling on the second trip.

At 56 I hit 10.7mpg and at 50 I hit 11.6. That’s a 0.9mpg saving. Sounds impressive at first glance but there are other factors at play here. Firstly, the 50mph journey took approximately 12 minutes longer. Add another 12 minutes for the return journey and that’s another 30 mins over time for me as I’m paid by the hour. So while the company might have saved nearly 4 litres of diesel each way on the slower run, any money they saved was paid to me in wages. And then some.

It really depends on circumstance. If your drivers are salary paid and the load isn’t on some strict time schedule then I guess a slower speed can make a difference. And there’s always the carbon footprint bragging rights. But for hourly paid drivers racking up 100s of miles a day I’d say the faster the better. Within reason obviously. Would like to retry it at 60mph. Maybe after Brexit I will get the chance.

One thing I did notice was the increased amount of gear changes at 50mph. At 56mph the box will hold on far longer going up hill before changing down.

Dolph:
I think metric system is more accurate and easy to use, can’t agree with CF that imperial system is better for accurate measurements, quite the opposite. An inch or an 10th of an inch…grrrrr, way better and easy is 25mm/2,5cm, I “laugh” when I saw in a weapons article the other day - 1/16th of an inch…bloody hell what is that
.
Having lived in countries with both systems and studied metric in school I think is better. Even though I have no problem with pounds, miles, gallons and inches.
On that note I cant stand ounces and stones, who the hell measure their weight in stones in 21 century :unamused: , pounds and kilos are way better. Only when I read something about/in UK article I see stones, never in US for example.

As I said metric is lumbered with the problem of just being multiples or divisions of one unit with no different units to suit different jobs.As for accuracy working to one thousandth or even 1/32 nd of an inch is a lot more sensible than working to the same expressed as fractions of a yard ( or metre in the form of the millimetre ).Which is what engineering in metric is effectively about which might help to explain why Germany lost ze war. :unamused: Or for that matter would you prefer the plane you’re on to be flown to an accuracy measured in feet or metres.As for bridge heights I’d rather be told what height the thing is to the inch rather than have to work out what it is in fractions of a metre ( or yard ) :unamused: :laughing: .While who needs loads of extra numbers to measure a distance in kilo yards ( metres ) when in can be shown with less numbers measured in miles.I really think on this one the Romans had it right and Napoleon can stuff his Continental system. :smiling_imp: :laughing:

Dolph:
who the hell measure their weight in stones in 21 century

I’d say most people in Britain. I don’t know anyone who weighs themselves in kilos. Hospitals weigh folk in kilos but then have to explain the real weight in imperial units to folk who have no clue what they’re talking about. A nurse told me it’s something they’re forced to do and there’s nothing they can do about it. For their records it must be in metric units.

Terry T:

Dolph:
who the hell measure their weight in stones in 21 century

I’d say most people in Britain. I don’t know anyone who weighs themselves in kilos. Hospitals weigh folk in kilos but then have to explain the real weight in imperial units to folk who have no clue what they’re talking about. A nurse told me it’s something they’re forced to do and there’s nothing they can do about it. For their records it must be in metric units.

I’m 93 kilo’s :blush:
But you are right, us Brit’s do prefer using units with lower numbers! :laughing:

Terry T:
Not quite. I did a real world test on this earlier in the week. I had to collect the same load 2 nights on the trot from London and deliver to Birmingham. Not pushed for time and hours on the turnaround so had time to waste. Not sure on the exact weight but it was definitely the same weight for both trips. Totally empty we get mid 13s and full up (not necessarily max weight) we get low 9s on the limiter so make of that what you will.

There was a lot of road driving before I hit the M40 so I decided to reset the counter once on the motorway as the destination was only just off the motorway the other end. But it was dark and raining so I accidentally reset it wrong (2 mile out) on the second trip but it’s close enough to get the gist.

90km/h - PPC set at +4 & -3. Had to override it a few times to prevent an overspeed.

80km/h - PPC set at +10 & -3. No need to override as engine brake prevented all overspeeds. Second trip average only 2km/h lower than set cruising speed but first trip 4km/h lower. That’s a surprising amount of eco rolling on the second trip.

At 56 I hit 10.7mpg and at 50 I hit 11.6. That’s a 0.9mpg saving. Sounds impressive at first glance but there are other factors at play here. Firstly, the 50mph journey took approximately 12 minutes longer. Add another 12 minutes for the return journey and that’s another 30 mins over time for me as I’m paid by the hour. So while the company might have saved nearly 4 litres of diesel each way on the slower run, any money they saved was paid to me in wages. And then some.

It really depends on circumstance. If your drivers are salary paid and the load isn’t on some strict time schedule then I guess a slower speed can make a difference. And there’s always the carbon footprint bragging rights. But for hourly paid drivers racking up 100s of miles a day I’d say the faster the better. Within reason obviously. Would like to retry it at 60mph. Maybe after Brexit I will get the chance.

One thing I did notice was the increased amount of great changes at 50mph. At 56mph the box will hold on far longer going up hill before changing down.

Actually this fits in beautifully, what i believe @franglais was trying to say is a 10% increase in speed will produce a 21% increase in wind resistance. However (and you can see the post I made earlier up thread) wind resistance is not the only game in town, at around mid 50s mph, wind resistance accounts for about 38% of fuel, rolling resistance 38% and other wastages about 24%

So lets look at your figures, when you increase your speed by 10% you used 8.4% more fuel
an increase in speed of 10% would give an increase of 21% wind resistance. Your rolling resistance and other wastages would remain the same so only the fuel needed to overcome wind resistance would increase. So we are only adding 21% to 38% of the fuel you used which would work out at an expected increase in 8% more fuel needed

On a more detailed breakdown…
On your slower journey you used 9.54 galllon, this could be broken down to
3.63 gallon for wind resistance(38%)
3.63 gallon for rolling resistance(38%)
2.28 gallon for other wastage(24%)

a 10% increase in speed would add 21% to only the 3.63gal used to overcome wind resistance = 4.39 gallon

add the other two figure back on
4.39 + 3.63 +2.28 = 10.3 gallons

you used 10.34 gallons

now isnt that astonishingly close to the figure you proved in a real world test.
you

Evil8Beezle:

Terry T:

Dolph:
who the hell measure their weight in stones in 21 century

I’d say most people in Britain. I don’t know anyone who weighs themselves in kilos. Hospitals weigh folk in kilos but then have to explain the real weight in imperial units to folk who have no clue what they’re talking about. A nurse told me it’s something they’re forced to do and there’s nothing they can do about it. For their records it must be in metric units.

I’m 93 kilo’s :blush:
But you are right, us Brit’s do prefer using units with lower numbers! :laughing:

Metric when discussing length and girth. If ya know what I mean :smiley: