I’ve spoken to a bunch of oil companies recently for an article I was writing and they all recommended using an oil analysis programme, especially if using a bypass filter to extend drain intervals.
One thing about bypass (better) filtration is that you can extend drains and it therefore makes economic sense to use synthetic oils, which although they will last the same time, they do a better job of protecting your engine, especially when starting from cold and bring a small fuel saving as a bonus.
There has never been an engine yet that doesn’t benefit from a sump full of clean oil, even pouring it away on a short drain interval will be cheaper in the long run, oil is far cheaper than metal parts…
newmercman:
I’ve spoken to a bunch of oil companies recently for an article I was writing and they all recommended using an oil analysis programme, especially if using a bypass filter to extend drain intervals.
One thing about bypass (better) filtration is that you can extend drains and it therefore makes economic sense to use synthetic oils, which although they will last the same time, they do a better job of protecting your engine, especially when starting from cold and bring a small fuel saving as a bonus.
There has never been an engine yet that doesn’t benefit from a sump full of clean oil, even pouring it away on a short drain interval will be cheaper in the long run, oil is far cheaper than metal parts…
Back in the day an engine always seemed to pull better after an oil change.
I found when using max log book hours, fortnightly oil changes worked in nicely.
Chassis greasing weekly, oil changes and filters fortnightly.
A mate fitted Franz triple stacker by-pass filtration to his B61. The oil stayed yellow, mine would go black first hit of the starter.
So he decided to see how long it could go.
He did his usual filter changes, oil usage top ups plus additives as directed from routinely sent off samples for analysis.
The oil just kept on going.
They’re a dirty, filthy thing to change but a Franz filter does an amazing job.
Then the oil company’s propaganda department said the filtration was too good and was removing their unique additives.
Who can remember Castrol oil with “liquid tungsten”?
So he bailed and went back to fortnightly oil changes.
No matter how long today’s oils can last, whether full synthetic or whatever, it’s vital to do the filters. Once filtration capacity slows due to sludge build up, the by-pass valve in the filter opens and then you’re running on mostly unfiltered oil.
newmercman:
I’ve spoken to a bunch of oil companies recently for an article I was writing and they all recommended using an oil analysis programme, especially if using a bypass filter to extend drain intervals.
One thing about bypass (better) filtration is that you can extend drains and it therefore makes economic sense to use synthetic oils, which although they will last the same time, they do a better job of protecting your engine, especially when starting from cold and bring a small fuel saving as a bonus.
There has never been an engine yet that doesn’t benefit from a sump full of clean oil, even pouring it away on a short drain interval will be cheaper in the long run, oil is far cheaper than metal parts…
Apart from the obvious fouling of the oil with solid particles- carbon from piston blow-by, metals from wear- is there some chemical degradation of the oil as well? For example, if the additives are dissolved in the oil, do they come out of solution, as the oil gets old? Do the additives themselves undergo some chemical change, for example oxidation? Do the higher fractions of oil, in the oil, evaporate after some time at high temperatures? Does some part of the oil get burnt when it comes into contact with the hotter parts of the engine?
Engine oil, a complex product. Some years ago, at about the time synthetic oils were being introduced, I researched an article about lubricants and my main source of info was the technical department and boffins of Gulf oil. Historically the best lubricants were Mobil and its precursor Vacuum Oil, Castrol (whose founder Charles Cheers Wakefield worked for Vacuum Oil), Texaco (Texas Oil Company) and Gulf (who took over Silvertown Lubricants, suppliers of lubricants to the Royal Navy and RAF). Nowadays I don’t think that there is much to choose between any of the major brands. Basically engine oil serves two purposes, to lubricate and to cool. All lubricant blenders start with a base stock oil and it is the additives which enhance its properties. These additives serve several purposes some of which are cleaning (remember new-fangled detergent oils of the early 1960s), anti-corrosion, anti-oxidants, and anti-carbonisation amongst them. Oil being a carbon based compound can carbonise at high temperatures. Engine oil development in particular is continuous to meet the demands of engine development. Incidentally ‘synthetic’ oil is a bit of a misnomer, it is still “engine oil” but the molecular structure is modified by “synthesising” it with natural gas to give different lubricating properties and longer life.
gingerfold:
Engine oil, a complex product. Some years ago, at about the time synthetic oils were being introduced, I researched an article about lubricants and my main source of info was the technical department and boffins of Gulf oil. Historically the best lubricants were Mobil and its precursor Vacuum Oil, Castrol (whose founder Charles Cheers Wakefield worked for Vacuum Oil), Texaco (Texas Oil Company) and Gulf (who took over Silvertown Lubricants, suppliers of lubricants to the Royal Navy and RAF). Nowadays I don’t think that there is much to choose between any of the major brands. Basically engine oil serves two purposes, to lubricate and to cool. All lubricant blenders start with a base stock oil and it is the additives which enhance its properties. These additives serve several purposes some of which are cleaning (remember new-fangled detergent oils of the early 1960s), anti-corrosion, anti-oxidants, and anti-carbonisation amongst them. Oil being a carbon based compound can carbonise at high temperatures. Engine oil development in particular is continuous to meet the demands of engine development. Incidentally ‘synthetic’ oil is a bit of a misnomer, it is still “engine oil” but the molecular structure is modified by “synthesising” it with natural gas to give different lubricating properties and longer life.
Sorry to go off topic on your thread, Dennis.
Don’t apologise- digression onto specific subjects makes the forum what it is. I have come to regard the thread titles simply as inspiration for what follows.
Talking to an oil scientist years ago, I was told that the ingredients are only the beginning- it is the manufacturing process that makes the finished lubricant perform. IIRC, he mentioned something about “cooking” a grease mix more than once, to reduce the propensity of the components to separate out in service. I spoke to an employee of another manufacturer, this time of expensive, specialist lubricants, and he would not divulge one detail of the ingredients or the process involved. I think that there is more to lubricants than meets the eye of a “normal” engineer, even one specialising in tribology- the developments of the past 50 years or so are in the domain of the chemist.
Those smart-alecs who say that the oil companies’ recommendations are bs, and that one oil can be substituted for a cheaper alternative are ignorant fools.
Yes, engine oil is definitely in the category of “you get what you pay for”. One thing to watch out for if you are running older vehicles and engines is that the latest very high spec lubricants are not necessarily the most suitable for such engines. Always take the advice of your lubricants supplier.
And here is the “real Mchoy” bma. sorry I am spoiling the shot,24 years old 1971 !!
[/quote]
This photo is brilliant - A snap shot of time, I can just imagine having a chat with 24yr old Dennis about a job:
Dennis - can you rope & sheet lad?
Me - nope, never needed to,- but I do have a DCPC, ADR & Digi tacho card
Dennis - A Digi what?
Me - I also manage 10mpg running at 44 t aswell
Dennis - How many ton ■■?
I bet there is loads of other stuff that just wouldn’t make sense to me then & you now eh?? LOL
And here is the “real Mchoy” bma. sorry I am spoiling the shot,24 years old 1971 !!
This photo is brilliant - A snap shot of time, I can just imagine having a chat with 24yr old Dennis about a job:
Dennis - can you rope & sheet lad?
Me - nope, never needed to,- but I do have a DCPC, ADR & Digi tacho card
Dennis - A Digi what?
Me - I also manage 10mpg running at 44 t aswell
Dennis - How many ton ■■?
I bet there is loads of other stuff that just wouldn’t make sense to me then & you now eh?? LOL
[/quote]
Aye your probably quite right with your analysis “ADR 1” two completely different eras,but I know which one I would prefer to inhabit Cheers Dennis.
gingerfold:
Yes, engine oil is definitely in the category of “you get what you pay for”. One thing to watch out for if you are running older vehicles and engines is that the latest very high spec lubricants are not necessarily the most suitable for such engines. Always take the advice of your lubricants supplier.
There was an issue with the oils we used because we ran both Turbo’d Scania and Volvos which required the high performance 15W/40 multigrade oil IIRC,we also put this grade into the ■■■■■■■ engines.But we were told by Gardner to just use a cheaper single grade oil in their engines,we did for a while then IIRC we just used the higher spec oil across the board because the last thing we wanted was to have the cheaper single grade get into the Turbo’d engines.Through the years we used Gulf oil,Silkolene for a bit but mainly Shell and in later years BP.Cheers Bewick.
newmercman:
I’ve spoken to a bunch of oil companies recently for an article I was writing and they all recommended using an oil analysis programme, especially if using a bypass filter to extend drain intervals.
One thing about bypass (better) filtration is that you can extend drains and it therefore makes economic sense to use synthetic oils, which although they will last the same time, they do a better job of protecting your engine, especially when starting from cold and bring a small fuel saving as a bonus.
There has never been an engine yet that doesn’t benefit from a sump full of clean oil, even pouring it away on a short drain interval will be cheaper in the long run, oil is far cheaper than metal parts…
Apart from the obvious fouling of the oil with solid particles- carbon from piston blow-by, metals from wear- is there some chemical degradation of the oil as well? For example, if the additives are dissolved in the oil, do they come out of solution, as the oil gets old? Do the additives themselves undergo some chemical change, for example oxidation? Do the higher fractions of oil, in the oil, evaporate after some time at high temperatures? Does some part of the oil get burnt when it comes into contact with the hotter parts of the engine?
When using a bypass filter you have to use an Oil Analysis Programme too. The reports will tell you when you need to change the oil, the contaminant metals are measured in parts per million and a normal progression of 1 part per 1000miles is acceptable, even with a million miles there would only be 1000ppm in the oil, it can easily cope with holding that in suspension.
The TBN or total base number will tell you if the oil has deteriorated to the point where it loses lubricity, but most engines use a gallon or so every 10,000miles and that make up oil restores the TBN and also the additive package. This does deplete over time, but there are also primary filters available with a time release additive package to ensure all the good stuff is replenished to keep the oil up to spec.
Oxidation can be a problem, it creates an acidic environment inside the engine, but a healthy engine should not suffer from this to the point where it renders the oil useless.
I’m a firm believer in oil bypass filters and oil analysis, not only do the filters keep the oil clean meaning it can stay in longer and save money, the cleaner oil also protects the engine far better.
An oil sample will also reveal a lot about the health of your engine and can help you diagnose faults and identify problems before they reveal themselves unexpectedly by something going horribly wrong.
We tend to think of lubricants as a secondary business for the major oil companies, but the mineral oils based lubricants market pre-dated the liquid petroleum market by almost 100 years. Vacuum Oil of USA, later Mobil, started exporting lube oil to GB in the 1870s and later opened its own blending plant at Birkenhead and then a second one at Wandsworth. Vacuum Oil was the market leader in those days and as Mobil it didn’t enter the UK fuels market until after WW2 when it built a refinery at Coryton, Essex, in the early 1950s. Remember that the lubricants market was massive even before the widespread acceptance and use of internal combustion engines. The railway companies were large consumers of lubricatiing oil in the days of steam locomotives. An express steam loco used several gallons of lube oil every day. Gulf Oil of USA bought Silvertown Lubricants in the 1930s, Silvertown was also a major supplier to the railways and RAF and Royal Navy. Texaco was a lubricants only supplier in the UK market until it bought Regent Petroleum in 1947. Regent had a reputation for high quality fuels and it had been formed in 1931 after a merger between Burt, Boulton, and Hayward of the Isle of Dogs and Trinidad Leaseholds Oil Company. Regent fuel was re-branded as Texaco in the 1960s. Also, most large industrial towns had lube oil suppliers and blenders for their local industry. In Bolton we had Thomas Moscrop, “Lion Oils” brand. Remember, for example, a cotton mill used plenty of oil. Virtually all of the smaller lube oil specialists have now disappeared, along with the industry they supplied.
I only ever used one “Lubricant only” supplier for a while and that was Silkolene from Derby IIRC,and that was as a result of Gulf OIl pulling out of the derv market in the late '70’s early 80’s and their local salesman was a chap called Bob Fitzgerald,even though he was a “suverner” he was a decent bloke to deal with.However as our fleet grew together with a corresponding increase in Derv usage both Shell and BP were just as interested in our lube oil business as they were in the Derv so I reluctantly stopped using Silkolene as the Majors prices were a lot less and I could really trim our derv price if I gave them the lube oil.The profit per litre they make off lube oil is many times more than derv and if they ■■■■■■ me about on the derv price they didn’t get any lube orders Shell tried very hard to get all our business,which I was reluctant to give at the time but I came within an “ace” of doing a very attractive deal with them,then the ■■■■■■■■ went on strike at Shell so I was saved by the skin of my teeth They never tried again and as I had always made sure that our derv came from different terminals exactly to avoid disruption our supply never failed i.e. BP Partington,Shell Stanlow and secondary suppliers Texaco Trafford Park and Phillips Teeside.Happy Days Bewick.
As far as I know Phillips are still about as DERV only suppliers to fleets and bus companies etc. During the fuel protest “disruption” in 2001 I was at Turners and was handed the task of sourcing fuel from wherever I could. Things were getting really desperate and for example any driver within 50 miles of Avonmouth was sent to Watsons at Avonmouth to fill up, as their terminal was 24/7 and they seemed to have good stock levels. I used to go into the office about 6.30 am and during the “disruption” my first job was to check the bunkering tanks in the yard at Newmarket to see what had been drawn off overnight and if any scheduled deliveries had happened. From memory I think we could stock something like 40,000 gallons of DERV and 10,000 gallons of Red Diesel for the fridges. By then the government had relaxed all the rules and we, as food chain suppliers, could use red diesel in road going vehicles. Also any fuel tankers managing to get out of the terminals but with fuel for supermarket forecourts, such as Texco, Asda, Sainsbury etc were being directed to such as Turners. On the last day of the “disruption” I did my early morning stock check and we were very low, with a couple of promised overnight deliveries not arriving. I was about to go into the office when a Phillips tanker drove into the yard. Very odd, we didn’t use Phillips but the driver had been scheduled to deliver to a bus depot at Bury St. Edmunds but for some reason couldn’t make the delivery due to the bus company’s tanks being full. He said he had come to us on his own initiative, but I suspect that it was a directive from shadowy government forces that sent him to us. Anyhow, I told him to pump into our tank and gave him a good tip for using his “initiative”!! That fuel protest was very interesting, if it had kept going for another 24 hours the transport industry would have ground to a halt.
Phillips(Petroplus as they were last named) finished a couple of years ago now.Imperial Tankers from teeside run quite a few of their tanks but without a name on them,who supplies the fuel I do not know.At one time a few haulier pulled for Phillips.Townson Tankers,Sadler,Stiller,Imperial,to name just a few.
Stanfield:
Phillips(Petroplus as they were last named) finished a couple of years ago now.Imperial Tankers from teeside run quite a few of their tanks but without a name on them,who supplies the fuel I do not know.At one time a few haulier pulled for Phillips.Townson Tankers,Sadler,Stiller,Imperial,to name just a few.
A few more to the list John,Harold Wood,Cleveland Tankers,John Forman,P&O,Suttons.As you know further south they used some of the same companies-Sadler,Stiller,later to become one company,Further south one i remember was Suckling transport,In Scotland there was Brogans and IRC Stiller ran a few in the 80s Vic.
gingerfold:
As far as I know Phillips are still about as DERV only suppliers to fleets and bus companies etc. During the fuel protest “disruption” in 2001 I was at Turners and was handed the task of sourcing fuel from wherever I could. Things were getting really desperate and for example any driver within 50 miles of Avonmouth was sent to Watsons at Avonmouth to fill up, as their terminal was 24/7 and they seemed to have good stock levels. I used to go into the office about 6.30 am and during the “disruption” my first job was to check the bunkering tanks in the yard at Newmarket to see what had been drawn off overnight and if any scheduled deliveries had happened. From memory I think we could stock something like 40,000 gallons of DERV and 10,000 gallons of Red Diesel for the fridges. By then the government had relaxed all the rules and we, as food chain suppliers, could use red diesel in road going vehicles. Also any fuel tankers managing to get out of the terminals but with fuel for supermarket forecourts, such as Texco, Asda, Sainsbury etc were being directed to such as Turners. On the last day of the “disruption” I did my early morning stock check and we were very low, with a couple of promised overnight deliveries not arriving. I was about to go into the office when a Phillips tanker drove into the yard. Very odd, we didn’t use Phillips but the driver had been scheduled to deliver to a bus depot at Bury St. Edmunds but for some reason couldn’t make the delivery due to the bus company’s tanks being full. He said he had come to us on his own initiative, but I suspect that it was a directive from shadowy government forces that sent him to us. Anyhow, I told him to pump into our tank and gave him a good tip for using his “initiative”!! That fuel protest was very interesting, if it had kept going for another 24 hours the transport industry would have ground to a halt.
Not being pickey but I think the protests were in 2000 (September) as I was stuck in Devon due to no BP agency diesel being available and had to park in Exeter services, then at about 4am they had a delivery and I was able to buy enough ( it was an ESSO forecourt) to get back to our Southampton depot. How do I remember the year? the next day I was getting married (again) and it was getting touch and go as to whether or not I would make it. I did btw
IIRC the quality of Phillips derv was somewhat lower than the Majors which resulted in lower MPG,and as I found out,contrary to what the Phillips salesman assured me, their prices worked out the same as Shell and BP,so who was taking the ■■■■ ? Cheers Bewick.
Bewick:
IIRC the quality of Phillips derv was somewhat lower than the Majors which resulted in lower MPG,and as I found out,contrary to what the Phillips salesman assured me, their prices worked out the same as Shell and BP,so who was taking the ■■■■ ? Cheers Bewick.
Bewick:
IIRC the quality of Phillips derv was somewhat lower than the Majors which resulted in lower MPG,and as I found out,contrary to what the Phillips salesman assured me, their prices worked out the same as Shell and BP,so who was taking the ■■■■ ? Cheers Bewick.
Cheers Dennis.
and as I had always made sure that our derv came from different terminals exactly to avoid disruption our supply never failed i.e. BP Partington,Shell Stanlow and secondary suppliers Texaco Trafford Park and Phillips Teeside.Happy Days Bewick.
