Themoocher:
I also don’t see what the problem with trackers are either unless your ripping the arse out it in a lay by for hours everyday and got something to hide.
Firstly to answer your other post, I didn’t say wages in the 80s were as you said 'amazing, but the pay structure was fairer and better for the driver. Ok fair enough in the 80s regs were flounted , but in real terms from a pay point of view you could make a decent living running legal, but drivers got greedy.
As for your tracker comment, you have not got a problem with trackers,… That is because it is normal to you, so you know nothing else, (as I assume by the tone of your posts that you are comparitively fairly new to the job)
The argument you put up about it being ok unless you have something to hide is a bit naive. How far would you be willing to go with that argument exactly? For instance if your boss confronted you with a rubber glove and lube, and said we are searching drivers for hidden drugs, would you drop em, bend over and say, warm your fingers boss, I’ve nothing to hide.
Highly unlikely, ott, and a bit dramatic granted, but you see my point.
I also have nothing to hide but was severely ■■■■■■ off when my first tracker was fitted about 12 yrs ago.
I notice the… ‘‘If you don’t like it work in a shop/ bring it on I’m on good money for 15/it’s always been like this’’ guys are now suddenly conspicuous by their absence on this.
Could it be my post this morning, (ie. The transport history lesson ) giving some home truths and facts, was a bit of a realisation lightbulb moment for some of them, and they have finally seen things for what they REALLY are, and not what they have been led to believe?
robroy:
I notice the… ‘‘If you don’t like it work in a shop/ bring it on I’m on good money for 15/it’s always been like this’’ guys are now suddenly conspicuous by their absence on this.
Could it be my post this morning, (ie. The transport history lesson ) giving some home truths and facts, was a bit of a realisation lightbulb moment for some of them, and they have finally seen things for what they REALLY are, and not what they have been led to believe?
On the basis that some of them would obviously prefer 9 hours off between shifts to 12 and tachos and trackers to log books I don’t think the light bulb moment has quite happened yet.
robroy:
I notice the… ‘‘If you don’t like it work in a shop/ bring it on I’m on good money for 15/it’s always been like this’’ guys are now suddenly conspicuous by their absence on this.
Could it be my post this morning, (ie. The transport history lesson ) giving some home truths and facts, was a bit of a realisation lightbulb moment for some of them, and they have finally seen things for what they REALLY are, and not what they have been led to believe?[/quota
puts things into perspective,Nothings going to sway me 15 hours are way over the top nine hours rest is not enough, Change is needed in my opinion, But it will only change through us the drivers wanting it to change,
The problem is everyone has different ideas and what suits some won’t suit others.
I’m quite happy earning what I earn for what I do.
There no point in moaning about shifts and work on a forum.
If you don’t want todo the hours don’t do them. Get a new driving job that suits.
If you don’t want to drive find a different job.
keepthefaith:
,Nothings going to sway me 15 hours are way over the top nine hours rest is not enough, Change is needed in my opinion, But it will only change through us the drivers wanting it to change,
Yeh but you always get the ‘‘I only need 5 hrs kip’’ superstars, then it becomes a competition…‘‘5? I only need4’’
So as long as these guys are working alongside us it will never change
Drivers will not only put up with any old crap and conditions in this job, but worse try and justify them to other drivers
. Me? …I just keep my head down, do not teararse about, mostly do 13 or less spreadovers, proper adequate rests, do not succumb to attempted push pressure, park only where there are facilities, and suit myself,… but still manage to get the job done, the same as the heroes.
Thing is planners have got into their tiny gerbil heads that 15 hours means they can plan upto 15 hours then the driver by some sort of miricale will find a well equipped layby just as the time runs out .insted of planning a more sensibable day and only when thing go ■■■■ up you run into your 15 trouble is its become the NORM instead of the EXCEPTION ok if you have a heavy driving day(with few or no drops) you can plan 10 h drive in 15 shift but its not so much usual in the uk than it is in euro land ie: 600/700 km or more
Themoocher:
I also don’t see what the problem with trackers are either unless your ripping the arse out it in a lay by for hours everyday and got something to hide.
Firstly to answer your other post, I didn’t say wages in the 80s were as you said 'amazing, but the pay structure was fairer and better for the driver. Ok fair enough in the 80s regs were flounted , but in real terms from a pay point of view you could make a decent living running legal, but drivers got greedy.
But then you can’t win.
In the 80s when log books and paper tachos the hours weren’t enough so most people were running bent.
Now the rules have been changed to give extra hours and flexibility.
I’m not saying this To you specifically I’m just saying in general everyone can’t have it both ways.
Themoocher:
I also don’t see what the problem with trackers are either unless your ripping the arse out it in a lay by for hours everyday and got something to hide.
Firstly to answer your other post, I didn’t say wages in the 80s were as you said 'amazing, but the pay structure was fairer and better for the driver. Ok fair enough in the 80s regs were flounted , but in real terms from a pay point of view you could make a decent living running legal, but drivers got greedy.
But then you can’t win.
In the 80s when log books and paper tachos the hours weren’t enough so most people were running bent.
Now the rules have been changed to give extra hours and flexibility.
I’m not saying this To you specifically I’m just saying in general everyone can’t have it both ways.
Firstly the idea that log books meant running bent is a total myth.They actually provided the situation of more autonomy for the driver,for the driver’s benefit,regards rest not the guvnor’s.Which is why the Union was actually ( rightly ) against the introduction of tachos.
While the idea of tachos was/is all about creating a system of inflexibility from the driver’s point of view and control from the point of view of the guvnor and inter modal competition.While appeasing the worst aspect in the industry that uses silly hours to compensate for too much time spent with the wheels not turning.Which explains the ridiculous discrepancy between driving time limits v overall shift time using the equally ridiculous and dangerous ‘reduced daily rest’ provision.
keepthefaith:
,Nothings going to sway me 15 hours are way over the top nine hours rest is not enough, Change is needed in my opinion, But it will only change through us the drivers wanting it to change,
Yeh but you always get the ‘‘I only need 5 hrs kip’’ superstars, then it becomes a competition…‘‘5? I only need4’’
So as long as these guys are working alongside us it will never change
Drivers will not only put up with any old crap and conditions in this job, but worse try and justify them to other drivers
Until the zb hits the fan in the form of a causing death by dangerous charge if/when such stupid sleep ideas catch up with them and they run into something because they were either asleep or not quick enough on the brakes.
keepthefaith:
,Nothings going to sway me 15 hours are way over the top nine hours rest is not enough, Change is needed in my opinion, But it will only change through us the drivers wanting it to change,
Yeh but you always get the ‘‘I only need 5 hrs kip’’ superstars, then it becomes a competition…‘‘5? I only need4’’
So as long as these guys are working alongside us it will never change
Drivers will not only put up with any old crap and conditions in this job, but worse try and justify them to other drivers
Until the zb hits the fan in the form of a causing death by dangerous charge if/when such stupid sleep ideas catch up with them and they run into something because they were either asleep or not quick enough on the brakes.
I don’t see what your getting at I would rather 9 hours rest just say 7 n half hours sleep.
Than do a 12 hour night shift on the first night as you can’t sleep much during the day before your first shift.
Well there is some hope to the end of the 15hr duty period. If we leave the EU then maybe we’ll return to GB Domestic Regulations and be back to a decent 11hrs.
keepthefaith:
Nothings going to sway me 15 hours are way over the top nine hours rest is not enough, Change is needed in my opinion, But it will only change through us the drivers wanting it to change,
I would agree that 9 hours rest is not enough, but then again I am a day driver who has a 30 minute commute home everynight and then back again in the morning. Take off time for having tea and settling down doing ‘home stuff’ and theres only room for 5/6 hours kip. However, meanwhile there is a long distance tramper who just wants to crack on with the next leg of his trek across Europe, for whom 9 hours is plenty because his bed is right behind him.
For this very reason, I wouldn’t campaign for 15 hour shifts or reduced rests to be banned because it would unnecessarily compromise productivity for some drivers in certain situations. Plus like others have said, if your having a bad day it’s nice knowing you have that 15 hours to get back.
There are plenty of driving jobs out there which don’t ask for maximum hours out of drivers, you’ve just got to find them because we will never change the rest. There will always be a pool of drivers prepared to work crazy hours because of the ££££££, £8ph might sound crap but x70 + OT premiums & allowances makes for a pay packet many would never be able to achieve outside of driving.
That is precisely what annoys me about the 9 hour rest Rob. Its fine if your bed is 6 inches behind your seat but not for those of us who live a fair distance from work and go home between shifts. My argument is that it is 9 hours REST and not 9 hours between shifts. Commuting is not working time per say but I dont regard it as rest either. 9 hours rest means 9 hours athome in my book
If i’m running back to the yard and there’s nothing to run back out with,i remind them that as well as needing 7 hours sleep…i also need to comute,bathe and dine…and thus won’t be doing any"just nips"
scanny77:
That is precisely what annoys me about the 9 hour rest Rob. Its fine if your bed is 6 inches behind your seat but not for those of us who live a fair distance from work and go home between shifts. My argument is that it is 9 hours REST and not 9 hours between shifts. Commuting is not working time per say but I dont regard it as rest either. 9 hours rest means 9 hours athome in my book
But it is just the same for trampers, unless of course you are the work/sleep only type that frequent lay bys only, which I aint If you are crack on you’re welcome to it.
You park up, unwind for 15 mins. Go for a shower, or wash.
Out for a meal pint, chill a bit, back to cab…approx 2 and half to 3 hrs.
In bunk, you don’t just switch off like a light, so you get about 5 to 5 and half hrs real sleep to re.start a 13/15 hr shift.
That is why I treat the 9hrs as a minimum as it is, …not a maximum/target.
I know guys that genuinely believe that they only have 2 options of rest period, 9 or 11, and they can not go over it, I kid you not.
I know a lot will disagree, but I don’t treat the job like some endurance excercise.
Health and safety my arse.
Carryfast:
Until the zb hits the fan in the form of a causing death by dangerous charge if/when such stupid sleep ideas catch up with them and they run into something because they were either asleep or not quick enough on the brakes.
I don’t see what your getting at I would rather 9 hours rest just say 7 n half hours sleep.
Than do a 12 hour night shift on the first night as you can’t sleep much during the day before your first shift.
Even in the case of trampers I’d doubt that a 9 hours reduced rest period equates to 7.5 hours sleep IE as I said no one realistically has just a 45 minute period between finishing and going to sleep or waking up and starting work.That’s even if 7.5 hours sleep itself is considered ideal between shifts.
As for shift work trying to change your body clock on the job is really an unrealistic unsafe idea.Luckily I only did permanent nights or days.In the case of nightwork it was only usually in the case of returning from holidays where I needed to swap from day back to nights.In which case I did that at home not at work by staying up all night and sleeping during the day before going back to work.While unfortunately weekends were just a case of don’t bother trying to change sleep patterns.
Regardless of the above a 9 hour rest period between shifts won’t realistically provide sufficient sleep to provide the type of margin needed to safely do a typical driving shift.Which is the issue in this case.
rob22888:
Plus like others have said, if your having a bad day it’s nice knowing you have that 15 hours to get back.
The fact is the issue isn’t about extending the day to 15 hours on an isolated basis.The issue is all about ‘reduced rest period’ ‘between shifts’.IE it’s not about finishing late it’s about finishing late and then having to ‘start’ ‘early’ afterwards.
The driving reduced rest system is bloody antiquated with regards to modern fatigue understanding. It’s not the 15 hour days that are the problem, it’s the legal minimum to take only 9 hours rest that offers no legal protection for an equivalent rest. How bizarre a system that permits you work a longer duty, yet the legal protection only dicates a minimum rest period than is LESS than stipulated on a shorter day. Standard aviation rest with no time zone change is minimum of 11 hours off OR length of proceeding flight duty period if longer.
With a heavy crew you can be on duty nearly 20 hours. 24 from pick up to drop off, but you may get far less rest as positioning doesn’t count as flight duty. I find it staggeringly shattering compared to when driving 15 hours in a lorry. The EU has put its grubby office mitts on the flight time limitations rules that are about to make some positively dangerous changes, so absolutely no hope for Eurocrats changing driving regs for the safer. It’s all about the Money and appeasing commerce. Absolute arrsowls.
) giving some home truths and facts, was a bit of a realisation lightbulb moment for some of them, and they have finally seen things for what they REALLY are, and not what they have been led to believe?
