theguardian.com/technology/ … us-vehicle
Cause…Human truck driver with attitude! 
Keep up at the back.
Apart from your obvious glee, there was a programme on R4 tonight that featured on automation. For all the tea in China I fail to see the benefit of huge losses of ordinary jobs for the common man. All of the bus drivers,taxi & van drivers, postmen, HGV drivers, warehousemen, packers, pickers who will ultimately lose their only chance of employment to put food on their families tables.
How will the masses cope in the future under this race to the bottom, I am so friggin glad I wont be around to see the diminishment of of the ordinary working man.
The words to a song I heard back in 1969 could never be true surely !
Perhaps this hadn’t been installed in its programing:
Twoninety88:
How will the masses cope in the future under this race to the bottom, I am so friggin glad I wont be around to see the diminishment of of the ordinary working man.
People in the future hopefully will not have to endure the task of having to do mundane jobs, look back in history and see how things have shaped up since children were been shoved up chimneys and riveters used to swing heavy hammers to form each individual rivet in the hull of a ship. The list is endless, just because these jobs went, it doesn’t mean those men ever worked again. People re skill and find alternate employment, this isn’t a race to the bottom, we are already in that one.
UKtramp:
Twoninety88:
How will the masses cope in the future under this race to the bottom, I am so friggin glad I wont be around to see the diminishment of of the ordinary working man.People in the future hopefully will not have to endure the task of having to do mundane jobs, look back in history and see how things have shaped up since children were been shoved up chimneys and riveters used to swing heavy hammers to form each individual rivet in the hull of a ship. The list is endless, just because these jobs went, it doesn’t mean those men ever worked again. People re skill and find alternate employment, this isn’t a race to the bottom, we are already in that one.
You know the score fella. Some cannot see past the end of their noses!
Dr Damon:
UKtramp:
Twoninety88:
How will the masses cope in the future under this race to the bottom, I am so friggin glad I wont be around to see the diminishment of of the ordinary working man.People in the future hopefully will not have to endure the task of having to do mundane jobs, look back in history and see how things have shaped up since children were been shoved up chimneys and riveters used to swing heavy hammers to form each individual rivet in the hull of a ship. The list is endless, just because these jobs went, it doesn’t mean those men ever worked again. People re skill and find alternate employment, this isn’t a race to the bottom, we are already in that one.
You know the score fella. Some cannot see past the end of their noses!
There you go again describing yourself again dozy 2 , your gas do you not read your post before you send it Walter
Just proves as long as a single human is behind the wheel of a single vehicle, fully self driving cars are impossible. A Fully automated Road system is required for it to work.
We can’t even fully automate trains even though we had the technology decades ago due to human stupidity and their willingness to jump on tracks.
Twoninety88:
Apart from your obvious glee, there was a programme on R4 tonight that featured on automation. For all the tea in China I fail to see the benefit of huge losses of ordinary jobs for the common man. All of the bus drivers,taxi & van drivers, postmen, HGV drivers, warehousemen, packers, pickers who will ultimately lose their only chance of employment to put food on their families tables.
How will the masses cope in the future under this race to the bottom
When we got rid of horse and cart those people who would have operated them ended up going onto motor vehicles. And when the motor vehicle came along it meant new kinds of jobs were created along with them, mechanics, people operating petrol stations, people making and supplying petrol pumps and those building and operating the refineries.
They will cope like previous generations over centuries in the entirety of human history have, they’ll end up doing something else in whatever new field is created by the advancement of technology. For all we know 30 years down the line we could be flying in space the same as you take a trip on a coach, we could be colonising the moon so there’ll be a whole raft of jobs created around that.
Dr Damon:
UKtramp:
Twoninety88:
How will the masses cope in the future under this race to the bottom, I am so friggin glad I wont be around to see the diminishment of of the ordinary working man.People in the future hopefully will not have to endure the task of having to do mundane jobs, look back in history and see how things have shaped up since children were been shoved up chimneys and riveters used to swing heavy hammers to form each individual rivet in the hull of a ship. The list is endless, just because these jobs went, it doesn’t mean those men ever worked again. People re skill and find alternate employment, this isn’t a race to the bottom, we are already in that one.
You know the score fella. Some cannot see past the end of their noses!
And if ever a post confirms to me you two are one and the same, then this is it.
Twoninety88:
And if ever a post confirms to me you two are one and the same, then this is it.
If someone shares an interest in the same subject or agrees with something, could you explain why you think they are the same one? I am always been told I am different people on here, in which case I must have lots of multiple accounts. Could you also explain the benefit of having multiple accounts to me because I do not have multiple accounts nor could I be that bothered.
Conor:
When we got rid of horse and cart those people who would have operated them ended up going onto motor vehicles. And when the motor vehicle came along it meant new kinds of jobs were created along with them, mechanics, people operating petrol stations, people making and supplying petrol pumps and those building and operating the refineries.
Just as importantly, new types of consumption were created, or existing categories enlarged. Most jobs created were not just ancilliary to the motor car. The economy could now support more doctors (and therefore nurses, stethoscope-makers, receptionists, medical-imaging-device makers, journal writers), teachers (and therefore more dinner ladies, pencil-makers, chalk-miners, desk-makers), students and academics (therefore more book-printers), astronauts (and therefore more machinists, rocket scientists, gas-refinery operators, program managers), actors and musicians (and therefore A&R men, instrument makers, camera operators, sound engineers, makeup artists).
And these new occupations are all largely inderdependent on each other too - for example, doctors have to be taught, teachers require medical treatment, medical treatment requires academic research, learning is more worthwhile if people live longer, everyone wants wonder and entertainment.
It can all be summed up that automation produces economic complexity and cultural enrichment, and a shift towards organisational, creative, and expert job roles.
But it goes to prove John Stuart Mill’s quip that labour-saving devices never saved anyone a minute’s labour.
Rjan:
Conor:
When we got rid of horse and cart those people who would have operated them ended up going onto motor vehicles. And when the motor vehicle came along it meant new kinds of jobs were created along with them, mechanics, people operating petrol stations, people making and supplying petrol pumps and those building and operating the refineries.Just as importantly, new types of consumption were created, or existing categories enlarged.
That all seems to be a contradiction.When we got rid of horses some,but not all,of the people who drove them,like my grandfather,went on to drive motor vehicles.In addition to some of the support trades,related to horse drawn transport,sometimes being interchangeable.But which more often were taken on by a new generation of automotive/aerospace engineers starting from a clean sheet of born and gifted,not learn’t,engineering skills like his son.In this case we’re dealing with something in which that transition won’t be anything like that.My grandfather obviously couldn’t have made any transition from driving horses to driving autonomous vehicles just as today’s generation of motor transport drivers won’t either because by definition those jobs will be gone.While the technology involved will mostly be reserved to a very select bunch of robotics nerds.With nothing like the increased opportunities which the birth of the automotive and aerospace industries industries opened up in the day.Even to the point of automotive industry and aerospace workers often working in and transferring skills between the two.But in general the move to automotive industry on land and aero industry in the air,meant a new world for a new generation with no place for those of that old era either human nor animal both being mostly redundant.
While make no mistake automating the transport industry can only create a net loss to the economy in terms of the loss of job opportunities for humans.Which will probably be the tipping point at which automation removes more jobs from the economy than it creates.Thereby finally creating and making real the conundrum that robots don’t buy stuff and nor do unemployed workers.
That’s assuming that,going by logic of computers can’t programme themselves and robotics engineers aren’t ‘drivers’ and the mantra of garbage in garbage out and FD’s confirmation that even the way more advanced aerospace industry hasn’t yet taught computers to ‘fly’,that the things will actually even be able to ‘drive’.Leaving the situation of all the wasted investment in robotics having done nothing but wrecked the economy by removing the jobs of loads of workers and then can’t even do the job as well as humans having done so.
Carryfast:
Rjan:
Conor:
When we got rid of horse and cart those people who would have operated them ended up going onto motor vehicles. And when the motor vehicle came along it meant new kinds of jobs were created along with them, mechanics, people operating petrol stations, people making and supplying petrol pumps and those building and operating the refineries.Just as importantly, new types of consumption were created, or existing categories enlarged.
That all seems to be a contradiction.When we got rid of horses some,but not all,of the people who drove them,like my grandfather,went on to drive motor vehicles.In addition to some of the support trades,related to horse drawn transport,sometimes being interchangeable.But which more often were taken on by a new generation of automotive/aerospace engineers starting from a clean sheet of born and gifted,not learn’t,engineering skills like his son.In this case we’re dealing with something in which that transition won’t be anything like that.My grandfather obviously couldn’t have made any transition from driving horses to driving autonomous vehicles just as today’s generation of motor transport drivers won’t either because by definition those jobs will be gone.While the technology involved will mostly be reserved to a very select bunch of robotics nerds.With nothing like the increased opportunities which the birth of the automotive and aerospace industries industries opened up in the day.Even to the point of automotive industry and aerospace workers often working in and transferring skills between the two.But in general the move to automotive industry on land and aero industry in the air,meant a new world for a new generation with no place for those of that old era either human nor animal both being mostly redundant.
While make no mistake automating the transport industry can only create a net loss to the economy in terms of the loss of job opportunities for humans.Which will probably be the tipping point at which automation removes more jobs from the economy than it creates.Thereby finally creating and making real the conundrum that robots don’t buy stuff and nor do unemployed workers.
That’s assuming that,going by logic of computers can’t programme themselves and robotics engineers aren’t ‘drivers’ and the mantra of garbage in garbage out and FD’s confirmation that even the way more advanced aerospace industry hasn’t yet taught computers to ‘fly’,that the things will actually even be able to ‘drive’.Leaving the situation of all the wasted investment in robotics having done nothing but wrecked the economy by removing the jobs of loads of workers and then can’t even do the job as well as humans having done so.
The problem is that, dynamically, people with adequate incomes derived from very little work do not just sit around. They create new leisure activities amongst themselves, or consume more goods, etc, and that is what creates the new jobs.
But those jobs will probably go to robots…then what happens?
Rjan:
Carryfast:
Thereby finally creating and making real the conundrum that robots don’t buy stuff and nor do unemployed workers.The problem is that, dynamically, people with adequate incomes derived from very little work do not just sit around. They create new leisure activities amongst themselves, or consume more goods, etc, and that is what creates the new jobs.
Firstly the incomes of those employed in the new service and office based economy can only be sustained by wealth creating industry and that industry is still mostly reliant on the jobs and resulting consumption of those working in it obviously with transport jobs taking an even larger role in that since the outsourcing of manufacturing to places like the far East.
IE we’re then left with the perfect storm of a manufacturing sector that’s already been decimated by foreign imports.Then automation taking too many jobs from not only from what remains of that manufacturing sector but also then the transport sector leading to a resulting collapse in the market demand created by the even greater level of redundant workers and the automated sectors now not generating any wealth because they’ve lost too much of their previous market.
The fact is we can’t sustain an economy based on restaurant and shop workers serving stuff to pen pushers and robotics engineers with everyone else on the dole unable to buy the products produced by the the robots who’ve now taken what remains of their jobs. 
Carryfast:
Rjan:
Carryfast:
Thereby finally creating and making real the conundrum that robots don’t buy stuff and nor do unemployed workers.The problem is that, dynamically, people with adequate incomes derived from very little work do not just sit around. They create new leisure activities amongst themselves, or consume more goods, etc, and that is what creates the new jobs.
Firstly the incomes of those employed in the new service and office based economy can only be sustained by wealth creating industry and that industry is still mostly reliant on the jobs and resulting consumption of those working in it obviously with transport jobs taking an even larger role in that since the outsourcing of manufacturing to places like the far East.
IE we’re then left with the perfect storm of a manufacturing sector that’s already been decimated by foreign imports.Then automation taking too many jobs from not only from what remains of that manufacturing sector but also then the transport sector leading to a resulting collapse in the market demand created by the even greater level of redundant workers and the automated sectors now not generating any wealth because they’ve lost too much of their previous market.
The fact is we can’t sustain an economy based on restaurant and shop workers serving stuff to pen pushers and robotics engineers with everyone else on the dole unable to buy the products produced by the the robots who’ve now taken what remains of their jobs.
I agree the state is going to have to manage the problem, and there could be all sorts of problems caused.
But the basic principle that automation leads to inferior standards of living is as absurd as saying that I’m worse off using an automatic washing machine than a washboard
Really your objection to automation is a socialist one, based on recognition that, left to its own devices, the capitalist free market will dysfunction in the context of automation (just like it dysfunctions in all contexts, really, if it is not managed by the state). The result will be that people are “without jobs”, by which we really mean “ordinary people who deserve incomes are left without incomes”, and the reduced demand for work will lead to a small number of experts continuing to do long hours while everyone else sits on the dole. But the crisis in jobs will lead to a lack of effective demand, meaning that the products of these automated businesses will have no market to sell to.
There are of course practical solutions to all these problems.
The last of the deep coal mines in Britain was Kellingley Colliery in Knottingley, Millions of £s worth of equipment was left underground as they destroyed the pit. There is also an estimated 25 years of coal reserves which could be brought to the surface still, yet they chose to close it down in order to bring in cheap imported coal from elsewhere. It is a financial decision which was made, people and their jobs do not enter this equation, whose problem is it to sort out the destruction of mining communities and re employ these workers? It is no different to the drivers of HGV in this country, no one cares if drivers lose their jobs. The drivers will have to simply find alternate employment in the same way the minors have to and equally in the same way when the fishing industry collapsed and fishermen had to find alternate employment. Autonomous vehicles will save billions of £s and have a positive effect on the economy, the drivers will have little impact on this change. There is no problem as the problem will be in the laps of the drivers who have lost their jobs only. Most drivers today come from various backgrounds and trades, very few are drivers who know nothing else but driving so the problem in the great scheme of things is quite limited. Minors and fishermen realistically new nothing else and had non transferable skills other than they were dam hard workers. If you believe that this will not happen because of drivers losing their jobs then that is pure fantasy on your part.Sum total is, No one cares.
Rjan:
Carryfast:
IE we’re then left with the perfect storm of a manufacturing sector that’s already been decimated by foreign imports.Then automation taking too many jobs from not only from what remains of that manufacturing sector but also then the transport sector leading to a resulting collapse in the market demand created by the even greater level of redundant workers and the automated sectors now not generating any wealth because they’ve lost too much of their previous market.The fact is we can’t sustain an economy based on restaurant and shop workers serving stuff to pen pushers and robotics engineers with everyone else on the dole unable to buy the products produced by the the robots who’ve now taken what remains of their jobs.
I agree the state is going to have to manage the problem, and there could be all sorts of problems caused.
But the basic principle that automation leads to inferior standards of living is as absurd as saying that I’m worse off using an automatic washing machine than a washboard
Really your objection to automation is a socialist one, based on recognition that, left to its own devices, the capitalist free market will dysfunction in the context of automation (just like it dysfunctions in all contexts, really, if it is not managed by the state). The result will be that people are “without jobs”, by which we really mean “ordinary people who deserve incomes are left without incomes”, and the reduced demand for work will lead to a small number of experts continuing to do long hours while everyone else sits on the dole. But the crisis in jobs will lead to a lack of effective demand, meaning that the products of these automated businesses will have no market to sell to.
There are of course practical solutions to all these problems.
Firstly we’re not talking about the type of ‘automation’ that we’ve seen so far.We’re now talking about a different scenario in which automation takes out more jobs in the economy than it sustains.
To which the only ‘practical solution’ would be a totally unrealistic and improbable redundancy terms and unemployment benefit regime.With the race to the bottom turning from who is prepared to tolerate the most disadvantageous wage regime to who is prepared to tolerate the worst situation for those left on the scrap heap and dole.History suggests that will happen regardless of which political establishment we’ve got in power because the robots won’t generate the profits needed to sustain that level of unemployment among humans in the form of corporate taxation.With the lose lose situation that what remains of the Keynesian model totally breaks down crashing the economy.
One of the simplest examples of this mad idea being what will Dr Damon offer those ex service personnel who are presently directed into truck driving when the forces are finished with their services.Let me guess you think that like everyone else in the industry,who is at risk of losing their jobs,they’ll be offered redundancy and early retirement terms that will be too good to refuse.Dream on.On that note the automatic washing machine analogy is a catastrophically erroneous red herring in this case.
"Unfortunately the delivery truck did not stop and grazed the front fender of the shuttle. Had the truck had the same sensing equipment that the shuttle has, the accident would have been avoided.”
There’s the problem. Old technology, human driven vehicles won’t ever mix well with autonomous vehicles. So unless overnight every human driven old vehicle is taken off the roads accidents will always happen.
Also isn’t the programing of the autonomous bus a bit simple? Just stop dead, if it had been programed to reverse or take other avoiding action then the crash would have been avoided. A human driver would have done just that if they realised the lorry wasn’t going to stop.
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