BillyHunt:
I’ve asked this many times on here & never got an answer but here goes again. Why is it always the cyclist going up the inside of the truck? Is there absolutely no chance of the cyclist being stopped at a junction & the truck comes up alongside them? Reading the article it says they were travelling down the road when the tipper turned, not stationary but moving. No mention of the cyclist going up the inside.
I’ve also asked before why it’s always tippers? I’m not looking to blame anyone but I’ve never driven one so why are they death magnets for cyclists.
According to the witness report the truck was stationary waiting at the lights before moving off to turn left ( ‘’ he had been sat at the red light and only just started to move off’’ ).Bearing in mind that any truck driver turning left in London who has access to the outside world news will already be paranoid about any cyclist ahead when approaching a junction to turn left.
in this case it appears he wasn’t paranoid enough given that he drove off & turned left. With all the mirrors at his disposal, and all the recent publicity, how come he didn’t see her?
While even if the driver did supposedly drive alongside the cyclist,up to the red light,then it isn’t rocket science for the cyclist to stay still at the line until the truck has moved off and cleared the junction. :roll
indeed, because there is no way the driver, getting there second, should wait for a cyclist to clear the junction is there?
I’d go with yet another example of a cyclist riding a cycle along the nearside of a truck ‘after’ the lights turned green between the driver’s nearside mirror checks and looking ahead and offside mirror checks.As I’ve said previously the only way to reduce that possibility is to take the truck through the whole left turn from start to finish on its nearside mirrors and letting what happens ahead look after itself.Being that the risk of a thick idiot cyclist,getting along the nearside,while looking elsewhere,probably outweighs that of someone crossing ahead on a green light.Which then still leaves the question of possible mirror blindspots.
then, as usual, you would be jumping to conclusions as you don’t have facts, your dislike of cyclists will colour this perception.
That post says it all.So in your view the truck driver making a left turn must wait at a green light until it goes red again in case there is a cyclist/s who’s got along the nearside while the driver’s attention was away from the nearside mirrors.Or because the thick arrogant morons have to go first regardless of common sense saying otherwise.
As for how come he didn’t see her I think you’ve missed the bit about having to look elsewhere not just at the nearside mirrors,in addition to mirror blindspots assuming the cyclist has managed to get into one while the driver was looking in the offside mirrors and/or ahead.
In which case,as I said,the driver training regime will at least have to get its head around the idea of the lesser of all evils in putting the offside and ahead at more risk in order to concentrate exclusively on the nearside mirrors before and during a left turn.Which is something I’d already found out long before the current ‘issues’.
All because a bunch of self important moronic road users think they should be able to undertake possibly/probably left turning traffic,including large trucks,at junctions,regardless of who got to the line first.
Sincere condolences to the cyclists family and yet another avoidable incident.
No good saying what cyclists should do etc we are the supposed professionals, the fact is tippers (at a stretch HGV’s but lets face it your average tipper driver is short of a slice or two) and cyclists cannot mix in the capital.
More deaths will happen unless measures are put in place to stop tippers an cyclists mixing, so what if the construction project is delayed boo ■■■■■■ who…
Ban all HGV vehicles at all times in cities untill a safe network of cyclist routes, cyclist awareness and cyclist accountability is in place…
We can have mirrors coming out of our arses but having only two eyes limits us to how much we can see at any one time…
BillyHunt:
How come it’s only in London? Don’t the other major cities have cyclists & tippers.
It is all about the odds.London is the most densely populated area in the country with more cyclists.Added to which a political regime which has unofficially provided cyclists with the idea that their vulnerability gives them immunity from all the normal common sense rules of the road together with a policy of increasing cycle use to Chinese type levels.Together with a development regime which wants to cater for an even larger increase in that population.So more trucks being called for.The biggest surprise being how they continue to find drivers who are mug enough to be prepared to take the responsibility of driving trucks and buses in that environment on a regular basis.
Dipper_Dave:
Sincere condolences to the cyclists family and yet another avoidable incident.
No good saying what cyclists should do etc we are the supposed professionals, the fact is tippers (at a stretch HGV’s but lets face it your average tipper driver is short of a slice or two) and cyclists cannot mix in the capital.
More deaths will happen unless measures are put in place to stop tippers an cyclists mixing, so what if the construction project is delayed boo [zb] who…
Ban all HGV vehicles at all times in cities untill a safe network of cyclist routes, cyclist awareness and cyclist accountability is in place…
The more that those with the idea of giving cyclists carte blanche to do as they want,on the basis that truck/bus drivers have to make it work the more cyclists will become casualties.
As for a truck ( and bus ) ban in London good luck with that.While any driver with any sense would probably be the first to support the idea.
These accidents will keep on happening, regardless of how many extras mirrors & cameras stuck to lorries they decide to legally enforce.
The cycling infrastructure in central London quite simply is not fit for purpose. Painted lines on the road aren’t good enough, cyclists in their ever increasing numbers need properly segregating away from busy traffic on main roads. The status quo is totally unfair on both cyclists trying to get from A-B safely & HGV drivers having to be on constant red alert for untrained, non-road wise individuals carrying out suicide missions on bikes, just so they don’t kill somebody trying to earn an honest living.
Dipper_Dave:
Sincere condolences to the cyclists family and yet another avoidable incident.
No good saying what cyclists should do etc we are the supposed professionals, the fact is tippers (at a stretch HGV’s but lets face it your average tipper driver is short of a slice or two) and cyclists cannot mix in the capital.
More deaths will happen unless measures are put in place to stop tippers an cyclists mixing, so what if the construction project is delayed boo [zb] who…
Ban all HGV vehicles at all times in cities untill a safe network of cyclist routes, cyclist awareness and cyclist accountability is in place…
The more that those with the idea of giving cyclists carte blanche to do as they want,on the basis that truck/bus drivers have to make it work the more cyclists will become casualties.
As for a truck ( and bus ) ban in London good luck with that.While any driver with any sense would probably be the first to support the idea.
Accountability is the key, as virtually every other road user is accountable so should a cyclist be… They won’t like wearing a Hi Viz vest with a unique number on it, in fact some won’t like a hi viz vest or even lights let alone a basic grasp of the highway code but to end this the powers that be have to realise that tipper drivers although not the best road user out there (not all I’m sure there are some good ones) cannot take all the blame. Radical steps need to be taken or another cyclist will die tomorrow, next week etc.
Obviously the full facts of this incident I’m not aware of, this is just a general statement.
Dipper_Dave:
Sincere condolences to the cyclists family and yet another avoidable incident.
No good saying what cyclists should do etc we are the supposed professionals, the fact is tippers (at a stretch HGV’s but lets face it your average tipper driver is short of a slice or two) and cyclists cannot mix in the capital.
More deaths will happen unless measures are put in place to stop tippers an cyclists mixing, so what if the construction project is delayed boo [zb] who…
Ban all HGV vehicles at all times in cities untill a safe network of cyclist routes, cyclist awareness and cyclist accountability is in place…
The more that those with the idea of giving cyclists carte blanche to do as they want,on the basis that truck/bus drivers have to make it work the more cyclists will become casualties.
As for a truck ( and bus ) ban in London good luck with that.While any driver with any sense would probably be the first to support the idea.
Accountability is the key, as virtually every other road user is accountable so should a cyclist be… They won’t like wearing a Hi Viz vest with a unique number on it, in fact some won’t like a hi viz vest or even lights let alone a basic grasp of the highway code but to end this the powers that be have to realise that tipper drivers although not the best road user out there (not all I’m sure there are some good ones) cannot take all the blame.Obviously the full facts of this incident I’m not aware of, this is just a general statement.
Going by the witness statement the scenario of a moving off from stationary left turning truck managing to collect a cyclist on the nearside while making the turn seems clear enough.From the cyclist point of view obviously based on the idea that undertaking a truck through a junction is better than waiting at the line for the truck to clear out of the way.Based on the idea that the most vulnerable road user has the ‘priority’ and the truck must wait until it has the combination of a green light and the absolute guaranteed certainty that there are no undertaking cyclists on the nearside.With equally eventual guaranteed results.
If thats the case then its been done to death on here and on other forums, no amount of awareness can protect that ‘one’ who has a moment of poor judgement. Accountability and seperation are the only short term solution till a better infrastructure for cyclist is in place.
Unfortunately I have to go into the City of London two or three times a week and it honestly scares the crap out of me, even after 40 years in the industry. I too have seen the moronic idiots who ride as though they have not a care in the world.
A few weeks ago, while waiting to turn left, the sensors on the bodywork were going into overdrive by sounding the alarm and visual warning in the cab, one of the cyclists was leaning against the side of the trucks bodywork so as not to take his feet off the pedals.
The 'white noise ’ horn was sounding in conjunction with the indicators that I was turning left, but up to six bikes were now up the inside of me despite all the signs on the vehicle and audible indicators. When the lights changed two turned left, the others went straight on.
But, during each journey in and out of the city, from the Southwark bridge area up the Limehouse link and onto the A13 all I see are tippers driven in what I can only describe as a reckless way. No regard for speed limits by racing between cameras, carving other road users up, with sometimes a small group of four or more vehicles from the same firm or a mixture of company’s literally bolted together with not a ■■■ papers gap between them flying up the road without a care or a hoot for others. I have even witnessed a police car on its way to an emergency, with ‘blues and two’s’ struggling to pass a group of speeding tippers on the 30mph section of the eastbound A13 who would not let it pass. The police car had to undertake to get ahead.
I see ‘load bonus’ as a cause for many of the accidents and bad driving, but I will stress that it is not that reason alone for accidents involving cyclists. But the London based firms who carry out bulk muck away haulage in the Capital need to clean their act up, I sat in a cafe the other day listening to a group of about ten tipper lads on muck away work, it was embarrassing to be in their company. Never before have I sat with other ‘drivers’ what I can only describe as Neanderthals.
I’m not a great fan of cycling thugs either, many who wear their helmet cams with pride hoping for a youtube hit, who’s actions sometimes create their own downfalls, but the majority of muck away operators in and around London also need to take a really good look at themselves. I would give up my long career if I had to resort to low standards of driving like that to earn a living.
The art of safe tipper driving in London would appear to be to never let a cycle-size gap appear anywhere around your vehicle, and always drive faster than the fastest cyclist can pedal.
Rather frightening to hear about tippers being driven like that! I thought that sort of thing went out of fashion 40+ years ago. Never experienced it in my 20+ years driving them and we were mostly paid on earnings, I know some fellow trucknet members who are/were tipper men and they were probably even steadier than me!
Twoninety88:
Unfortunately I have to go into the City of London two or three times a week and it honestly scares the crap out of me, even after 40 years in the industry. I too have seen the moronic idiots who ride as though they have not a care in the world.
A few weeks ago, while waiting to turn left, the sensors on the bodywork were going into overdrive by sounding the alarm and visual warning in the cab, one of the cyclists was leaning against the side of the trucks bodywork so as not to take his feet off the pedals.
The 'white noise ’ horn was sounding in conjunction with the indicators that I was turning left, but up to six bikes were now up the inside of me despite all the signs on the vehicle and audible indicators. When the lights changed two turned left, the others went straight on.
But, during each journey in and out of the city, from the Southwark bridge area up the Limehouse link and onto the A13 all I see are tippers driven in what I can only describe as a reckless way. No regard for speed limits by racing between cameras, carving other road users up, with sometimes a small group of four or more vehicles from the same firm or a mixture of company’s literally bolted together with not a ■■■ papers gap between them flying up the road without a care or a hoot for others. I have even witnessed a police car on its way to an emergency, with ‘blues and two’s’ struggling to pass a group of speeding tippers on the 30mph section of the eastbound A13 who would not let it pass. The police car had to undertake to get ahead.
I see ‘load bonus’ as a cause for many of the accidents and bad driving, but I will stress that it is not that reason alone for accidents involving cyclists. But the London based firms who carry out bulk muck away haulage in the Capital need to clean their act up, I sat in a cafe the other day listening to a group of about ten tipper lads on muck away work, it was embarrassing to be in their company. Never before have I sat with other ‘drivers’ what I can only describe as Neanderthals.
I’m not a great fan of cycling thugs either, many who wear their helmet cams with pride hoping for a youtube hit, who’s actions sometimes create their own downfalls, but the majority of muck away operators in and around London also need to take a really good look at themselves. I would give up my long career if I had to resort to low standards of driving like that to earn a living.
Good post.
I too go into London, not as much as I used to. I come out and I feel burnt out - exhausted. I feel that, God forbid, I take out a cyclist/pedestrian - it’ll be my fault, regardless.
Maybe all hgv drivers should outright refuse to drive into london until all cuncles are either banned or moved of the Roads.
Let’s see how the government reacts to that one.
The city and in turn country would grind to a halt. It’s about time the powers that be realised trucks are more important than cycles and the culture of blaming the hgvs needs to be reversed and the spotlight needs to be out squarely on the reckless cyclists.
Cyclists can easilly make a choice to not come up the side of an hgv… The hgv has little to no choice about it’s position in the road, so why the hell are the cyclists made out to be the blameless victims all the time.
BillyHunt:
As someone that rides through newcastle to work I can tell you they do & most days it doesn’t matter how safe I try to be, there will be some vehicle driver that comes close.
I’ve not cycled since I discovered the joys of the internal combustion engine. I do however treat cyclists like I would any vulnerable road user and give them as much space as possible, if that means sitting behind them for 5 minutes or so then so be it, but I’d like to ask you Billy, which type of vehicle is most likely NOT to give you adequate room when passing you? Not interested in scoring points but am genuinely curious and I think that you’re capable of giving an unbiased answer.
Twoninety88:
Unfortunately I have to go into the City of London two or three times a week and it honestly scares the crap out of me, even after 40 years in the industry. I too have seen the moronic idiots who ride as though they have not a care in the world.
A few weeks ago, while waiting to turn left, the sensors on the bodywork were going into overdrive by sounding the alarm and visual warning in the cab, one of the cyclists was leaning against the side of the trucks bodywork so as not to take his feet off the pedals.
The 'white noise ’ horn was sounding in conjunction with the indicators that I was turning left, but up to six bikes were now up the inside of me despite all the signs on the vehicle and audible indicators. When the lights changed two turned left, the others went straight on.
But, during each journey in and out of the city, from the Southwark bridge area up the Limehouse link and onto the A13 all I see are tippers driven in what I can only describe as a reckless way. No regard for speed limits by racing between cameras, carving other road users up, with sometimes a small group of four or more vehicles from the same firm or a mixture of company’s literally bolted together with not a ■■■ papers gap between them flying up the road without a care or a hoot for others. I have even witnessed a police car on its way to an emergency, with ‘blues and two’s’ struggling to pass a group of speeding tippers on the 30mph section of the eastbound A13 who would not let it pass. The police car had to undertake to get ahead.
I see ‘load bonus’ as a cause for many of the accidents and bad driving, but I will stress that it is not that reason alone for accidents involving cyclists. But the London based firms who carry out bulk muck away haulage in the Capital need to clean their act up, I sat in a cafe the other day listening to a group of about ten tipper lads on muck away work, it was embarrassing to be in their company. Never before have I sat with other ‘drivers’ what I can only describe as Neanderthals.
I’m not a great fan of cycling thugs either, many who wear their helmet cams with pride hoping for a youtube hit, who’s actions sometimes create their own downfalls, but the majority of muck away operators in and around London also need to take a really good look at themselves. I would give up my long career if I had to resort to low standards of driving like that to earn a living.
Like the post, tis true that the tipper/skip drivers seem to “drive it like you stole it” but I don’t think its been any different. Maybe its more to do with the increase in cycle numbers, and the fact that so many off those cyclist seem to ride as if they have a god given right to ignore all sense off self preservation
BillyHunt:
As someone that rides through newcastle to work I can tell you they do & most days it doesn’t matter how safe I try to be, there will be some vehicle driver that comes close.
I’ve not cycled since I discovered the joys of the internal combustion engine. I do however treat cyclists like I would any vulnerable road user and give them as much space as possible, if that means sitting behind them for 5 minutes or so then so be it, but I’d like to ask you Billy, which type of vehicle is most likely NOT to give you adequate room when passing you? Not interested in scoring points but am genuinely curious and I think that you’re capable of giving an unbiased answer.
That’s easy, cars & vans, I’ve lost count of the times I’ve been brushed by wing mirrors on both. Any time of day on any type of road. Some just don’t see you, of the three times I’ve been knocked off my bike twice the cars pulled out to get past me then did sharp lefts in front of me leaving me nowhere to go other than the side of the car, cue superman dive over the bonnet.
Never had any bother from HGV drivers as they tend to stay back until I can get out of the way, I try to pull over in built up areas, and obviously I don’t go up the inside.
BillyHunt:
I’ve asked this many times on here & never got an answer but here goes again. Why is it always the cyclist going up the inside of the truck? Is there absolutely no chance of the cyclist being stopped at a junction & the truck comes up alongside them? Reading the article it says they were travelling down the road when the tipper turned, not stationary but moving. No mention of the cyclist going up the inside.
I’ve also asked before why it’s always tippers? I’m not looking to blame anyone but I’ve never driven one so why are they death magnets for cyclists.
According to the witness report the truck was stationary waiting at the lights before moving off to turn left ( ‘’ he had been sat at the red light and only just started to move off’’ ).Bearing in mind that any truck driver turning left in London who has access to the outside world news will already be paranoid about any cyclist ahead when approaching a junction to turn left.
in this case it appears he wasn’t paranoid enough given that he drove off & turned left. With all the mirrors at his disposal, and all the recent publicity, how come he didn’t see her?
While even if the driver did supposedly drive alongside the cyclist,up to the red light,then it isn’t rocket science for the cyclist to stay still at the line until the truck has moved off and cleared the junction. :roll
indeed, because there is no way the driver, getting there second, should wait for a cyclist to clear the junction is there?
I’d go with yet another example of a cyclist riding a cycle along the nearside of a truck ‘after’ the lights turned green between the driver’s nearside mirror checks and looking ahead and offside mirror checks.As I’ve said previously the only way to reduce that possibility is to take the truck through the whole left turn from start to finish on its nearside mirrors and letting what happens ahead look after itself.Being that the risk of a thick idiot cyclist,getting along the nearside,while looking elsewhere,probably outweighs that of someone crossing ahead on a green light.Which then still leaves the question of possible mirror blindspots.
then, as usual, you would be jumping to conclusions as you don’t have facts, your dislike of cyclists will colour this perception.
That post says it all.So in your view the truck driver making a left turn must wait at a green light until it goes red again in case there is a cyclist/s who’s got along the nearside while the driver’s attention was away from the nearside mirrors.Or because the thick arrogant morons have to go first regardless of common sense saying otherwise.
youre making stuff up as usual, I never said that. If you’re there first you should be able to go first, why should a cyclist getting to the lights first then wait for the lorry to turn, possibly not having seen them & getting crushed.
As for how come he didn’t see her I think you’ve missed the bit about having to look elsewhere not just at the nearside mirrors,in addition to mirror blindspots assuming the cyclist has managed to get into one while the driver was looking in the offside mirrors and/or ahead.
yes because that’s what cyclist do, wait until the drivers not looking & dive into a blind spot in the hope of getting flattened, good grief do you ever read your stuff before posting?
In which case,as I said,the driver training regime will at least have to get its head around the idea of the lesser of all evils in putting the offside and ahead at more risk in order to concentrate exclusively on the nearside mirrors before and during a left turn.Which is something I’d already found out long before the current ‘issues’.
All because a bunch of self important moronic road users think they should be able to undertake possibly/probably left turning traffic,including large trucks,at junctions,regardless of who got to the line first.
BillyHunt:
That post says it all.So in your view the truck driver making a left turn must wait at a green light until it goes red again in case there is a cyclist/s who’s got along the nearside while the driver’s attention was away from the nearside mirrors.Or because the thick arrogant morons have to go first regardless of common sense saying otherwise.
youre making stuff up as usual, I never said that. If you’re there first you should be able to go first, why should a cyclist getting to the lights first then wait for the lorry to turn, possibly not having seen them & getting crushed.
As for how come he didn’t see her I think you’ve missed the bit about having to look elsewhere not just at the nearside mirrors,in addition to mirror blindspots assuming the cyclist has managed to get into one while the driver was looking in the offside mirrors and/or ahead.
yes because that’s what cyclist do, wait until the drivers not looking & dive into a blind spot in the hope of getting flattened, good grief do you ever read your stuff before posting?
In which case,as I said,the driver training regime will at least have to get its head around the idea of the lesser of all evils in putting the offside and ahead at more risk in order to concentrate exclusively on the nearside mirrors before and during a left turn.Which is something I’d already found out long before the current ‘issues’.
All because a bunch of self important moronic road users think they should be able to undertake possibly/probably left turning traffic,including large trucks,at junctions,regardless of who got to the line first.
Feel free to explain how a cyclist would ‘get crushed’ by a left turning truck at a traffic light controlled junction.Assuming that is the cyclist waits at the line and lets the truck go first on green and given the type of driver who decides to drive up to the line to the right of them before the turn.Bearing in mind stop lines are always well ‘before’ the junction and the turn not ‘on’ it.While you obviously seem to think that it’s safer to get into the ‘actual’ danger/turning zone when the light goes green because the cyclist ‘has the right to go first’.I’m guessing that with that logic and level of intelligence you’re obviously one of the cyclists I’m referring to.
As for cyclists undertaking/riding along the nearside of a stationary truck as I said do you really think that drivers are actually trained to watch their nearside mirrors to the exclusion of everything else while waiting at a red light before and throughout a left turn.The fact is yes it is extremely likely,if not inevitable,that if cyclists don’t stay back in that situation they will eventually get into a position where they haven’t been noticed.Especially in the case of the majority of those drivers who follow their all round observation training.Instead of ditching it in favour of just concentrating on looking out for that selfish,arrogant,thick cyclist riding along the nearside of the truck in a left turn situation.
I used to run along the gutter in traffic to stop the suicidal self propelled gang from putting themselves into danger, it used to ■■■■ them off, but ■■■■■■ off is better than squashed I reckon.
BillyHunt:
That post says it all.So in your view the truck driver making a left turn must wait at a green light until it goes red again in case there is a cyclist/s who’s got along the nearside while the driver’s attention was away from the nearside mirrors.Or because the thick arrogant morons have to go first regardless of common sense saying otherwise.
youre making stuff up as usual, I never said that. If you’re there first you should be able to go first, why should a cyclist getting to the lights first then wait for the lorry to turn, possibly not having seen them & getting crushed.
As for how come he didn’t see her I think you’ve missed the bit about having to look elsewhere not just at the nearside mirrors,in addition to mirror blindspots assuming the cyclist has managed to get into one while the driver was looking in the offside mirrors and/or ahead.
yes because that’s what cyclist do, wait until the drivers not looking & dive into a blind spot in the hope of getting flattened, good grief do you ever read your stuff before posting?
In which case,as I said,the driver training regime will at least have to get its head around the idea of the lesser of all evils in putting the offside and ahead at more risk in order to concentrate exclusively on the nearside mirrors before and during a left turn.Which is something I’d already found out long before the current ‘issues’.
All because a bunch of self important moronic road users think they should be able to undertake possibly/probably left turning traffic,including large trucks,at junctions,regardless of who got to the line first.
Feel free to explain how a cyclist would ‘get crushed’ by a left turning truck at a traffic light controlled junction.Assuming that is the cyclist waits at the line and lets the truck go first on green and given the type of driver who decides to drive up to the line to the right of them before the turn.Bearing in mind stop lines are always well ‘before’ the junction and the turn not ‘on’ it.While you obviously seem to think that it’s safer to get into the ‘actual’ danger/turning zone when the light goes green because the cyclist ‘has the right to go first’.I’m guessing that with that logic and level of intelligence you’re obviously one of the cyclists I’m referring to.
As for cyclists undertaking/riding along the nearside of a stationary truck as I said do you really think that drivers are actually trained to watch their nearside mirrors to the exclusion of everything else while waiting at a red light before and throughout a left turn.The fact is yes it is extremely likely,if not inevitable,that if cyclists don’t stay back in that situation they will eventually get into a position where they haven’t been noticed.Especially in the case of the majority of those drivers who follow their all round observation training.Instead of ditching it in favour of just concentrating on looking out for that selfish,arrogant,thick cyclist riding along the nearside of the truck in a left turn situation.
As soon as you answer the question, asked again, why should the cyclist getting to the lights first, then wait for the tipper to turn? Again you’re makng things up, I’ve never said the cyclist has the right of way, and you’re assumptions would be, as usual, incorrect.
Can I assume that, given the fact you’ve never even driven an HGV for the majority of this century, you have no real idea what today’s drivers are trained in and, as usual, you making things up as you go.
:roll
I thought that sort of thing went out of fashion 40+ years ago. Never experienced it in my 20+ years driving them and we were mostly paid on earnings, I know some fellow trucknet members who are/were tipper men and they were probably even steadier than me!
