boredwivdrivin:
And it seems most fatal accidents occur with 8 leggers
They dont even have the lazy excuse of blind spots as they are a rigid !!
If their mirrors are set correctly they can look down both
Rigid eights have (or had) plenty of blind spots, I had 20+ years driving them and, to the best of my knowledge, never flattened any cyclists, though occasionally I would find unexplained splashes of blood on the rear mudguards…probably a Pheasent 
I can’t really see that in Central London tipper’s or anything else would be speeding about regardless of wether they are on load bonus or not, the average speed of vehicles must be less than 20 mph? This does seem to be a ‘London issue’ more than elsewhere though but seeing how cyclists perform in our small town is scary enough, creeping up the inside of trucks and busses instead of just hanging fire behind them. Any driver, unless he has eyes like Marty Feldman (google him if you are under 50!) can only see in one direction at any one time and the places to be looking most of the time when halted at junctions is in front and left or right, not down the nearside looking for Lemmings on a suicide mission. In the time it takes a driver to look from his nearside mirror to the offside, straight ahead and back again a cyclist may have shot down the inside unnoticed, unless the driver practically rubs the kerb with his nearside wheels to stop that happening which I used to do if possible. Even then some would manage to get past by footing the bike along the kerb! 
I feel sure that truck drivers in London are well aware of the problem and take extra care but also cyclist’s must be aware as well and ride sensibly to lessen the risk to them. Then again trucks should give cyclists plenty of room when overtaking them (a cars width ideally, though not always possible in towns) and I know that doesn’t always happen.
Pete.
The problem on here is that some cannot seem to accept it is not always the cyclists fault. I have said this before and I will say it again. Have you ever stood at a junction and watched some lorry drivers as they move off and turn left?
Well I have on many occasions and I can assure you there are quite a few that hardly check a mirror never mind watching what enters their blindspot. It really is scary to see.
Of course cyclists are crazy to ride up the nearside of any vehicle especially if they are indicating left but they are not the so called professionals. As someone else said it is the responsibility of the LGV driver to check(to his or her best ability) to make sure no cyclist enters that area and if they do they react accordingly. Unfortunately some drivers do not do this to their best ability.(far from it)
The combination of bad driving and ignorance causes these deaths and both parties need to man up and sort this problem out instead of slagging each other off at ever given opportunity.
albion1971:
The problem on here is that some cannot seem to accept it is not always the cyclists fault. I have said this before and I will say it again. Have you ever stood at a junction and watched some lorry drivers as they move off and turn left?
Well I have on many occasions and I can assure you there are quite a few that hardly check a mirror never mind watching what enters their blindspot. It really is scary to see.
Of course cyclists are crazy to ride up the nearside of any vehicle
What is certain is that most of the incidents in question involve left turning trucks with a cyclist at the nearside.On that specific note your comments are a dangerous contradiction.The fact is the only way to see a cyclist getting along the nearside at a left turn is to be looking in the nearside mirrors.While as I’ve said the odds,especially in London,mean that even concentrating on the nearside mirrors,to the exclusion of what’s happening ahead and in the offside mirrors,still won’t guarantee the safety of anyone cycling on the basis of undertake and outrun turning or potentially turning vehicles.Any suggestion otherwise is just adding to the potential casualty count.
.
BillyHunt:
I don’t suppose these incidents could have anything to do with this could they?
road.cc/154913
I’d doubt it. According to that report…
TfL says that issues identified included lack of insurance, driving without the appropriate licence, with unsafe tyres or an unsafe load, and not accurately recording driver hours.
Now i’m no expert in this area, but i don’t think any of them things have been responsible for a cyclist death in London.
The road transport industry has adapted , created schemes and had legislation to try to help allieviate the problem of trucks vs cyclists, Cyclists however have not been asked to modify their behaviour in any way - I suggest it is now time that the cyclists recognise they also have a responsibility for their own safety, and despite everything the road transport industry tries to educate them … they seem oblivious. It seems to me that it is time that it is made illegal for a cyclist, even if they have a dedicated cycle lane, cannot pass a HGV on the inside… full stop no argument, if there is a truck on their right hand side they have to stay behind it. This of course will bring howls of indignation from cyclists- but we as an industry have tried about everything there is to educate cyclists. This is not a one way street , We have and are continuing to adapt to try to keep cylists safe. its time that cyclists adapted too
If every other vehicle except cycles, needs acquisition of the appropriate license and training, in the form of theory and hazard perception tests etc then perhaps it is time that cyclists were also brought into line too?
With modern traffic speeds, density of traffic in town centres and ever more complex traffic junctions out there, it somehow seems ludicrous that some clueless individual can just jump on a bike and ride around in a total daze (or haze), with often inevitable consequences.
Im not sure whats more worrying, how desensitized ive come to this as it happens so regularly or the the sheer lack of the cyclist lobby groups to give an inch on things like compulsory cyclist training or cyclist accountability, hi viz vest with a sticker on would do, heck they could even stick their ICI (Individual Cyclist Identifier) on their arses, after all its the best thing about being behind a cyclist.
I will take driver accountability for more vunerable road users as a given but ffs cyclists do something to protect your own lives. Having the moral high ground is little compensation as a truck is crushing your body.
Fitting blindspot mirrors at truck height to traffic lights and notorious busy junctions may help, but yet again its another mirror for a driver to check and lets face it some tipper drivers seem to have a particular problem with this.
Or we could just carry on as normal letting the cyclists die, which is what will happen.
Carryfast:
albion1971:
The problem on here is that some cannot seem to accept it is not always the cyclists fault. I have said this before and I will say it again. Have you ever stood at a junction and watched some lorry drivers as they move off and turn left?
Well I have on many occasions and I can assure you there are quite a few that hardly check a mirror never mind watching what enters their blindspot. It really is scary to see.
Of course cyclists are crazy to ride up the nearside of any vehicleWhat is certain is that most of the incidents in question involve left turning trucks with a cyclist at the nearside.On that specific note your comments are a dangerous contradiction.The fact is the only way to see a cyclist getting along the nearside at a left turn is to be looking in the nearside mirrors.While as I’ve said the odds,especially in London,mean that even concentrating on the nearside mirrors,to the exclusion of what’s happening ahead and in the offside mirrors,still won’t guarantee the safety of anyone cycling on the basis of undertake and outrun turning or potentially turning vehicles.Any suggestion otherwise is just adding to the potential casualty count.
.
It is obvious from your reply you have forgotten how to check your mirrors on an LGV. I never said anything about concentrating on the nearside mirror and I doubt anyone else has.Before you reply try standing at a busy junction preferably in London and tell me what I am saying is wrong.
albion1971:
What is certain is that most of the incidents in question involve left turning trucks with a cyclist at the nearside.On that specific note your comments are a dangerous contradiction.The fact is the only way to see a cyclist getting along the nearside at a left turn is to be looking in the nearside mirrors.While as I’ve said the odds,especially in London,mean that even concentrating on the nearside mirrors,to the exclusion of what’s happening ahead and in the offside mirrors,still won’t guarantee the safety of anyone cycling on the basis of undertake and outrun turning or potentially turning vehicles.Any suggestion otherwise is just adding to the potential casualty count.
.
It is obvious from your reply you have forgotten how to check your mirrors on an LGV. I never said anything about concentrating on the nearside mirror and I doubt anyone else has.Before you reply try standing at a busy junction preferably in London and tell me what I am saying is wrong.
[/quote]
I haven’t ‘forgotten’ anything.As I said the issue is nothing new it’s just that the numbers and therefore the odds of meeting the wrong suicidal cyclist at the wrong time in the wrong place have changed since my time.While then or now you won’t reduce those odds by not also reducing the amount of attention spent looking ahead and in the offside mirrors in favour of more spent looking in the nearside mirrors.While it seems obvious that you are all about the bs theory based ideas of ‘all round observation’.Bearing in mind that even someone as perfect as you can’t look ahead and in the offside and nearside mirrors all at the same time.
In which case no doubt if you’d have been standing on a corner in Reigate,Dorking,Leatherhead,Epsom or Guildford etc during the early 1980’s you’d have seen at least one typical ‘tipper’ type driver watching out for suicidal undertaking cyclists and the odd pedestrian on the nearside at left hand turns.Which,to do the job properly,by necessity,means ‘forgetting’ all about the bs theory of ‘all round observation’.Which might at least,partly,explain some of the present ‘issues’.
Although as I also said the idea of telling cyclists that being at the nearside of a potentially turning truck isn’t their problem and it’s ‘the driver’s responsibility to see them’ is just dangerous bs that can only add to the casualty count.
Mike-C:
BillyHunt:
I don’t suppose these incidents could have anything to do with this could they?
road.cc/154913I’d doubt it. According to that report…
TfL says that issues identified included lack of insurance, driving without the appropriate licence, with unsafe tyres or an unsafe load, and not accurately recording driver hours.
Now i’m no expert in this area, but i don’t think any of them things have been responsible for a cyclist death in London.
The point being that, if you’re the type of driver willing to take a vehicle on the road with any of those conditions you’re not really going to be the type that drives responsibly are you?
[quote=“boredwivdrivin” If their mirrors are set correctly they can look down both sides all the time [/quote]
Only thing i can think of that can look down both sides all the time is a chameleon.
Dont know of any drivers with that curious parentage. There are more holes in your arguments than a slab of swiss cheese. Youre just awesome!
The way some on here go on you’d think checking your mirrors was an Olympic event, it’s a simple basic of driving done millions of times a day. “Oooh how can us poor drivers be expected to check all our mirrors prior to moving off”, get over yourselves, if you cannot manage it I suggest you join CF in the ranks of armchair warriors because you certainly don’t deserve to be driving those big scary lorries.
Dipper_Dave:
Im not sure whats more worrying, how desensitized ive come to this as it happens so regularly or the the sheer lack of the cyclist lobby groups to give an inch on things like compulsory cyclist training or cyclist accountability, hi viz vest with a sticker on would do, heck they could even stick their ICI (Individual Cyclist Identifier) on their arses, after all its the best thing about being behind a cyclist.I will take driver accountability for more vunerable road users as a given but ffs cyclists do something to protect your own lives. Having the moral high ground is little compensation as a truck is crushing your body.
Fitting blindspot mirrors at truck height to traffic lights and notorious busy junctions may help, but yet again its another mirror for a driver to check and lets face it some tipper drivers seem to have a particular problem with this.
Or we could just carry on as normal letting the cyclists die, which is what will happen.
That’s exactly what will happen, until enough knee-jerk reaction politicians do something terminally stupid like ban all lorries in the daytime. Because banning lorries when visibility is best is a great idea, amirite?!
A starting point that seems blindingly obvious, to me at least, is to figure out why it’s tipper trucks doing almost all the killing and then address that. In my totally unprofessional experience/opinion, it’s down to rushing - accelerating too hard out of traffic lights and cornering too fast.
Cyclists don’t ride around looking for a lorry to throw themselves under any more than lorry drivers set out run them down, and if it was a simple case of brainless cyclists, buses and other lorries would feature in the stats much more heavily.
When I’m cycling through London, I’m busy profiling drivers as you would expect -
Audi RS3 with tinted windows? The driver thinks he’s the next Michael Schumacher and is probably homicidal to boot.
Old-style Corsa/Vectra/C-Class/A-Class with suspiciously shiny paint? The driver is going to be utterly incompetent, expect them to pull out on you or close pass.
Knackered white van? Stay clear, the driver is more likely to run you over than pass you safely.
Scaffolding lorry? Same as the white van.
Bulk waste artic? Expect a close pass, but not too dangerous.
Particular bulk waste BigCo artic? Should be fine.
Artic on subbie work pulling a fridge? Probably pretty safe.
Liveried unit with matching trailer? Likely very good, unless it’s that particular supermarket’s old DAF with the giant airkit.
Rigid? Liveried generally fine, unliveried probably fine if it’s new and shiny.
2 certain BigCo’s tippers? Fine.
Particular BigCo tippers? Like to travel in packs, very aggressive, stay well away.
Unliveried tipper that’s a bit of a shed? Expect the driver to actively try and kill you instead of try and avoid you including - overtaking whilst turning left, not bothering to change lanes to overtake, tailgating, not indicating, and accelerating hard away from traffic lights.
Cement Mixers from a certain BigCo? Very good.
Cement mixers otherwise, treat them like shed-like tippers.
Single decker bus? Drives like a bellend.
Double decker bus? Likely to leave you enough room to the side, but will pull in and stop right in front of you. Passengers standing = better driving.
Open top tour bus? Expect a close pass, as the drivers don’t seem to understand that their vehicle is slightly longer than a car.
Bin lorries? Generally chilled, watch out at traffic lights as they accelerate faster than you might think.
7.5t anything? Will be driven by a maniac.
Private Hire minicab? Will be driven by a maniac.
Black Cab? 40/60 chance of maniac/quality driver. Expect them to pull a u-turn without looking or signalling.
Any parcel delivery van? Maniac.
Any driver that pulls their vehicle into the cycle box without good reason? Manic and will accelerate hard when the lights change.
Generally with lorries, the bigger and more expensive/well maintained looking they are, the better driven they are (except if they are from that particular tipper company that likes to run convoys). The exact opposite is true for private cars. Minicabs are always homicidal.
All that said and done, stereotyping only works to a certain degree, by giving you a head start, and you’ve got to double check and deal with the situation as it presents itself there and then. However, that’s part of the problem - most people don’t pay that kind of attention. The majority of cyclists ride like the majority of car drivers drive i.e. they start their journey and mysteriously arrive at their destination, via a series of mechanical actions and varying degrees of ranting at all the idiots out and about on the roads.
Most people just don’t bloody think about what they’re doing!
Oh look! There’s a pinch point coming up. I hate it when drivers squeeze past through this bit, it’s a dangerous piece of road. Bloody cars.
vs.
Oh look! There’s a pinch point coming up. What’s coming up from behind, do I need to slow down a little, where is the gap so I can pull into the middle of the lane and block a dangerous pass, MSM, where and when am I going to move over again after the pinch point, mind that sunken drain cover, ok, thank the driver for not killing me, pull back into the side again.
All you can really do out there is do your best and hope that one of the brainless rushing around like a bluebottle doesn’t catch you up in their “accident”; and it always feels like an accident to them too - the other car “came out of nowhere”, their “car just flew off the road”, the cyclist “just threw themselves under the wheels”. Not ■■■■■■■ true. They were driving faster than their brain could process the amount of information about the situation around them at that moment and they didn’t have the capacity to react to whatever variable changed, and, more than likely the other driver/cyclist/whatever was taking exactly the same approach of travelling too fast for their brain power at that moment too.
BillyHunt:
The way some on here go on you’d think checking your mirrors was an Olympic event, it’s a simple basic of driving done millions of times a day. “Oooh how can us poor drivers be expected to check all our mirrors prior to moving off”, get over yourselves, if you cannot manage it I suggest you join CF in the ranks of armchair warriors because you certainly don’t deserve to be driving those big scary lorries.
No one is arguing about the need to ‘check the mirrors’.The point is that a relatively quick moving undertaking cyclist can get into a dangerous position between the time that a driver stops looking in the nearside mirrors to ahead and/or offside.The left turning truck v cyclist statistics seem to confirm my idea learn’t by experience that it’s better to forget all about the idea of ‘all round observation’ in that situation and concentrate more on the nearside mirrors on the approach and through a left hand turn.Feel free to ignore the advice.
■■■■■■■:
[quote=“boredwivdrivin” If their mirrors are set correctly they can look down both sides all the time
Only thing i can think of that can look down both sides all the time is a chameleon.
Dont know of any drivers with that curious parentage. There are more holes in your arguments than a slab of swiss cheese. Youre just awesome!
[/quote]
To be fair their are plenty of others who seem to agree that drivers can see what’s happening in the nearside and offside mirrors and ahead all at the same time.
Carryfast:
BillyHunt:
The way some on here go on you’d think checking your mirrors was an Olympic event, it’s a simple basic of driving done millions of times a day. “Oooh how can us poor drivers be expected to check all our mirrors prior to moving off”, get over yourselves, if you cannot manage it I suggest you join CF in the ranks of armchair warriors because you certainly don’t deserve to be driving those big scary lorries.No one is arguing about the need to ‘check the mirrors’.The point is that a relatively quick moving undertaking cyclist can get into a dangerous position between the time that a driver stops looking in the nearside mirrors to ahead and/or offside.The left turning truck v cyclist statistics seem to confirm my idea learn’t by experience that it’s better to forget all about the idea of ‘all round observation’ in that situation and concentrate more on the nearside mirrors on the approach and through a left hand turn.Feel free to ignore the advice.
Advice from someone who, by their own admission, hasn’t driven a lorry this century &, couldn’t give a zb, I don’t really need, given that I’ve never even come close to touching a cyclist. We’ve been over this many times before to no end, I’m not going to bother again. It’s pointless trying to discuss any points with someone who refuses point blank to attach any blame to a lorry driver no matter what the circumstances.
For the rest of you just relax, if it does ever happen to you then the chances of anything happening to you are remote.
road.cc/155028
Carryfast:
albion1971:
What is certain is that most of the incidents in question involve left turning trucks with a cyclist at the nearside.On that specific note your comments are a dangerous contradiction.The fact is the only way to see a cyclist getting along the nearside at a left turn is to be looking in the nearside mirrors.While as I’ve said the odds,especially in London,mean that even concentrating on the nearside mirrors,to the exclusion of what’s happening ahead and in the offside mirrors,still won’t guarantee the safety of anyone cycling on the basis of undertake and outrun turning or potentially turning vehicles.Any suggestion otherwise is just adding to the potential casualty count.
.It is obvious from your reply you have forgotten how to check your mirrors on an LGV. I never said anything about concentrating on the nearside mirror and I doubt anyone else has.Before you reply try standing at a busy junction preferably in London and tell me what I am saying is wrong.
I haven’t ‘forgotten’ anything.As I said the issue is nothing new it’s just that the numbers and therefore the odds of meeting the wrong suicidal cyclist at the wrong time in the wrong place have changed since my time.While then or now you won’t reduce those odds by not also reducing the amount of attention spent looking ahead and in the offside mirrors in favour of more spent looking in the nearside mirrors.While it seems obvious that you are all about the bs theory based ideas of ‘all round observation’.Bearing in mind that even someone as perfect as you can’t look ahead and in the offside and nearside mirrors all at the same time.
In which case no doubt if you’d have been standing on a corner in Reigate,Dorking,Leatherhead,Epsom or Guildford etc during the early 1980’s you’d have seen at least one typical ‘tipper’ type driver watching out for suicidal undertaking cyclists and the odd pedestrian on the nearside at left hand turns.Which,to do the job properly,by necessity,means ‘forgetting’ all about the bs theory of ‘all round observation’.Which might at least,partly,explain some of the present ‘issues’.
Although as I also said the idea of telling cyclists that being at the nearside of a potentially turning truck isn’t their problem and it’s ‘the driver’s responsibility to see them’ is just dangerous bs that can only add to the casualty count.
[/quote]
zzzzzzzzzzzzz sorry I fell asleep half way through your post. As usual your completely out of touch with reality.
Three days of posts about a subject thrashed out many times before and still it happens and still nobody comes up with a proper working solution just polarised views. In my early teens I used to ride my bike everywhere and even back then I’d scare myself witless riding down Via Gellia near Cromford and having to pick my way around the traffic at the bottom. However, even then my sense of self preservation meant I didn’t undertake anything turning left even a car. To be honest the danger was and is obvious and you shouldn’t put the protection of yourself in the hands of others, unless it’s an operating theatre team. Nobody sets out to kill anyone sometimes it’s a moment of inattention, sometimes it’s total recklessness, sometimes somebody spots you just in time and averts the collision. Whilst riding up the nearside of anything your rolling the dice as to which one it is.
sometimes somebody spots you just in time and averts the collision.
I would sincerely hope it is more than sometimes. I would like to think most professional drivers spot a cyclist coming up their nearside 99% of the time. That is if they bother to look of course. I have seen them reading newspapers, holding their head in their hands and gawking at woman but hopefully these ones are in the minority. I have also seen cyclists avert a collision. It is 2 sided thing and all the 2 parties can do is shout abuse at each other…pathetic.