American/ozzy big rigs v euro units

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
21

I agree about the additional features and chassis thicknesses being possible, but not only would a german company not spec it, the german dealerships wouldn’t offer it in the first place. As for speccing the extra wheelbase, you wouldn’t wan’t a 244" wheelbase tractor unit would you? The twists on the chassis are horrendous at that length.

Sure enough, you can probably get anything on a euro truck, but it would not be a highway truck if you did. With all the nonsense rules in Europe, it would only ever be special types. The trucks that go north here are all highway tractors. They mostly come back, get straightened out while the drivers go to a chiropractor to get themselves straightened out, then go back on the highway. I saw the list of work to be done on my bush truck last time round and it was extensive, but the truck was back on the road 2 days later.

So I agree that you could get an FH or Scania built to survive the work, but it would be a very expensive truck to buy and impractical for anything other than bush work. I doubt, somehow, that any synchromesh gearbox would handle it, either, and any diffs with reduction gears would surely need a rebuild aftter the 8 weeks up there, if they survived it at all.

Say what you want about NA trucks, they found what works and have no wish to change it. While it may seem basic or prehistoric to those who only see the rivets and heavy bumpers, it really does work. And you say about speccing the euro trucks with all the toys, but they are fitted as standard here. There are things that could do with changing, but then it would mean that things would lose some of the simplicity when it comes to fixing them. And the ability to repair them easily is very real. A new cab only takes a max of 2 days, or you can twist the chassis so far that wheels can be off the ground and they will sort it quickly and inexpensively.

And they are not that expensive to buy here. A new T800 with a 72" sleeper would set you back about $130k Canadian. While that sounds a lot, that includes the top package KW warranty and that is something that puts any euro warranty package going to real shame. That warranty gives your vehicle precedence. The dealership has 2 hours to look at your vehicle and diagnose it from the time it arrives with them.

So I am with Jon, here. I will stay here and deal with the yanks rather than deal with my former countrymen.

22

dustylfc:
after watching ice road truckers i started to wonder if our tractor units could perform the same

For our tractor units to perform the same, you’d have to UNDO 30 years of improvements. American rigs are the technological equivalent of a 1980’s European tractor unit.

They have big naff off engines yet still need 20 gears to pull 32 tonnes because despite the engine size, they’re gutless. They would look at you in disbelief if you told them its possible to run 44 tonnes with a 12 speed or 10 speed box.

23

i for one wouldnt want to do that canadian trip in any standard 3 axle euro truck with a midlift.
crap traction on the hills and the first corner on ice and you would be off .
well maybe.
we all know that they over exaggerate everything on that programme.

24

Conor:

dustylfc:
after watching ice road truckers i started to wonder if our tractor units could perform the same

For our tractor units to perform the same, you’d have to UNDO 30 years of improvements. American rigs are the technological equivalent of a 1980’s European tractor unit.

They have big naff off engines yet still need 20 gears to pull 32 tonnes because despite the engine size, they’re gutless. They would look at you in disbelief if you told them its possible to run 44 tonnes with a 12 speed or 10 speed box.

All chrome and noise i imagine, no visibility with a great big bonnet can you seriously believe they will be nicer to drive than an FH an XF or an R series ummm no. Look nice though!. Its horses for courses, our equipment suites our application and vice versa, I would not wish to drive an axxor for 3 thousand miles a week, and on the other hand I would not fancy a kenworth at tesco’s in Newton Abbot. The noise an emissions rules in the EU has forced the makers of our trucks to introduce technology like Euro 5 and quieter brakes and engine covers lovely to drive but more costly to maintain.

25

Nope, they are still far superior to anything from the 80s. Air suspension, air seats, aircon are all from this side of the pond. I spill far less coffee in my Pete than I did in any euro truck I ever drove. The ride quality is better than you would believe, but you probably wouldn’t believe it. Full floating air suspension on cabs would not cope, simple as that.
Also, you could never call it underpowered by any stretch of the imagination. 550 hp from my C15. Am I not correct in thinking that Scania and Volvo both use 16 litre engines? Also, all the engines mentioned are marine engines and all capable of 800+ BHP. Also, my truck has a design weight of 62.5 metric tonnes so underweight■■?
They may not look as generically pretty as Euro spec trucks, but they are in no way gutless, no way as basic as you imagine and are better suited to real long haul work. The hood is less obtrusive than you imagine, too. And most trucks have the 13 speed box in them, come to that.
The uninitiated always scorn the NA trucks, but most, it seems, would love a chance to drive one. In truth, driving a NA truck in the UK, with all the nutters over there, would be interesting and probably not nice. But I have driven all the trucks you mentioned, although I would have to substitute the 4 series for the R series. The XF has a worse blind spot than any NA truck, the FH was not nearly as smooth a ride as the VN and the Pete has that beaten on the highway if I am honest. The 4 series had too many disadvantages to list, not least the ride quality or the sleeper set up.

In truth, a 1982 Seddon Atkinson 410 would have a better chance of surviving the winter roads than a more modern euro truck simply because it was basic and was more easily repaired. I would even try them in a Crusader 6x4 as I have little doubt that, with rockwells, it would survive through simple durability.

26

bobthedog:
As for speccing the extra wheelbase, you wouldn’t wan’t a 244" wheelbase tractor unit would you? The twists on the chassis are horrendous at that length.

For a tractor unit, no, but for some other use definitely. I just took that matter up as you say long wheelbase is needed in the lorries driving “up there”. About the definition of wheelbase, does wheelbase mean same measure in the New World as it does here? I think I’ve heard few times that wheelbase over there is measured between first and third axle opposed to the length between first and second axle (on a 6x4 unit).

bobthedog:
Sure enough, you can probably get anything on a euro truck, but it would not be a highway truck if you did. – The trucks that go north here are all highway tractors. –

So I agree that you could get an FH or Scania built to survive the work, but it would be a very expensive truck to buy and impractical for anything other than bush work. –

What I think is that there is quite big difference in meaning between Europe and US/Canada when talking about definition of highway tractor. The highway tractor over there seems to be thought versatile enough to do almost any task whereas here a highway tractor can be almost as specialized as loggers or tippers in their ability to swap between different tasks. What I think would be closest off-the-shelf-equivalent of typical North American lorry would be highway going logger-type chassis with fifth wheel. With this I mean rigid-type 6x4 logger with air suspension on the back opposed to all-steel suspension typical in Finnish loggers. Highway going units tend to have that low ground clearance that I’d be hesitant to drive them to all the places. Still I wouldn’t say neither of these would be very expensive to buy, but in Europe it wouldn’t be economically viable to swap the work these units do, there you’re right.

bobthedog:
And you say about speccing the euro trucks with all the toys, but they are fitted as standard here.

This is another thing I’d think is mostly due to different operating culture. I’d think you have quite uniform, continent wide area on which operational costs are quite the same which is not true in Europe and WW2 didn’t affect to that culture same way as it did in Europe. Here different countries have big difference in operational culture, costs (Eastern Europeans) and level of luxury drivers want, like you probably knew already and I think this contributes towards the lack of toys on the lorries fitted as standard. The big difference in haulier costs and the regulations you mentioned, have guided the specialization of highway lorry away from what is still de facto in North America. I’d think this same type of process might very well happened there if you wouldn’t have had so big, uniform operating culture. Lorries there have maintained their good properties (like simplicity) as there hasn’t been much pressure to develop them.

bobthedog:
While that sounds a lot, that includes the top package KW warranty and that is something that puts any euro warranty package going to real shame. That warranty gives your vehicle precedence. The dealership has 2 hours to look at your vehicle and diagnose it from the time it arrives with them.

That type of warranty would be real nice to have, but I’d think it doesn’t affect to how well lorries survive in the ice roads :wink:

bobthedog:
Also, you could never call it underpowered by any stretch of the imagination. 550 hp from my C15. Am I not correct in thinking that Scania and Volvo both use 16 litre engines? Also, all the engines mentioned are marine engines and all capable of 800+ BHP.

Well, I think you’d have to opt for 16 litre Volvo or Scanny engine to have that power. Volvo offers only 540 hp from their 13 litre engines :frowning: :wink: :stuck_out_tongue: I’d think most engine manufacturers offers lorry engines to marine use. I know that Scania and Volvo do offer their engines at marine use at about that level of power output, but I can’t be arsed to check out the types and power outputs.

27

I can honestly say that European trucks are nowhere near as good at their job as the US trucks.

This week I have driven a Volvo FH12 Globetrotter XL 460, compared to my usual 379 Peterbilt it is a piece of crap, the ride is terrible (& UK roads are a thousand times better surrfaced than American roads & don’t get me started on Canadian roads…) it feels unstable, it is cramped, not just the silly little bed, but the driving position itself, I used to be a big fan of the FH, but after my Peterbilt I have changed my mind.

The US trucks won’t work over here though, it’s just too small.

Things I like about my Peterbilt,

1, the looks
2, the ride comfort
3, the power, 550hp pulling 36ton, whoosh…
4, the room
5, the lack of speed limiter
6, the lack of rattles & creaks

Things I like about the FH,

1, parking it up & going home.

28

hi all,
i totally agree with everyone’s viewpoint,yank trucks are a totally different vehicle to the europeans,some people hate them others don,t there are very good friends of mine whom i have known well for many years on the truck show circuit who have looked at me in disbelief and asked why? when they see my peterbilt.it’s as if i have “come out” as being gay!they cannot believe why i sold a volvo f16 and replaced it with a peterbilt.then when i take them out in it and they are watching everyone waving and smiling at you whilst you drive along the road and you can see you’r passengers smile increasing in size.
with regard to ride my 1983 pete 359 has the best ride of any truck i have ever been in or driven!a mate of mine came with me on a trip from south wales to belgium last summer and said mine was more comfortable and had a better ride than his 2007 scania 620.i will admit that whilst the steering lock is good, the low gearing in the steering combined with a long wheelbase mean the turning circle is like the exxon valdize!now i love this truck,everypart of it,it’s not better than a european truck and a european truck is no better than my pete,in my view comparing them is like comparing apples with eggs.
regards andrew

29

I drove artics in the UK for 15yrs or so and was lucky enough for this to include a V8 Scania Topline, Daf Superspace, FH Globetrotter and lastly a Magnum and in fairness they were very good trucks which i enjoyed driving at the time. Since i have been in Canada i have had a Kenworth and two Peterbilt 379’s.
With everything considered i would not want to swap my present truck for a Euro truck. Euro trucks are very technicaly advanced with all the electronics and automated gearboxes, etc but they are just trucks and nothing more.
The 2007 Pete 379 that i now drive (and practicaly live in) on the other hand is not just a truck. It is a proper piece of class. It has a 600bhp Cat C15 with an 18spd Fuller Roadranger and high speed diffs. (no speed limiter). The turbo whistles through the twin exhaust stacks and it pulls like a locomotive right down to 1100rpm. It has acres of stainless steel and polished alloy all factory fitted as standard.
The cab interior including the seats and steering wheel is trimmed out in leather and the dash has a dial for everything (and i mean everything. 18 in total!).
So what if it doesn’t have a very good turning circle? The roads are straight here anyway, Ha,ha.
Anyway, it has a huge walk through sleeper with full kitchen pack, workstation and 3’ 6" wide bed. It even has its own diesel generator for independant heating, aircon and mains voltage, etc.
To sum it up; in Britain i liked the trucks, over here i love the trucks.



30

About the definition of wheelbase, does wheelbase mean same measure in the New World as it does here? I think I’ve heard few times that wheelbase over there is measured between first and third axle opposed to the length between first and second axle (on a 6x4 unit)

Most people think that but in actual fact the measurement is from the centre of the steer axle to the centre point between the rear axles. (rear bogie).

31

ive driven a kenworth a C15 550 in it and have to say its a piece of art in itself, the way she pulls away from low revs is outstanding

32

phantom309:
Between two volvos i know which id have :sunglasses: :sunglasses: :sunglasses:


The white one in background of first pic :laughing: :laughing:

i would mix and match it, euro looks with yank space and interior spec!

33

Where is Cliff Warby to inject some common sense into the old Euro V Yanktank argument :exclamation: :exclamation: :grimacing:
An ex-pat who has been an O/O in the States for many years(drives a VN780 I think) and who would give his 2-cents worth in favour of the Euro trucks for sure :exclamation: :sunglasses:
You guys with the Pete 379’s:
Yes you have a fantastic size of sleeper birth but where do you spend most of your 12/14 hour working day :question:
Behind the wheel in a tiny cab with even smaller windows and a gearbox that was introduced in 1972 :exclamation: :blush:
None of you have admitted yet that you can sit in your drivers seat and touch the passenger window WITHOUT getting up :exclamation: :laughing:

I have more elbow room in the cab of my John Deere 7530 than you guys have in the CAB of your Pete 379’s :exclamation: :exclamation: :unamused:

34

Big truck i don’t care what you claim Cliff Warby says. I can speak from my own experience thankyou. These are PROPER trucks and have soul. I stand by every thing i have said in this thread and i mean it.

35

Read back, BT, I did admit it. Does it matter that I can reach the window? All that means is that I can lean it off if it frosts up without needing to stop. And it doesn’t really come down to looks for me. I like the ride in the Pete better and better. I can put in very long days in here without needing a can of deep freeze for my neck, and I don’t get the numbness I got in euro trucks.

It doesn’t bother me what you say. A season driving an aged truck across fields does not truly qualify you to opine so much.

36

having driven plenty of euro gear and then kenworths and freightliners, i have to say when you set off down the road with a CAT C15 or a ■■■■■■■ under your arse you KNOW you’re driving a truck, a proper truck, as comfy and pretty and neat and tidy as the euro stuff is, its all a bit plastic and driving miss daisy kinda gear in comparison

37

I have never known anything to pull like this Pete, and I have taken it all over NA. I still feel the ride on this truck is superior, the powertrain is excellent, the drivetrain is excellent. Just because they have been using the same combination for years doesn’t make it outdated, it just means Europe had a lot of catching up to do.

Fitting the same switches in a cab as they do in a car doesn’t make it any better, and having all the guages run from the stalk means that faults are easier to miss. If you have a guage telling you that your rear drive axle is getting hot then you know earlier, and having a fuel pressure guage is a good thing when it gets as cold as it does here.

So what if the cab is narrow? It has a flat floor, completely flat, which is still a fairly new thing in Euro trucks. Having the sleeper completely away from the driving cab is a good thing too. Zip up the curtains and you are off duty, end of story. Having the motor 10’ in front of you when you are in the sleeper, instead of beneath you is also good. No amount of insulation can protect you from the noise or heat but 10’ of space does.

38

bobthedog:
It doesn’t bother me what you say. A season driving an aged truck across fields does not truly qualify you to opine so much.

When I was there I drove two different Pete 379’s a KW T2000/T800/T600 and W900 as well as the scrap Freightliner 120FLD’s Volvo/Whites from Minto ND to Chickashaw OK and back again.
YES some had character AND soul and they looked good if you liked that sort off thing :exclamation: :unamused:
BUT,
There were noisy,all drum brakes :open_mouth:,ergonomics were a joke,“most” of the gauges are a waste of space,on county roads they handled like a wet lettuce and needed room the size of two football fields to get them turned.They were hard on fuel and I personally thought they were unreliable generally especially the trucks with Detroit and Cat engines.
You only need to go and look at the O/O threads on the NA trucking forums to see how numerous late model NA trucks seem to have some serious reliability probs. :blush:
Going down the big flat open freeways, yes hard to beat but anywhere else forget about it :exclamation: :exclamation:

I’m not one for stats but don’t the Euro trucks have far better Ft/lb torque figures than the equivalent horse NA truck :question:

BTW,
The Fuller RR box,do me a favour :question:
The Volvo i-shift and Merc power-shift are literally 38 years ahead of it :exclamation: :exclamation: :grimacing:

39

You know some of the places I take these trucks, and there is no way on earth I would take any standard euro truck up there- not because I am not brave enough but because I wouldn’t trust it to get me home again.

The reliability issue is even mentioned on late model trucks on here. It is largely to do with the bogus emissions equipment fitted to 07 and newer engines which is not suited, and which was thrown out by euro manufacturers anyway. It was trying to live up to international demands on emissions on the cheap and was a grave mistake on the builders parts. But my truck is a good example. Almost a million miles, no rebuilds, no ■■■■■■ or diffs replaced. It has had 2 clutches, a turbo and a water pump. If something isn’t right you can tell and someone can look at it without the aid of a Cray supercomputer. The parts are, generally speaking, standard so I can usually count on them having it in stock without having to wait four days for it to be shipped from Vladivostock.

You drove trucks that spend all their lives on the harvest. Give me a break. A farmers truck is what it amounts to and they don’t even need to be safetied. Half the time they are exempt from scales, too, simply because they are totally shot.

And your I shift would be a total waste of time in the boonies. The Roadranger may well have been built fo 38 years but who cares? If it is a good box then it is.

Why be so anti? Is it for pure antagonism? Makes no sense to me.

40

Going down the big flat open freeways, yes hard to beat but anywhere else forget about it

Thats exactly where we spend nearly all of our time for hells sake! I run the Mexico border from Canada. Why would i want an electronic gearbox that weighs twice as much and is ten times as complex■■? The reason the fuller has lasted for so long is because it is so well engineered. The only possible advantage that a synchromesh or an automated transmission has over a constant mesh is the fact that it requires much less skill to operate so anyone can user one. If you happen to take pride in having those skills there is no advantage to an I shift, etc at all. Just the extra weight and complexity (and cost). I take great satisfaction out of being a pro with a Fuller. Whoever said that about a volvo I shift?