Working in a fire station is NOT “in connection with the transport operation” therefore it is not work, therefore it is rest for the purposes of wtd/rtd.
You get a separate 48hrs per week allowance for the fire station and for driving.
"You may have to work more than 48 hours a week on average if you work in a job: … in the armed forces, emergency services "
That does not mean that emergency services workers can both exceed the 48 hour average over a reference period and have a clean slate for a second, driving job where rules apply specifically in order to prevent tired driving.
WTD is all about work, fire service duties are most definitely work.
RTD is a subset of WTD rules, but I would hope it’s obvious you can’t run operate both “work” systems simultaneously and separately, and have an average of 96 hours per week (2x separate 48 averages). You can operate under both systems but as long as the 48 average and 60 hour maximum is not exceeded in total.
Why should this be obvious? Imagine a scenario where someone is working 48 hours (or more, in an exempt occupation) then working in the haulage industry for X amount of hours per week too. Then picture an accident due to tiredness where people were killed or injured by the tired driver of an HGV. That’s the bottom line why we have these rules. Drivers go to jail for falling asleep at the wheel, even when no one is killed.
The DVSA would disagree with you, work for another employer cannot count as rest for the drivers hours and tachograph regulations but any work that is not for a road transport company who does work in-scope of EU regulations does not count towards the 48 hour average working time for the RT(WT)R 2005.
2.6 Working for two or more employers or another organisation For the purposes of the Regulations, working time is restricted to work for employers for whom a mobile worker carries out any in-scope road transport activities (i.e. work covered by the European drivers’ hours rules). It includes both road transport activities and any other work for such employers (for instance when a driver also works in an employer’s warehouse).
Work performed for employers who are not involved in road transport activities (for instance bar work) does not count
towards the limits under the Regulations. However, such work would count as part of the “daily working period” for the
purposes of determining compliance with the separate European drivers’ hours rules (i.e. bar work will impact on when
a worker can work and how much work they can do). In addition, all time spent working in such a second job does
count towards the 48 hour limit under the 1998 Working Time Regulations, but an opt out from this 48 hour limit is available.
Similarly, the Regulations do not apply to workers who work for employers who undertake some road transport activities
if the worker in question is not actually involved in such activities. In such cases, the worker would be subject to the
requirements of the 1998 Working Time Regulations.
If a mobile worker works for two or more employers, then the weekly working time under the Regulations is the combined
total of the hours worked (excluding breaks, rest and periods of availability) for all employers who undertake road transport
activities. The mobile worker must tell their employer(s) in writing, of any working time worked for another employer
who undertakes road transport activities.
Time spent on voluntary activities (e.g. driving a vehicle in a carnival/gala days) does not count towards the working time limits.
In addition, time spent performing activities for the emergency services or Armed Forces (such as being a retained fire fighter,
special constable, and duties performed whilst being a member of the reserve forces (Territorial Army etc)) should not count
towards the limits under the Regulations.
Nevertheless, employers should bear these other activities in mind when deciding how much work (and what type), can be
performed. Workers should not do any work that would compromise road safety or impair their health. In addition, all the
rest requirements and limits under the European drivers’ hours rules still apply. It should also be noted that under the
European drivers’ hours rules other work for another employer, within or outside the transport sector, must be recorded
for the purpose of checking compliance with that Regulation.
Working in a fire station is NOT “in connection with the transport operation” therefore it is not work, therefore it is rest for the purposes of wtd/rtd.
You get a separate 48hrs per week allowance for the fire station and for driving.
"You may have to work more than 48 hours a week on average if you work in a job: … in the armed forces, emergency services "
That does not mean that emergency services workers can both exceed the 48 hour average over a reference period and have a clean slate for a second, driving job where rules apply specifically in order to prevent tired driving.
WTD is all about work, fire service duties are most definitely work.
RTD is a subset of WTD rules, but I would hope it’s obvious you can’t run operate both “work” systems simultaneously and separately, and have an average of 96 hours per week (2x separate 48 averages). You can operate under both systems but as long as the 48 average and 60 hour maximum is not exceeded in total.
Why should this be obvious? Imagine a scenario where someone is working 48 hours (or more, in an exempt occupation) then working in the haulage industry for X amount of hours per week too. Then picture an accident due to tiredness where people were killed or injured by the tired driver of an HGV. That’s the bottom line why we have these rules. Drivers go to jail for falling asleep at the wheel, even when no one is killed.
Not only a good example, the other one of course is, do you really want the driver t then come along as a knakkkered fireman!!! For the OP, being sensible and able to justify to both employers is key and so far not enough info to decide yay or nay.
I don’t agree they would disagree. This is like the debate that occurred some while ago regarding domestic hours and not needing rest/breaks. Whilst these breaks are not explicitly stated, they still need to be “adequate” and the only measure of what would be legally adequate would be the WTD.
From your post
Work performed for employers who are not involved in road transport activities (for instance bar work) does not count towards the limits under the Regulations.
OK, but then (italics are mine)
However, such work would count as part of the “daily working period” for the purposes of determining compliance with the separate European drivers’ hours rules (i.e. bar work will impact on when a worker can work and how much work they can do). In addition, all time spent working in such a second job does count towards the 48 hour limit under the 1998 Working Time Regulations, but an opt out from this 48 hour limit is available.
But that opt out does not include exceeding the 60 hour max, there’s no opt-outs for that. So potentially, our emergency services worker could opt out of the 48 hour average, and so some extra work, but only up to the 60 hour maximum. Which is not the same thing as has been inferred by Stu’s reading of the literature where he believes the fireman can simply ignore the work in his primary job entirely as “not work” then crack on doing as much driving as he likes.
Additionally, whilst I don’t acually know you or your history, I’m quite confident that you know more than enough to be certain my description of the hypothetical SRVI is exactly how it would play out with the authorities, not just the DVSA and TC, but the Crown Court too.
It’s one thing for those of us who are happy to unpack the wording of guidance, legislation etc and mull over the interpretations, but quite another thing for someone to skim through a thread on here then go off digging theirself into an uncomfortable legal hole.
Working in a fire station is NOT “in connection with the transport operation” therefore it is not work, therefore it is rest for the purposes of wtd/rtd.
You get a separate 48hrs per week allowance for the fire station and for driving.
"You may have to work more than 48 hours a week on average if you work in a job: … in the armed forces, emergency services "
That does not mean that emergency services workers can both exceed the 48 hour average over a reference period and have a clean slate for a second, driving job where rules apply specifically in order to prevent tired driving.
WTD is all about work, fire service duties are most definitely work.
RTD is a subset of WTD rules, but I would hope it’s obvious you can’t run operate both “work” systems simultaneously and separately, and have an average of 96 hours per week (2x separate 48 averages). You can operate under both systems but as long as the 48 average and 60 hour maximum is not exceeded in total.
Why should this be obvious? Imagine a scenario where someone is working 48 hours (or more, in an exempt occupation) then working in the haulage industry for X amount of hours per week too. Then picture an accident due to tiredness where people were killed or injured by the tired driver of an HGV. That’s the bottom line why we have these rules. Drivers go to jail for falling asleep at the wheel, even when no one is killed.
I’m not really concerned with what’s obvious.
Only what has been written into law.
If I accept the 60 hr per week limit, fire service work is 48hrs per 8 days (42 per week) leaving 18hrs per week (20.5 per 8 days) i.e. more than I expect anyone would want to work/drive.
But yeah I always thought it was a limit across ALL jobs. There’s WTD for all workers and also WTD for road transport workers. But your average is 48hrs WORKING TIME (not attendance time) across all jobs
stu675:
I’m not really concerned with what’s obvious.
Only what has been written into law.
You should be concerned about obvious examples, they’re there for clarity, because according to your earlier understading of the law you thought the fire service work didn’t count as work: are you now accepting that it does?
If I accept the 60 hr per week limit, fire service work is 48hrs per 8 days (42 per week) leaving 18hrs per week (20.5 per 8 days) i.e. more than I expect anyone would want to work/drive.
It’s 48 hours per fixed week, the 4-on-4-off is not the main factor. Also, while he can opt out of the 48 hours for his main job, that doesn’t necessarily make it ok once he starts mixing some driving in with it. What if the TC decides that the opt-out is not acceptable when it’s mixed with RTD where no opt out of the 48 is allowed?
TCs frequently interpret the rules according to their (extensive) remit, is our fireman going to get into a battle with the TC (like Ahoy Truckers) just to earn a few bob from a couple of shifts?
stu675:
I’m not really concerned with what’s obvious.
Only what has been written into law.
You should be concerned about obvious examples, they’re there for clarity, because according to your earlier understading of the law you thought the fire service work didn’t count as work: are you now accepting that it does?
No
If I accept the 60 hr per week limit, fire service work is 48hrs per 8 days (42 per week) leaving 18hrs per week (20.5 per 8 days) i.e. more than I expect anyone would want to work/drive.
It’s 48 hours per fixed week, the 4-on-4-off is not the main factor.
ok, so 48 hrs Mon -Thu leaves him 12 hrs on Sunday to make 60. Then 12 hrs Mon plus 48 hrs Tuesday -Fri. Then 12 hrs Mon OR Tue and Wed-Sat 48 hrs. Carry on like that.
Also, while he can opt out of the 48 hours for his main job, that doesn’t necessarily make it ok once he starts mixing some driving in with it. What if the TC decides that the opt-out is not acceptable when it’s mixed with RTD where no opt out of the 48 is allowed?
TCs frequently interpret the rules according to their (extensive) remit, is our fireman going to get into a battle with the TC (like Ahoy Truckers) just to earn a few bob from a couple of shifts?
If the TC is just going to make up rules that aren’t written down anywhere, then we could all end up like Ahoy Truckers.
Interpreting rules and making up rules aren’t quite the same thing: the TC would base their view on what is safe or unsafe. An argument based on maxxing out hours by invoking an exemption for the emergency services then trying to shoehorn that into the WTD/RTD rules is not likely to be seen as safe.
TCs aren’t necessarily monsters trying to put people out of work, they just take the safety of HGV & PSV operators and drivers very seriously. And whatever might have been done to Ahoy Truckers (assuming there was anything at all genuine about that character) would have been entirely his own fault.
It’s a pity Nick Denton (former TC) didn’t stick around after he joined us here on TN, it could have been very useful to get info “from the horses mouth” to settle debates.
Zac_A:
the TC would base their view on what is safe or unsafe. An argument based on maxxing out hours by invoking an exemption for the emergency services then trying to shoehorn that into the WTD/RTD rules is not likely to be seen as safe.
Amongst other things the DVSA are responsible for enforcing the drivers hours and tachograph regulations and the road transport working time regulations, it is not their job to enforce their opinions.
The regulations are fairly clear about who does and does not work in-scope of the road transport working time regulations, it’s clear that work that does not involve being part of a transport crew for a company outside of the road transport industry does not come in-scope of the RT(WT)R.
I mentioned the TC, not DVSA, and as per earlier post where I quoted what you had posted
such work would count as part of the “daily working period” for the purposes of determining compliance with the separate European drivers’ hours rules (i.e. bar work [we can substitute fire service work here] will impact on when a worker can work and how much work they can do). In addition, all time spent working in such a second job does count towards the 48 hour limit under the 1998 Working Time Regulations
I’m not bothered if you want to encourage people to think they can ignore the limits on how long they can work, and anyone who wants to follow your lead can please themselves, but it is not an accurate depiction of what will be acceptable to the authorities in the event of a serious accident or fatality, where this will be tested in Crown Court.
Zac_A:
I mentioned the TC, not DVSA, and as per earlier post where I quoted what you had posted
such work would count as part of the “daily working period” for the purposes of determining compliance with the separate European drivers’ hours rules (i.e. bar work [we can substitute fire service work here] will impact on when a worker can work and how much work they can do). In addition, all time spent working in such a second job does count towards the 48 hour limit under the 1998 Working Time Regulations
I’m not bothered if you want to encourage people to think they can ignore the limits on how long they can work, and anyone who wants to follow your lead can please themselves, but it is not an accurate depiction of what will be acceptable to the authorities in the event of a serious accident or fatality, where this will be tested in Crown Court.
Nowhere have I suggested that none driving work does not count as other work for the drivers hours and tachograph regulations, in fact I said in an earlier post that it cannot be counted as rest for the drivers hours regulations.
Nor have I suggested that none driving work does not count towards the 1998 working time regulations, though that can be opted out of anyway, so I don’t really understand the point you’re trying to make
As far as I can see none of this has anything to do with the average 48 hours working time for the RT(WT)R.
My point is I think you’re giving a very wrong impression on driver compliance.
I don’t know any other TM who would have someone working 48 hours a week in another job then regularly give them work driving; for sure they would not be driving any of my 44T tippers or 32T roros.
My last post was intended to convey “I’m out”, but for absolute clarity, there it is.
P999FFB:
It’s amazing that even between a group of drivers on here, experienced guys and girls who do this day in, day out, there is still such a variation in the responses to this scenario.
There are few drivers who are familiar with all the complex hours and records rules. If, as I used to do, you only work five 10-hour days for a single employer, there is simply no need to worry about double-manning, ferry rests, or working for more than one employer.
Unfortunately, as on all forums, there are always people who think they know, but get it wrong.
