Wheel Holder:
If I were you I’d probably just do a manual entry saying I’d been on rest in between the days I was using a vehicle to drive in scope.
Yikes, that’s straight forward fraudulent records and a trip to the TC.
One of the main reasons for the manual records, is exactly for the likes of the OP…… those who are working full time and wanting to add some driving time.
Untrue records may get past the casual roadside check, BUT if or when it goes wrong, either during hgv or work at the fire service, that’s when it makes a real difference. Do it wrong and suddenly it’s the potential of losing HGV entitlement and your full time job.
We assume you are declaring the driving for tax purposes and notified employer if it’s a term in employment contract.
All driving is fully declared for tax purposes and the fire service is aware and given permission for secondary employment, so no issues there. I think the advice regarding writing the working week on the back of the discs is a good idea, i may look into that.
Its amazing that even between a group of drivers on here, experienced guys and girls who do this day in, day out, there is still such a variation in the responses to this scenario. I thank everyone for taking the time to respond though, it is helpful to have options.
P999FFB:
Its amazing that even between a group of drivers on here, experienced guys and girls who do this day in, day out, there is still such a variation in the responses to this scenario. I thank everyone for taking the time to respond though, it is helpful to have options.
PB
THe rules have only recently changed/been tightened up so some aren’t aware. Also for a vast majority of us we don’t do anything else so it’s a situation that they’re not likely to come across so don’t pay much attention to the fact there was a change in the regs.
You’ve then got some who do know but have the “they’re not likely to find out so why bother” point of view which to be fair is quite a valid one, they likely won’t right to the point you end up in an accident and then they’ll go through everything with a fine tooth comb.
The ? Mode on the tacho is all you need here. From end of last shift in truck to start of current shift in truck, just use the ? Mode . No other entries required.
masetheace:
The ? Mode on the tacho is all you need here. From end of last shift in truck to start of current shift in truck, just use the ? Mode . No other entries required.
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That is not allowed anymore the rules have changed… gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … raph-rules Read sub section 4.2 and 4.3 IN FULL to give you the knowledge you need to comply with THE LAW…its all in there, pay particular attention to the section in 4.3 entitled ‘‘recording other work’’.
Wheel Holder:
If I were you I’d probably just do a manual entry saying I’d been on rest in between the days I was using a vehicle to drive in scope.
Yikes, that’s straight forward fraudulent records and a trip to the TC.
One of the main reasons for the manual records, is exactly for the likes of the OP…… those who are working full time and wanting to add some driving time.
Untrue records may get past the casual roadside check, BUT if or when it goes wrong, either during hgv or work at the fire service, that’s when it makes a real difference. Do it wrong and suddenly it’s the potential of losing HGV entitlement and your full time job.
We assume you are declaring the driving for tax purposes and notified employer if it’s a term in employment contract.
All driving is fully declared for tax purposes and the fire service is aware and given permission for secondary employment, so no issues there. I think the advice regarding writing the working week on the back of the discs is a good idea, i may look into that.
Its amazing that even between a group of drivers on here, experienced guys and girls who do this day in, day out, there is still such a variation in the responses to this scenario. I thank everyone for taking the time to respond though, it is helpful to have options.
PB
The variance in opinions can be solved by reading the actual rules gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … raph-rules plenty of info there about having to record other jobs as other work and how to do it, it also tells you that diaries are no longer allowed. The paper disc tachograph option mentioned above seems like the best option but seriously you could do the manual entries in less than 5 minutes with a bit of practice.
shullbit:
The variance in opinions can be solved by reading the actual rules gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … raph-rules plenty of info there about having to record other jobs as other work and how to do it, it also tells you that diaries are no longer allowed. The paper disc tachograph option mentioned above seems like the best option but seriously you could do the manual entries in less than 5 minutes with a bit of practice.
I think you don’t understand how easy it is to write on tacho printer paper. Writing:-
Monday 1/2/21 - Friday 5/2/21 48 hours working in the fire station, Friday 5/2/21 0930 - Tuesday 8/2/21 0930 96 hours rest.
This would require 8 separate tacho discs each with all your details added. Start and finish times every day, all your breaks all correctly recorded.
Compared with a roll of printer paper where you write your details once and it will last for years.
shullbit:
The variance in opinions can be solved by reading the actual rules gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … raph-rules plenty of info there about having to record other jobs as other work and how to do it, it also tells you that diaries are no longer allowed. The paper disc tachograph option mentioned above seems like the best option but seriously you could do the manual entries in less than 5 minutes with a bit of practice.
I think you don’t understand how easy it is to write on tacho printer paper. Writing:-
Monday 1/2/21 - Friday 5/2/21 48 hours working in the fire station, Friday 5/2/21 0930 - Tuesday 8/2/21 0930 96 hours rest.
This would require 8 separate tacho discs each with all your details added. Start and finish times every day, all your breaks all correctly recorded.
Compared with a roll of printer paper where you write your details once and it will last for years.
The wax taco discs is not my idea, it is from someone else’s post above, nothing wrong with either method. Make sure you read everything properly before jumping down someone’s throat.
shullbit:
The variance in opinions can be solved by reading the actual rules gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … raph-rules plenty of info there about having to record other jobs as other work and how to do it, it also tells you that diaries are no longer allowed. The paper disc tachograph option mentioned above seems like the best option but seriously you could do the manual entries in less than 5 minutes with a bit of practice.
I think you don’t understand how easy it is to write on tacho printer paper. Writing:-
Monday 1/2/21 - Friday 5/2/21 48 hours working in the fire station, Friday 5/2/21 0930 - Tuesday 8/2/21 0930 96 hours rest.
This would require 8 separate tacho discs each with all your details added. Start and finish times every day, all your breaks all correctly recorded.
Compared with a roll of printer paper where you write your details once and it will last for years.
A 48 hour shift? Is that an accurate record?
Nowt wrong with tacho roll, nor discs. Both require the same info recorded. Place of start/finish written in, duty start/end times and breaks are recorded by a line on a graph on both media.
And no need for daily discs for each rest day. Records are to be kept when at work, not when on rest*.
I suggested discs because I find them (from years of habit) easy to manage.
One box, take fresh disc from back, use, and replace in front of box. Easy to get out and show to whomsoever is interested.
Small bits of paper are too delicate for my ham-fisted ways.
*Not relevant to this thread
When we used discs it was fine (arguably not necessary) to insert one disc on a Saturday night, and take it out Mon morning, showing 36 hrs of rest. Fine to do that for the 4 days off the OP has.
Franglais:
*Not relevant to this thread
When we used discs it was fine (arguably not necessary) to insert one disc on a Saturday night, and take it out Mon morning, showing 36 hrs of rest. Fine to do that for the 4 days off the OP has.
Are you sure, I seem to remember there was a rule, and probably still is, that a chart could only be used for a 24 hour period, at the end of the day a chart will only accurately record for 24 hours anyway, after that it’s just overwriting itself.
Personally I’d write the manual entries on printout paper, but at the end of the day it’s whatever the driver finds easiest and most convenient really.
Franglais:
*Not relevant to this thread
When we used discs it was fine (arguably not necessary) to insert one disc on a Saturday night, and take it out Mon morning, showing 36 hrs of rest. Fine to do that for the 4 days off the OP has.
Are you sure, I seem to remember there was a rule, and probably still is, that a chart could only be used for a 24 hour period, at the end of the day a chart will only accurately record for 24 hours anyway, after that it’s just overwriting itself.
Personally I’d write the manual entries on printout paper, but at the end of the day it’s whatever the driver finds easiest and most convenient really.
Yes, agreed a disc overwrites after 24hrs.
I never saw it tried in court, but looking at 36hrs off:
A disc isnt necessary as you arent at work.
Spanish and French police did however want to see a disc(s) at the roadside. Maybe they had no rights but, sat at the roadside, its easier to just do it. They werent very happy to rely on the distance trace (km) being the same at end of one disc and start of next.
I don`t believe it is OK to set an alarm to change discs at the same time every day, to avoid overwrites, (changing a disc is work) especially if on 36 off. Try waking me on a Sunday morning at Victors!
Controls from French and Spanish cops, with no counter arguments from them.
Avoiding overwrites by using more than one disc in 24 did make for queries too. Coppers are suspicious sonso`s!
My strategy was to put in a disc for 36hrs, and just leave it. Better IMHO than the alternatives.
Surely the best solution for the OP is to get in touch with Stobarts. I seem to recall them getting a lot of advice from DVSA a while ago about employing firemen on their days off …
Beau Nydel:
Surely the best solution for the OP is to get in touch with Stobarts. I seem to recall them getting a lot of advice from DVSA a while ago about employing firemen on their days off …
As long as he adheres to his rest periods I don’t see there being any problem, and the last advert I saw for the fire service mentioned that there was ample opportunity to do a second job due to the shift system, so it seems fire service aren’t bothered about moonlighting anymore, so crack on.
If I’m a trade plate car driver, I can drive literally as many hours as I want, work another job as a pot washer over the weekend and declare/record none of it.
I was hit up the rear by one of your type and I’m going to court over it in the not too distant future, as the cowboy is denying liability.
That really needs to change its becoming more and more popular trade plating and driving 20 hours a day, really does.
The fella that hit me is regularly sending what’s apps advertising newcastle to London daily despite living in yorkshire. I don’t think he is realising he is sending me them despite his upcoming court appearance and them being able to be used as part of my case.
Acorn:
How long are the 4x shifts and do you do any overtime? Obviously looking at the WTD average hrs Can you still comply over the 26 wks?
Wtf? I thought you knew what you were talking about?
Are you suggesting adding fireman wtd hours to driving wtdrt hours? Or have I not understood you?
Wtd is all working, if nothing else, it’s about managing rest and overall working, it’s not 48 for fire and a separate 48 for driving!! Otherwise a driver working for several operators wouldn’t need to make the declarations
Acorn:
How long are the 4x shifts and do you do any overtime? Obviously looking at the WTD average hrs Can you still comply over the 26 wks?
Wtf? I thought you knew what you were talking about?
Are you suggesting adding fireman wtd hours to driving wtdrt hours? Or have I not understood you?
Wtd is all working, if nothing else, it’s about managing rest and overall working, it’s not 48 for fire and a separate 48 for driving!! Otherwise a driver working for several operators wouldn’t need to make the declarations
Working in a fire station is NOT “in connection with the transport operation” therefore it is not work, therefore it is rest for the purposes of wtd/rtd.
You get a separate 48hrs per week allowance for the fire station and for driving.
Jimmy McNulty:
I was hit up the rear by one of your type
I’m curious…
As to what you think my type is?
I used the word ‘if’ quite prominently to infer the situation. I haven’t trade plated for years. I was trying to illustrate how futile the idea of recording every minute of your life to comply with arse about face laws when, other similar industries do as they please.
I wish you every success in your upcoming adventures in court.
Working in a fire station is NOT “in connection with the transport operation” therefore it is not work, therefore it is rest for the purposes of wtd/rtd.
You get a separate 48hrs per week allowance for the fire station and for driving.
"You may have to work more than 48 hours a week on average if you work in a job: … in the armed forces, emergency services "
That does not mean that emergency services workers can both exceed the 48 hour average over a reference period and have a clean slate for a second, driving job where rules apply specifically in order to prevent tired driving.
WTD is all about work, fire service duties are most definitely work.
RTD is a subset of WTD rules, but I would hope it’s obvious you can’t run operate both “work” systems simultaneously and separately, and have an average of 96 hours per week (2x separate 48 averages). You can operate under both systems but as long as the 48 average and 60 hour maximum is not exceeded in total.
Why should this be obvious? Imagine a scenario where someone is working 48 hours (or more, in an exempt occupation) then working in the haulage industry for X amount of hours per week too. Then picture an accident due to tiredness where people were killed or injured by the tired driver of an HGV. That’s the bottom line why we have these rules. Drivers go to jail for falling asleep at the wheel, even when no one is killed.
Working in a fire station is NOT “in connection with the transport operation” therefore it is not work, therefore it is rest for the purposes of wtd/rtd.
You get a separate 48hrs per week allowance for the fire station and for driving.
"You may have to work more than 48 hours a week on average if you work in a job: … in the armed forces, emergency services "
That does not mean that emergency services workers can both exceed the 48 hour average over a reference period and have a clean slate for a second, driving job where rules apply specifically in order to prevent tired driving.
WTD is all about work, fire service duties are most definitely work.
RTD is a subset of WTD rules, but I would hope it’s obvious you can’t run operate both “work” systems simultaneously and separately, and have an average of 96 hours per week (2x separate 48 averages). You can operate under both systems but as long as the 48 average and 60 hour maximum is not exceeded in total.
Why should this be obvious? Imagine a scenario where someone is working 48 hours (or more, in an exempt occupation) then working in the haulage industry for X amount of hours per week too. Then picture an accident due to tiredness where people were killed or injured by the tired driver of an HGV. That’s the bottom line why we have these rules. Drivers go to jail for falling asleep at the wheel, even when no one is killed.
Not only a good example, the other one of course is, do you really want the driver t then come along as a knakkkered fireman!!! For the OP, being sensible and able to justify to both employers is key and so far not enough info to decide yay or nay.
