Hi just looking for some advice please. I have been driving class 1 for over 10 years for a company employed and have recently left. I am now with an agency employed through an umbrella company which is the same as ltd you dont get any sick/holiday pay. The question i have is when you are employed you are entitled to holiday pay but when you take it you are still credited 48 hours or 8 hours a day on tachomaster so this does not bring your average hours down. If you are self employed do i have to take 20 days holiday unpaid and credit myself 48 hours on tachomaster for each week or can i work all year round without a holiday, or can i work 60 hours a week after breaks/poa and once my everage is too high take a week off and bring my average back down because im not being paid for my time off?
I have searched online but cant find any advice so thought other drivers must know the answers. Will greatly appreciate any advice.
Even if you’re employed on normal PAYE you don’t have to take your holiday, its entirely up to you. Your employer can choose to pay you statutory holiday pay in addition to your pay if you don’t however they must give you the opportunity to take the time off but as I said, its up to you if you decide you want to or not.
Not paid = not holiday and therefore no hours penalty. Its the same as using a rest day for DCPC (or any training course) with the line drawn between paid or unpaid. Paid = working time. Unpaid = not working time!
Thanks for the replies. Then im free to hammer the overtime untill the end of the 17 week reference period then take a week or so off to get my hours back down. I suppose this is only fair as you dont get holiday pay so i will need to put extra hours in to afford a week off unpaid. I thought this would be the case but needed it clarifying. Thanks again for the help.
Depending on the type of work you do with clever use of break (or dare I say it? ) POA, even maxxing your hours out will see you not falling foul of the WTD over your reference period.
just keep working, its unlikely youll bust the limit with WTD. Dont forget to factor in the lean times ahead which will level your average, and send it nose diving off a cliff
Conor:
Even if you’re employed on normal PAYE you don’t have to take your holiday, its entirely up to you. Your employer can choose to pay you statutory holiday pay in addition to your pay if you don’t however they must give you the opportunity to take the time off but as I said, its up to you if you decide you want to or not.
The Road Transport Working Time Regulations tell us that workers MUST TAKE their holidays. The worker cannot forego them or be paid in lieu of them and they cannot be ‘lost’ at the end of the year for not taking them.
But what I am mainly confused about is whether the OP is an Operator■■? If he’s not an operator operating his own truck then it isn’t his concern - it’s whoever he drives for has to work all the average etc out and deal with it accordingly.
Bear in mind that only crossed hammers and driving time counts towards the WTD. Rest periods, breaks and POA are not counted.
OP appears to be a sub contractor through an agency or direct to client. No O licence or truck but we are still responsible for own compliance. Its the driver that gets fined!
why not go on your holiday
scanny77:
Bear in mind that only crossed hammers and driving time counts towards the WTD. Rest periods, breaks and POA are not counted.OP appears to be a sub contractor through an agency or direct to client. No O licence or truck but we are still responsible for own compliance. Its the driver that gets fined!
There are no fines for WTD(RTD). No fixed penalties. Yes you ‘can’ be prosecuted but highly unlikely for the 60 hour week or 48 hour average - they tend to go for the company as it is their responsibility. Same for holidays - it’s the employers responsibility.
DVSA would find it almost impossible to Police the 60 hour week or 48 hour average etc at the roadside anyway.
But yes you/the OP are doing the right thing to try to monitor it and comply.
Don’t get me wrong, but as a self-employed driver shoud’nt your rates reflect the lack of holiday pay ?
shep532:
The Road Transport Working Time Regulations tell us that workers MUST TAKE their holidays. The worker cannot forego them or be paid in lieu of them and they cannot be ‘lost’ at the end of the year for not taking them.
.
I’ve just read it and it says that nowhere. What is interesting from reading it is this:
Becuase the EU wide statutory minimum paid holidays is 4 weeks, only 4 weeks holiday has to be recorded as 48hrs per week.
The additional 1.6 week’s statutory annual leave entitlement is a domestic requirement provided for by regulation 13 A of the 1998
Regulations and does not have to be considered as ‘neutral’. This additional leave can be recorded as non-working time when calculating weekly working hours.
So only 4 weeks of your holiday has to be recorded as “work” for the WTD in order to prevent employers abusing it to get the average down.
Gets better. If its a day you’re taking off it has to be recorded as 8hrs work up to the first 4 weeks but if its a week it has to be recorded as 48hrs. So if you take 4 days off its recorded as 32hrs but 5 days is 48.
Conor:
shep532:
The Road Transport Working Time Regulations tell us that workers MUST TAKE their holidays. The worker cannot forego them or be paid in lieu of them and they cannot be ‘lost’ at the end of the year for not taking them.
.I’ve just read it and it says that nowhere. What is interesting from reading it is this:
Becuase the EU wide statutory minimum paid holidays is 4 weeks, only 4 weeks holiday has to be recorded as 48hrs per week.
The additional 1.6 week’s statutory annual leave entitlement is a domestic requirement provided for by regulation 13 A of the 1998
Regulations and does not have to be considered as ‘neutral’. This additional leave can be recorded as non-working time when calculating weekly working hours.So only 4 weeks of your holiday has to be recorded as “work” for the WTD in order to prevent employers abusing it to get the average down.
Gets better. If its a day you’re taking off it has to be recorded as 8hrs work up to the first 4 weeks but if its a week it has to be recorded as 48hrs. So if you take 4 days off its recorded as 32hrs but 5 days is 48.
Yes you are right about the first 20 days only … I’ll have to find the information I have regarding having to take the holidays - I know I have it somewhere.
shep532:
Conor:
shep532:
The Road Transport Working Time Regulations tell us that workers MUST TAKE their holidays. The worker cannot forego them or be paid in lieu of them and they cannot be ‘lost’ at the end of the year for not taking them.
.I’ve just read it and it says that nowhere. What is interesting from reading it is this:
Becuase the EU wide statutory minimum paid holidays is 4 weeks, only 4 weeks holiday has to be recorded as 48hrs per week.
The additional 1.6 week’s statutory annual leave entitlement is a domestic requirement provided for by regulation 13 A of the 1998
Regulations and does not have to be considered as ‘neutral’. This additional leave can be recorded as non-working time when calculating weekly working hours.So only 4 weeks of your holiday has to be recorded as “work” for the WTD in order to prevent employers abusing it to get the average down.
Gets better. If its a day you’re taking off it has to be recorded as 8hrs work up to the first 4 weeks but if its a week it has to be recorded as 48hrs. So if you take 4 days off its recorded as 32hrs but 5 days is 48.
Yes you are right about the first 20 days only … I’ll have to find the information I have regarding having to take the holidays - I know I have it somewhere.
OK potentially I may have been wrong but in a right kindda way 
- it is employment law that states an employee may not be paid in lieu of holidays unless leaving the employment. It also states how much can legally be rolled over into the next year (8 days if you get 28 days or anything over 28 days). Therefore I read this as saying if you can’t be paid in lieu and you can’t roll the first 20 days over into the next year and you have to be given those 20 days then ultimately you gotta take them!
So I reckon I was right that holidays (first 20 days) MUST be taken
No problem. Damned stuff is all a minefield.
shep532:
scanny77:
Bear in mind that only crossed hammers and driving time counts towards the WTD. Rest periods, breaks and POA are not counted.OP appears to be a sub contractor through an agency or direct to client. No O licence or truck but we are still responsible for own compliance. Its the driver that gets fined!
There are no fines for WTD(RTD). No fixed penalties. Yes you ‘can’ be prosecuted but highly unlikely for the 60 hour week or 48 hour average - they tend to go for the company as it is their responsibility. Same for holidays - it’s the employers responsibility.
DVSA would find it almost impossible to Police the 60 hour week or 48 hour average etc at the roadside anyway.
But yes you/the OP are doing the right thing to try to monitor it and comply.
We have to keep the client happy and they seem to want us compliant with the working time nonsense. I refuse to break the regs anyway so it doesn’t bother me if they monitor my hours. The are much stricter with their own guys and when the see an issue with one of us they just put their hands up and say ‘nothing to do with us’ even though that is unrealistic. ANY infringement on their vehicle is against their O licence
Hi, thanks for all the replies. I knew that if you where paye you had to take 4 weeks and record 48 hours or 8 hours a day. I didnt realise that it was compulsary to take the 4 weeks and record them as 48 hours if you are ltd working for an agency. The job im doing now i have to load myself and tip myself 2 runs a shift so no chance of booking extra breaks or poa during shift, so if i put the hours in working 5 days a week it will be 60 hours a week and by the end off the 17 week reference period was hoping to take a week or so off to bring my hours down but if i have to record 48 hours on my weeks off i cant do this. Its a shame because i know i must be nuts but i enjoy the job as it is keeping me fit, im getting plenty of exersise whilst working but no chance legally to keep my hours down as im only taking one 45 min break a day. I have worked it out and i will have to take too much time off unpaid over the year for this job to work out financially. No wonder they cant get drivers the hourly rate is good but without holiday pay or paid time off to get wtd hours back down its not worth it. Ill just have to find another job where i can sit on a bay being tipped on break and keep getting fatter with no exersise. Thanks again for all the help.
Speak to the operator and explain why you don’t think the job can be done legally and see if they’ll do anything about the loading aspect to reduce your working hours
Thanks pierre the operator has a 4 on 4 off shift i suspect this is why to keep hours down but i cannot afford to do that shift pattern financially. With regards to the loading/unloading this is compulsary the driver has to do it. Like i say they cannot get drivers for love of money most because they dont want to do the physical side of the job the rest because of the financial side i now suspect. They have no core drivers all agency ltd/umberella i now suspect because it would cost them a fortune to pay for holidays and wtd stand down. I already have another job lined up so i a just going to move on. As the driver shortage continues places like this are going to find it impossible to get drivers. They need to employ core drivers and pay a decent wage the sooner they realise this the better. Big transport companies trying to reduce costs because of undercutting the competition. In the future i hope they all lose the contracts due to not being able to get drivers maybe then the rates will go up when they realise its ok to undercut but when you cant afford to pay the drivers a decent wage with holiday pay etc the drivers will all go where the money is.
jedimaca:
Thanks pierre the operator has a 4 on 4 off shift i suspect this is why to keep hours down but i cannot afford to do that shift pattern financially.
Not being funny but why not? 4 on 4 off should pay at least the same amount as a standard 5 day week or even more to take account of the fact it involves Saturdays and Sundays.
Methinks you want to be talking to the agency. I can guarantee you they’ll be booking you out on a Saturday and Sunday at enhanced rates even though they’re paying you flat rate.
If you enjoy doing the work why not speak with the company and ask them about going direct? You get to cut out the agency, get some of the agency’s cut and all is good.