I’ve been doing some work taking stones from a quarry. I delivered these stones and got back to the quarry with literally a couple of minutes to spare it short of 4.5 hours. I told this guy who is a kind of manager there and he said to just take the tacho card out and get the lorry loaded ready for a delivery in the morning. Is this a common occurenece? Couldn’t the company get into trouble doing this because the movement is still being recorded? Could I get into trouble?
Ader1:
I’ve been doing some work taking stones from a quarry. I delivered these stones and got back to the quarry with literally a couple of minutes to spare it short of 4.5 hours. I told this guy who is a kind of manager there and he said to just take the tacho card out and get the lorry loaded ready for a delivery in the morning. Is this a common occurenece? Couldn’t the company get into trouble doing this because the movement is still being recorded? Could I get into trouble?
Dumb manager - as the lorry was not going out again then its out of scope for the eu regs so the card should be left in and - out of scope selected
Driving off the road is only counted when it is part of the journey - your journey had finished and the lorry was at base
I am assuming that the quarry is the base where the lorry is parked up ■■?
All your work must be recorded
If I would select ‘Out of Scope’ and I was due a break would I be breaking the law? Yes the lorry is parked up there during the night. I did say ‘manage’ but in fact he’s the only guy in the only thing resembling an office there and takes care of the wiegh-bridge etc. This is in fact Agency work for me. Don’t really like it as you just get told where you lorry is and where to go. I turned up at my destination and they asked me if I had been given and induction to which I lied and said ‘yes’. And was told to have protective glasses next time or I wouldn’t be allowed on the site. It’s a good job there was a hard hat in the lorry. It’s as if nobody cares at all about the agency guy. Hell…I’m the only one at the company as far as I’m aware.
NB How do I get into ‘Out of Scope’?
The following is taken from the VOSA publication on Drivers Hours
Note: Driving time includes any off-road parts of a journey where the rest of that journey is made on
the public highway. Journeys taking place entirely off road would be considered as ‘other work’.
So, for example, any time spent driving off road between a parking/rest area and a passenger-loading
area prior to travelling out onto a public road would constitute driving time. But it would be regarded
as other work where all the passengers were picked up and dropped off on the same off-road site.
I would say that relating the 2nd paragraph to LGV’s the loading of the truck forms a part of the next journey and should therefore be counted as other work. If the stones were being loaded off road for delivery to the same off road site then that would resemble ‘Out of Scope’ This option is selected from within the Vehicle Entry menu options on a Siemens tacho.
If the loading process is to be counted as Other Work then a 45 minute break would be needed when 4.5hrs driving time is reached. One possible option to save the argument back at the quarry is to take the break before arriving back there.
Ader1:
If I would select ‘Out of Scope’ and I was due a break would I be breaking the law? Yes the lorry is parked up there during the night.
How do I get into ‘Out of Scope’?
If you have not reached 4.5 hours of driving at that point then no driving time break is needed
Scroll through the menu to find - out of scope
The loading after you ended that run - when you entered the quarry - is deffo not driving time for the EU regs
ROG:
The loading after you ended that run - when you entered the quarry - is deffo not driving time for the EU regs
How have you come to that conclusion ?
Ader1:
This is in fact Agency work for me. Don’t really like it as you just get told where you lorry is and where to go
Do you drive the same lorry everyday ?
Or to put it another way, the next morning will you be delivering the load that you loaded before finishing work the previous evening.
tachograph:
ROG:
The loading after you ended that run - when you entered the quarry - is deffo not driving time for the EU regsHow have you come to that conclusion ?
Member geebee45, graham explained it to me during the last 6 months and I am certainly not going to disagree with him !
ROG:
tachograph:
ROG:
The loading after you ended that run - when you entered the quarry - is deffo not driving time for the EU regsHow have you come to that conclusion ?
Member geebee45, graham explained it to me during the last 6 months and I am certainly not going to disagree with him !
Then perhaps you could explain it to us.
I’m not saying what you said about the quarry driving being out of scope is wrong, just that I’m not convinced it’s right either.
tachograph:
ROG:
tachograph:
ROG:
The loading after you ended that run - when you entered the quarry - is deffo not driving time for the EU regsHow have you come to that conclusion ?
Member geebee45, graham explained it to me during the last 6 months and I am certainly not going to disagree with him !
Then perhaps you could explain it to us.
I’m not saying what you said about the quarry driving being out of scope is wrong, just that I’m not convinced it’s right either.
Have alerted geebee45 to this thread so am hoping he might answer how its come to that conclusion - better than me trying to remember how !!
tachograph:
Ader1:
This is in fact Agency work for me. Don’t really like it as you just get told where you lorry is and where to goDo you drive the same lorry everyday ?
Or to put it another way, the next morning will you be delivering the load that you loaded before finishing work the previous evening.
I thought I was going to be delivering it the next day but they told me that I wasn’t needed. However, I’ve just received a call saying they want me again tomorrow on another lorry apparently owned by another firm but I’ll still be working for the original company I was employed for through the agency. Not sure what that’s about. So tomorrow will probable be a struggel again not knowing the lorry and the gears etc. I’m not liking this agency lark.
I don’t feel as if my original question has been resolved. Even ‘seasnoned’ drivers are disagrreing. Help!
From the DVSA/VOSA guide GV262-03 …
Note: Driving time includes any off-road parts of a journey where the rest of that journey is made on
the public highway.
It is the definition of the word JOURNEY which is key
There could be many journeys made during a shift
A journey seems to be deemed as starting and finishing at base
If the base is a quarry then one journey finishes on entering that quarry/base and another journey starts on exiting that quarry/base
Loading between entering and exiting would not form part of any journey
That’s how I remember being told how it is defined
Ader1:
I’ve been doing some work taking stones from a quarry. I delivered these stones and got back to the quarry with literally a couple of minutes to spare it short of 4.5 hours. I told this guy who is a kind of manager there and he said to just take the tacho card out and get the lorry loaded ready for a delivery in the morning. Is this a common occurenece? Couldn’t the company get into trouble doing this because the movement is still being recorded? Could I get into trouble?
This is also a theory and reality thing… as who the heck would know!
Bottom line - if you are off the road and not going out again the same shift, and the truck isn’t moving very much, all will be ok as no one will know any different anyway.
VOSA do check for “missing miles”, but for them to get interested I’m sure they would need to see a reasonable number of miles missing.Trucks do move about within yards without cards in for legitimate reasons e.g. by fitters.
Sure you can argue that driver might be technically due a 45 minute rest. But what is ultimately less fatiguing, 45 minute break, then load, then get home, OR load and get home?
Getting tin-hat ready!
Ader1:
tachograph:
Ader1:
This is in fact Agency work for me. Don’t really like it as you just get told where you lorry is and where to goDo you drive the same lorry everyday ?
Or to put it another way, the next morning will you be delivering the load that you loaded before finishing work the previous evening.
I thought I was going to be delivering it the next day but they told me that I wasn’t needed. However, I’ve just received a call saying they want me again tomorrow on another lorry apparently owned by another firm but I’ll still be working for the original company I was employed for through the agency. Not sure what that’s about. So tomorrow will probable be a struggel again not knowing the lorry and the gears etc. I’m not liking this agency lark.
I don’t feel as if my original question has been resolved. Even ‘seasnoned’ drivers are disagrreing. Help!
Firstly don’t worry about the company getting into trouble it’s not your problem, just try to keep yourself out of trouble 
Your original question is indeed unresolved and to be honest I’m not even sure that there is a definitive answer, as I see it if you had delivered the load the next day the loading in the evening could have been seen as part of a journey that goes onto public roads and therefore the driving on the quarry would be in-scope of EU regulations.
The fact that you didn’t deliver the load is almost irrelevant because at the time of loading you thought you would be delivering it, so to have put the tachograph on out of scope could be seen as trying to make a false record, and taking the card out altogether is never going to be legal unless you later do a manual entry to record the work.
A few things spring to mind about your situation:
-
You won’t get into trouble for taking your card out the other night because you would literally have to walk into a DVSA office and tell them what you’ve done, so don’t worry about that
-
If there’s ever a dispute about the hours an agency driver works, unless a time-sheet has been signed some companies will only pay the agency for what’s shown on the drivers card, so unless you get time-sheets signed use your driver card always.
Well you should use the driver card anyway but I’m sure you know what I mean -
The best option the other night would have been to leave the card in and have a 45 minute break if necessary, if it means having a second break you should be paid for it anyway.
-
A company that tells you to eject the card then carry on working is not a company you want to be working for, don’t shoot yourself in the foot by refusing to work for them, but look for alternative work as soon as you can.
Many trucks have some mileage which does not get recorded onto a drivers tacho
Take drivers who enter their yard then remove tacho then do some sort of other work for 30 mins before going home or taking over another vehicle
Whilst there is no tacho in the vehicle an internal shunter - perhaps a warehouse person who is authorised to move LGVs - moves it around the yard for various reasons
As long as a driver makes manual entries for any missing shift time when the tacho is not recording then all is legal
th2013:
Ader1:
I’ve been doing some work taking stones from a quarry. I delivered these stones and got back to the quarry with literally a couple of minutes to spare it short of 4.5 hours. I told this guy who is a kind of manager there and he said to just take the tacho card out and get the lorry loaded ready for a delivery in the morning. Is this a common occurenece? Couldn’t the company get into trouble doing this because the movement is still being recorded? Could I get into trouble?This is also a theory and reality thing… as who the heck would know!
Bottom line - if you are off the road and not going out again the same shift, and the truck isn’t moving very much, all will be ok as no one will know any different anyway.
VOSA do check for “missing miles”, but for them to get interested I’m sure they would need to see a reasonable number of miles missing.Trucks do move about within yards without cards in for legitimate reasons e.g. by fitters.Sure you can argue that driver might be technically due a 45 minute rest. But what is ultimately less fatiguing, 45 minute break, then load, then get home, OR load and get home?
Getting tin-hat ready!
No tin hat needed as far as I’m concerned, on the whole I agree with you, but by either taking the card out or using out-of scope rather than having a break that you’re required to have and probably going to get paid for anyway, your breaking the law in a way that’s going to cost you money and also encouraging the company to expect other agency drivers to do the same.
If you’re going to break the law do it for your benefit not just at your expense
ROG:
From the DVSA/VOSA guide GV262-03 …Note: Driving time includes any off-road parts of a journey where the rest of that journey is made on
the public highway.It is the definition of the word JOURNEY which is key
There could be many journeys made during a shift
A journey seems to be deemed as starting and finishing at base
If the base is a quarry then one journey finishes on entering that quarry/base and another journey starts on exiting that quarry/base
Loading between entering and exiting would not form part of any journeyThat’s how I remember being told how it is defined
I’ve no idea what geebee45 told you but I can guarantee he wouldn’t have told you that, that changed with the new regulations in 2007.
Page 10 GV262 as already quoted by LGVTrainer
Note: Driving time includes any off-road parts of a journey where the rest of that journey is made on
the public highway. Journeys taking place entirely off road would be considered as ‘other work’.So, for example, any time spent driving off road between a parking/rest area and a passenger-loading
area prior to travelling out onto a public road would constitute driving time. But it would be regarded
as other work where all the passengers were picked up and dropped off on the same off-road site.
When loading a vehicle off-road for a journey that goes onto public roads, any off-road driving that takes place while loading counts as driving time for EU regulations.
When does the journey start?
Before leaving base or not?
ROG:
When does the journey start?Before leaving base or not?
When the journey starts is an irrelevant question.
We’ve known for years that any off-road driving that is part of a journey that goes onto public roads is in-scope and counts towards the driving time.
I think what ROG is trying to say is that the definition of journey comes into it because if you start away from base, get back to base, do some other duties, then go back and move that same truck, is that a new “journey” or a continuation of the original one. Hence out of scope, or in scope.
Obviously if you load up then go out on public roads, it is clear cut.
There must be a legal definition of “journey” somewhere for the regs…
I’ve decided the simplest thing for the OP to do is to make damned sure he doesn’t make it back right on his hours next time, and take the break before he gets in!!
tachograph:
ROG:
When does the journey start?Before leaving base or not?
When the journey starts is an irrelevant question.
We’ve known for years that any off-road driving that is part of a journey that goes onto public roads is in-scope and counts towards the driving time.
What is the definition of a journey?
A journey has a beginning and an end and needs to be specified so that is why the definition is so important