A few questions

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
1

Does anyone know whether planners can plan my day for over 13hrs?
Where would I find it written down so I could quote it to my Gaffer when getting pushed?
Have been told they can’t, what the law says?
The other question is about rear lights.
On our trailers thee are always three light bulbs that need to be alight when all is in order.
What about if on one side one of the lightbulbs is off, what would VOSA be saying if they stopped me?
And one more. If one of the unit’s front market lights, or headlights not as bright as the other one, what would VOSA be saying if they stopped me? What I get finned?

Thanks

2

The planners can plan you for a 108 hour shift, and hope for a miracle, and have you actually complete it all in under 15 hours.

“plans” are just that. They are not necessarily realistic or do-able, but they don’t ned to be. All you need to know I that you have a limit on the number of hours you can actually work in a day.

As for the lights issue, if it would fail an MOT then it shouldn’t be on the road and you are risking a fine. But you knew that :wink:

3

Question 1, yes, your planner can plan you over 13 hours. There’s no law against it, however there may be something in your contract about your hours you can use.

Q2, as long as you have at least one marker light working both sides, plus both brake lights and both indicators, it should be little more than a raised eyebrow. If you’re worried, a screwdriver and spare bulb are all you need to rectify.

Q3, as long as both lights are working then there’s no problem. I’m not sure if there’s a standard of brightness for mot, but that isn’t your problem

4

They can plan you for over 13 hours did you hear some RDC bs.The only time they cant is if you have used all of your reduced daily rests.

5

One lamp significantly dimmer then its opposite hand of a pair would/could be an MOT failure. On the road what action taken would depend upon the time of day, weather conditions and which side of the vehicle is affected. The lamps most likely to be attributable to driver negligence would be a trailer lower front marker light obscured by the curtain or tarpaulin or a side marker light obscured by lashings.

6

Thanks chaps for your replies.
I’ve heard somewhere, well, actually from a couple of sources, planners should be planning your daily work for up to 13hrs including breaks, and you can work up to 15hrs at your own discretion, basically if it suits you not them.
I know of one fella, who refused to do a job as he knew it would take him over 13hrs and his gaffer/planner had to send someone else as he knew he wouldn’t be able to push this fella as he would be doing it against some regulation.
There must be something about it in some rules and regulations otherwise the driver in question wouldn’t be able to refuse just like this, but he clearly knew what he was talking about.
Maybe Tachograph could clarify it, if he’s around.

7

All planners and companies vary, a decent planner will give you a doable workload but transport is a very fluid environment, things change. A decent driver will keep his planner updated regularly so if a cockups on the cards things can be changed earlier as more options will be available.

My planner knows I like at least 10 hours off but working together sometimes ill just have a 9 and next day get a 12 off. Its a balance really communication is key and working together makes the job a doddle. If I say I cant do it then theres no arguing.

That said come 13 hours I better be on the way to park up or the dummies coming out big time… :wink:

Edit: Hmmm reading this back I come across like a right yes man and planners ■■■■■■■■■, heyho it works for me.

8

anon84679660:
Does anyone know whether planners can plan my day for over 13hrs?
Where would I find it written down so I could quote it to my Gaffer when getting pushed?

Beyond strict compliance with EU driver’s hours rules, your employer also has a general duty not organise work in such a manner as to cause excessive fatigue.

What will cause fatigue will differ between drivers and circumstances, but in general it is not appropriate to plan a 15 hour shift for a day driver - that will necessarily leave the majority of people without adequate time to sleep.

Even for a tramper, it represents the bare minimum which cannot be reduced further under any circumstances.

If you want an opening gambit to challenge your employer, simply ask for a written statement of what plan has been made for your rest and recuperation. If they haven’t made such a plan (the likeliest response), then they are already breaking the law, because they must consider fatigue and provision for rest in their plans.

I suspect though you want an answer that doesn’t involve you putting your foot down and insisting on the rest you need, and unfortunately no such law exists.

9

anon84679660:
Thanks chaps for your replies.
I’ve heard somewhere, well, actually from a couple of sources, planners should be planning your daily work for up to 13hrs including breaks, and you can work up to 15hrs at your own discretion, basically if it suits you not them.

That is the case with employers who have taken the view that any more than 13 hours is liable to cause excessive fatigue.

Your employer doesn’t necessarily need to take the same view (he may believe he employs only Stakhanovites who need only 6 hours a night), and the only person who can say otherwise is you (or your union).

10

There’s nothing in any official body rules that says you can only be planned for 13 hours, or the so called drivers discretion myth

11

anon84679660:
I know of one fella, who refused to do a job as he knew it would take him over 13hrs and his gaffer/planner had to send someone else as he knew he wouldn’t be able to push this fella as he would be doing it against some regulation.
There must be something about it in some rules and regulations otherwise the driver in question wouldn’t be able to refuse just like this, but he clearly knew what he was talking about.

Not against regulation the planner just didn’t want to put up with his crying, but now this fella tells everyone near him about the day he said no to a 13+hr run.

12

anon84679660:
Thanks chaps for your replies.
I’ve heard somewhere, well, actually from a couple of sources, planners should be planning your daily work for up to 13hrs including breaks, and you can work up to 15hrs at your own discretion, basically if it suits you not them.
I know of one fella, who refused to do a job as he knew it would take him over 13hrs and his gaffer/planner had to send someone else as he knew he wouldn’t be able to push this fella as he would be doing it against some regulation.
There must be something about it in some rules and regulations otherwise the driver in question wouldn’t be able to refuse just like this, but he clearly knew what he was talking about.
Maybe Tachograph could clarify it, if he’s around.

I heard from a couple of different sources, that there is a mystery man who helped build this world in 7 days. Another couple told me Santa was real.

Doesn’t mean any of them are right though :unamused:

If you don’t want to work 15 hours, then don’t work at a firm that regularly does 15 hour shifts. Or have a word with your planner and see if you can come to a compromise. It really is that simple.

13

OVLOV JAY:
There’s nothing in any official body rules that says you can only be planned for 13 hours, or the so called drivers discretion myth

No, but you can refuse (or abridge) a plan which in your reasonable view will lead to excessive fatigue, and an employer would be on very shaky grounds to dispute that. It is one thing for employers to plead ignorance, it is another for them to openly insist on unsafe working (or retaliate against a refusal to do so).

That is why many large and reputable employers accept the 13 hour rule (which only the driver can override by assessing his own fatigue and deciding freely whether to proceed further), because it represents the legal opinion they have had on the general threshold of excessive fatigue and acceptable risks.

The EU regulations themselves also view 11 hours rest as being the normal requirement - the fact that it can be reduced doesn’t mean it is necessarily appropriate to do so, or that no other laws apply to the question of working hours. A tramper on 4-on-4-off working sociable hours and with plenty of time to recuperate during the day, would be in a totally league of fatigue to a day driver working night shifts and doing hard graft working (15h x 3) + (13h x 3).

For example, bringing a driver in at 8am for 4 hours until 12pm, giving them 9 off until 9pm, and then working them for 15 hours until 12pm the following day is compliant with the EU drivers’ hours rules, but it is unlikely to be measured as safe according to any fatigue management principles, and the employer would breach H&S law (or other laws like the causing and permitting variants of the standard motoring offences) by operating in this fashion.

The only chance employers have to get away with it is that these requirements are not to my knowledge enforced proactively by the DVSA, but are likely to be enforced by other agencies (like the police or the HSE) either in reaction to a complaint or to a road incident.

14

Rjan:

OVLOV JAY:
There’s nothing in any official body rules that says you can only be planned for 13 hours, or the so called drivers discretion myth

No, but you can refuse (or abridge) a plan which in your reasonable view will lead to excessive fatigue, and an employer would be on very shaky grounds to dispute that. It is one thing for employers to plead ignorance, it is another for them to openly insist on unsafe working (or retaliate against a refusal to do so).

That is why many large and reputable employers accept the 13 hour rule (which only the driver can override by assessing his own fatigue and deciding freely whether to proceed further), because it represents the legal opinion they have had on the general threshold of excessive fatigue and acceptable risks.

The EU regulations themselves also view 11 hours rest as being the normal requirement - the fact that it can be reduced doesn’t mean it is necessarily appropriate to do so, or that no other laws apply to the question of working hours. A tramper on 4-on-4-off working sociable hours and with plenty of time to recuperate during the day, would be in a totally league of fatigue to a day driver working night shifts and doing hard graft working (15h x 3) + (13h x 3).

For example, bringing a driver in at 8am for 4 hours until 12pm, giving them 9 off until 9pm, and then working them for 15 hours until 12pm the following day is compliant with the EU drivers’ hours rules, but it is unlikely to be measured as safe according to any fatigue management principles, and the employer would breach H&S law (or other laws like the causing and permitting variants of the standard motoring offences) by operating in this fashion.

The only chance employers have to get away with it is that these requirements are not to my knowledge enforced proactively by the DVSA, but are likely to be enforced by other agencies (like the police or the HSE) either in reaction to a complaint or to a road incident.

Utter tosh, the planner can give you 3 15’s in a row, there is nothing anywhere stated, written or even implied that tells them that they can’t plan you just because you are a crybaby and can’t do 15 hours.

You are in the wrong job kiddo.

Ship up or ship out.

Plenty that will take over from you, you hear that woosh? that 's the queue trying to beat you to the door while you limp out.

Fatigue management, H&S laws, you have definitely been hanging out in too many RDC’s with too much time on your hand, time to plan you for a few hundred hour weeks to bring you down a peg or four.

15

wheelnutt:
Utter tosh, the planner can give you 3 15’s in a row, there is nothing anywhere stated, written or even implied that tells them that they can’t plan you just because you are a crybaby and can’t do 15 hours.

No, you’ve completely misunderstood the law. It does say that if you cannot do 15 hours, then you must not be planned to do so.

To reiterate the examples which come to mind, a planner (or anyone else in the organisation responsible) could be prosecuted for causing or permitting careless or dangerous driving. The operator’s managers could be prosecuted for corporate manslaughter if a tired driver causes a death.

And the HSE could prosecute if an operator fails to take reasonably practicable steps to ensure the health, safety, and welfare of employees. I forget the name, but there is an old case which established that recognised good practice in an industry is always “reasonably practicable” - the 13 hour planning rule, for example, is a recognised good practice.

And before we even talk about human factors, simple arithmetic will show that a day driver can’t possibly be presumed to get enough rest if he has to go home with just 9 hours rest between shifts.

You are in the wrong job kiddo.

Ship up or ship out.

Or perhaps certain businesses haven’t woken up to the real world, where there are rules to prevent them doing anything (whether specifically proscribed or not) that would cause a driver to drive under excessive fatigue.

As I say, 9 hours rest between shifts is a different proposition to a tramper who sleeps in the vehicle, than a day driver who travels home between each shift (both of which the EU drivers’ hours rules would accommodate, but only one of which the law as a whole will accommodate).

A person doing 15 hours but working one day a week (so he starts fresh and ends with a long rest), would also be far more bearable than 3x15 hour shifts back to back plus 3x13 hour shifts.

Plenty that will take over from you, you hear that woosh? that 's the queue trying to beat you to the door while you limp out.

I’ll bet. If you can find a day-driving workforce who can do those hours without fatigue, then you buy 'em.

Fatigue management, H&S laws, you have definitely been hanging out in too many RDC’s with too much time on your hand, time to plan you for a few hundred hour weeks to bring you down a peg or four.

Unfortunately for you, that is the law. The operator must not cause excessive fatigue, regardless of whether their proposal is otherwise compliant with the EU drivers’ hours rules.

And whilst a smaller operator may get away with saying he relies on the drivers to feed back about fatigue issues, once it has been fed back then he has to do something about it.

16

Wheelnutt - I’ve gone and found something just for you:

hse.gov.uk/humanfactors/topics/fatigue.htm

17

Hi Roman
Thanks a lot for replying.
I knew there was something to it as the gaffer I know would not have accepted such a “nonsense” as a driver, especialy someone who he wasn’t on good terms with, telling him, he could not plan him for working over 13hrs, and the driver simply refusing to work over 13hrs, and then the gaffer making sure no other driver found out about it, so other drivers do not realise they have legal right to refuse to work over 13hrs.
Unfortunately anyone frequenting tis forum doesn’t need much time to realise this forum is infested with cowboy operators sure h as wheel nut and others, trying their hardest to keep drivers frequenting this forum from learning the law that is there to protect them from causing harm to themselves and other road users.
Now, since you have provided some proper reasoning behind it, wheelnut won’t be able to push his drivers to max their hours everyday, once they read this thread,.
The only way wheel nut and operators such as I’m as able to win contracts is they pay minimum wage, force their drivers to max their hours every week, and companies that want to treat their drivers right and offer them humane working conditions are not able to compete with price under cutters such as wheelnut.

18

Rjan - have any transport operators been prosecuted using the guidance you have just posted a link to? Specifically, where the company was already compliant with both the WTD and EU drivers hours rules, and it was only these guidelines being broken?

19

F-reds:
I heard from a couple of different sources, that there is a mystery man who helped build this world in 7 days. Another couple told me Santa was real.

Doesn’t mean any of them are right though :unamused:

If you don’t want to work 15 hours, then don’t work at a firm that regularly does 15 hour shifts. Or have a word with your planner and see if you can come to a compromise. It really is that simple.

FFS F-reds every one knows that even my kids did from a very early age. :wink: :laughing: :laughing:

The 13 + hour planned day can be dependant on the work. A day of multi drop hand ball would, I contend, be unreasonable. However a 4 hour drive followed by a 1 hour tip at a customer, followed buy another 1 hour drive to collect from a supplier who takes 3 hours to load before a 3 1/2 hour drive back to base is not, I would contend unreasonable. Not forgetting the walk around checks and debrief and you will be over 13 and that’s before sods law has it’s say.

20

It’ll depend who you work for fella. My lot can’t plan for anything over our basic shift length without asking in advance. This attitude taken by many employers where’ You’re here til we tell you it’s finishing time’ is a mugs game.