A few questions

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
21

anon84679660:
Hi Roman
Thanks a lot for replying.
I knew there was something to it as the gaffer I know would not have accepted such a “nonsense” as a driver, especialy someone who he wasn’t on good terms with, telling him, he could not plan him for working over 13hrs, and the driver simply refusing to work over 13hrs, and then the gaffer making sure no other driver found out about it, so other drivers do not realise they have legal right to refuse to work over 13hrs.

It’s a little bit more subtle than that, though. It’s not that you have a right to refuse anything over 13 hours - it’s that you have a right to refuse anything which causes (or will cause) excessive fatigue.

Whilst that general rule is indisputable, there is the potential for dispute around the application of it to any specific situation (such as how many hours, or how little rest between shifts, will cause excessive fatigue for a particular driver in a particular firm doing a particular kind of work).

But I would think there is no dispute that 9 hours rest between 15 hour shifts is not sufficient for a day driver in the typical case, and certainly not as a rule or a standing assumption for a firm.

Unfortunately anyone frequenting tis forum doesn’t need much time to realise this forum is infested with cowboy operators sure h as wheel nut and others, trying their hardest to keep drivers frequenting this forum from learning the law that is there to protect them from causing harm to themselves and other road users.
Now, since you have provided some proper reasoning behind it, wheelnut won’t be able to push his drivers to max their hours everyday, once they read this thread,.
The only way wheel nut and operators such as I’m as able to win contracts is they pay minimum wage, force their drivers to max their hours every week, and companies that want to treat their drivers right and offer them humane working conditions are not able to compete with price under cutters such as wheelnut.

Indeed, but as I say he’s got a chance yet simply because there is a cadre of drivers who will not say no, and as long as there are enough of them to go around for the small cowboy operators, then there’s no one else who speaks his language to tell him otherwise (unless something bad actually happens).

For larger operators, the calculations tend to be made differently.

22

OVLOV JAY:
There’s nothing in any official body rules that says you can only be planned for 13 hours, or the so called drivers discretion myth

Myth■■?
Someone can’t read worded Regulations.

Throughout (sorry copy and paste, can’t be ar**d to write them all out) REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006; REGULATION (EC) No 1073/2009 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 21 October 2009; REGULATION (EU) No 165/2014 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 4 February 2014; Directive 2002/15/EC and all the superseded regs the words " Where a driver chooses to do this" appear very frequently, especially around the words reduced rest, increased working time etc
“where a driver chooses to do this” is the same as “drivers discretion” (those 2 words don’t I think appear anywhere in the regs.)

eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/ … 32002L0015
eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/ … 1-20150302

This is the EU and our governments get out clause for when you become medically unfit through tiredness or worse still, crash after being in work for 13 hrs.
Their argument
“Your fault you are tired. You chose to take a reduced rest period/ extend your work hours.”
Your bosses attitude when you run out of WTD hrs- “tough ■■■■ you’re unpaid for 2 weeks. You did all those 15 hr shifts trying to coin it.”
Catch -22. Damned if you do/ damned if you don’t.
Corporate manslaughter laws (God forbid nobody ever encounters them) and H&S regs for endangering life/ safety/ Duty of Care can also be used against you, your planner and the company directors.

One quick question. And one I know the answer to (2nd one is yes!) :smiley:
If everyone actually stuck to parking up at about 12hrs 30 to 55 in work, do you think bosses and our government would finally get around to making more parking facilities available?
Or am I just still a little to optimistic? Still not cynical enough after nearly 33years. Guess it’s too late to change now

Also you’d be working about an extra 4 hrs on your 5th/ 6th card if you kept to the 13hrs, as your trucks work load for the week would be behind. Time and a bit- swings and roundabouts really
Your planners only care about the job being done, as cheaply and as quickly as possible. Certain firms out there are planning 5* 15hr days for a driver, just because 1 planner has taken over from another after 3 days of your shift and he/she thinks that they haven’t used your hours yet. Even when you explain it to them, they still don’t get it.
Really good planners and there are many about, do actually care about their drivers welfare as well and will try and plan for 12hr job times, allowing you an hr to find parking/ for hold ups etc. They also factor your break time into the total job time, i.e no more than 12 hr working days.

23

Hi Rijan
Sorry for calling you Roman previously, my smartphone changes spelling of any word it wishes to, if you don’t double check.
Another thing that many drivers are not aware of is that no company can force you to work more than 1248 hrs in a 26 week reference period, they need to include in this your holiday by Adding 48hrs for every week of holidays, 8hrs per day for every sick day off, 8hrs for every bank holiday you are off.
These hours need to be added manually to all your hours, and every driver needs to check it and many if not most companies don’t want you to know about it, and will be refusing to make these adjustments to your overall worked hours.
drivers bulying is rife in haulage, as the more a driver knows the less room there is to exploit him and then if there is a major investigation, by the authorities (VOSA, police) the driver is being blamed for not informing the the authorities.
No wonder so many qualified drivers refuse to work in this dodgy industry.

24

F-reds:
Rjan - have any transport operators been prosecuted using the guidance you have just posted a link to? Specifically, where the company was already compliant with both the WTD and EU drivers hours rules, and it was only these guidelines being broken?

I wouldn’t know. I suspect in the cases of the larger operators, it doesn’t get to the stage of prosecution - they have competent internal advice, they have pressure from larger and more diverse workforces (large operators can’t expect to survive by cherry-picking only those who will do 15 hour shifts for all their life), and if both those fail and the authorities become aware that there’s a problem, then enforcement agencies are likely to put them on gypsy’s warning first.

I’m not aware of any larger operator who has an open policy of planning for a sequence of 15 hour shifts.

And as I hinted, smaller operators have a chance simply because the main enforcer for them is going to be the driver - and the two are likely to find some mutual understanding about the terms on which work is done or else will part company. And unless a driver is willing to say he is fatigued and is being forced to work anyway, then an operator cannot be prosecuted - because the operator can say he relies on the driver to report fatigue, and if the driver says he’s fine then there’s no problem (unless it can be proved that the driver is fatigued despite his own words to the contrary - which is only likely to occur in an accident).

Also, note that the HSE publish guidelines for how the law is applied - the law itself is not guidance (I think some other posters were under the impression there was simply no other law besides the EU rules which could bear on their planning of work).

25

Dewi1jack:

OVLOV JAY:
There’s nothing in any official body rules that says you can only be planned for 13 hours, or the so called drivers discretion myth

Myth■■?
Someone can’t read worded Regulations.

Throughout (sorry copy and paste, can’t be ar**d to write them all out) REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006; REGULATION (EC) No 1073/2009 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 21 October 2009; REGULATION (EU) No 165/2014 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 4 February 2014; Directive 2002/15/EC and all the superseded regs the words " Where a driver chooses to do this" appear very frequently, especially around the words reduced rest, increased working time etc
“where a driver chooses to do this” is the same as “drivers discretion” (those 2 words don’t I think appear anywhere in the regs.)

eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/ … 32002L0015
eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/ … 1-20150302

This is the EU and our governments get out clause for when you become medically unfit through tiredness or worse still, crash after being in work for 13 hrs.
Their argument
“Your fault you are tired. You chose to take a reduced rest period/ extend your work hours.”
Your bosses attitude when you run out of WTD hrs- “tough [zb] you’re unpaid for 2 weeks. You did all those 15 hr shifts trying to coin it.”
Catch -22. Damned if you do/ damned if you don’t.
Corporate manslaughter laws (God forbid nobody ever encounters them) and H&S regs for endangering life/ safety/ Duty of Care can also be used against you, your planner and the company directors.

One quick question. And one I know the answer to (2nd one is yes!) :smiley:
If everyone actually stuck to parking up at about 12hrs 30 to 55 in work, do you think bosses and our government would finally get around to making more parking facilities available?
Or am I just still a little to optimistic? Still not cynical enough after nearly 33years. Guess it’s too late to change now

Also you’d be working about an extra 4 hrs on your 5th/ 6th card if you kept to the 13hrs, as your trucks work load for the week would be behind. Time and a bit- swings and roundabouts really
Your planners only care about the job being done, as cheaply and as quickly as possible. Certain firms out there are planning 5* 15hr days for a driver, just because 1 planner has taken over from another after 3 days of your shift and he/she thinks that they haven’t used your hours yet. Even when you explain it to them, they still don’t get it.
Really good planners and there are many about, do actually care about their drivers welfare as well and will try and plan for 12hr job times, allowing you an hr to find parking/ for hold ups etc. They also factor your break time into the total job time, i.e no more than 12 hr working days.

I think you’re getting confused. Link one is for the wtd, of which you can work 24 hours a day, as long as you comply with compulsory breaks and don’t exceed 60 hrs working time a week. The second link however, is about European driving hours, and makes no mention in article 8 about if a driver chooses. Just states the obvious that if you don’t have 11, it’s a reduced rest. Hth

26

Maybe I can simplify things here. :bulb:

■■■■ all the rules/sections/subsections/chapter verse and absolute fiction.
If you are tired after 13 hours…PARK UP :bulb:

Inform them after 12.5 you are parking up due to fatigue, if they get arsey tell them to text you (so you have a record) to carry on even though you have told them. …they will not! , trust me.

Nobody can force you to work when tired…end of.
Take no notice of the Bigbollock trucking heroes :unamused: who will take the ■■■■, spouting crap like ‘I could do a 15 every day me, with an hours kip’ or ‘If you aint prepared to go like a ■■■■, like me mate, you are in the wrong job’’ let them crack on with it .
In the past I have regularly maxed out, been weekended abroad and all the rest of the ■■■■■■■■ t.shirt AND sweatshirt hoodie. .believe me.
So if our heroes come back and tell ME I’m in the wrong job, bring it on, din’t give a ■■■■, but the real reason is got more ■■■■ sense now, there is more to life than running like a demented ■■■■ !! :bulb:

Today, I do 15s when it suits ME, or if I am ASKED, but not pressurised.
If it was up to me we should be going back to 12.5 hr days max, a lot of you will not remember, but when the 15 law came out a lot of firms stopped the time and a half over 40, so we gained absolutely ■■■■ all, but had to work longer basically for less money.

27

Tell you what rjan, pm user “dozy”, he works for the much maligned green machine, ask him what he gets planned for on a regular week, I’d have a Pepsi Bet with you it would be more than 5x12hour shifts. If you think large operators don’t plan outside those guidelines, I’d say you were delusional. :laughing:

I agree some don’t. There are some fantastic T&Cs out there, but I’m willing to be you another Pepsi, that they are written into the contracts. Not just taken as writ by some HSE guidelines.

FWIW I agree with Chief ■■■■■, I work longer shifts, but only when the work is there, and when I’m not a dead man walking. Generally 11 on with 13 off suits me, financially and family, but I do probably once or twice a week go longer, especially in peak season. But I have a cracking boss, who I can actually talk to if I had a problem with the workload, but I understand that is increasingly rare.

I stand by what I said. The OP needs to either not work for a company planning regular 15’s, or talk to boss about it, like an adult, because he clearly isn’t going to see anything in black and white like he craves - you yourself have already said “its not that simple…” He is clearly after GV262 type document, but it obviously doesn’t work that way…

28

I phoned the T. O earlier to find out what I’m doing tomorrow, they duly told me and I informed them that I was parking at Melton Mowbray (20 mins from the yard) on 12 and a half hours. After being told that I could get back to the yard I agreed I could but I’m not as I don’t do reduced breaks when back at base, they then asked me if I would do it on this occasion to which I replied I’d happily take 9 hours off at base on the condition that they too took 9 hours off and came back in at 3am.

I’m in Melton! :wink:

29

So, the OP asked if his planner could plan him for a 15 hour day.

I’ve read the links provided and nowhere does it say that it is illegal for his planner to plan him a 15 hour day

… or am I missing something ?

30

The o/p uses the term ‘When being pushed’
That is another aspect, if you work for a co that treats you both with respect and as a grown up, you tend to be more co.operative and willing to help out.
I worked for such a firm in Colchester for 10 yrs, I was the model employee …because of the way I was treated by them :bulb: , and regularly went that extra mile as I knew I would be looked after for it.
If I worked for those dicks that ■■■■ dozy about, and push him to and beyond the limits I would be a complete awkward and uncooperative arse.
The firm I work for today I am a combination of the two :smiley: …depending on how much they try and ■■■■ me about.

I would have done the same as Maoster for instance today, but in the other firm they would have been reasonable enough to pay me a night out for 9 off in the yard.

This is the sort of stuff that makes ALL the difference, and a lot of firms can not, or refuse to see this, but prefer to take the ■■■■ and treat you like a ■■■■ in varying degrees.

31

Smiffski:
So, the OP asked if it was illegal for his planner to plan him a 15 hour day.

I’ve read the links provided and nowhere does it say that it is illegal for his planner to plan him a 15 hour day

… or am I missing something ?

No you’re not. It’s not illegal, the question of whether it’s fair is a different matter. I’m with rob on this one. If you want to do 15 everyday, and many do, and are paid up members of the 9:01 club, then crack on. I spent the first few years observing this industry, and looking at some of the crippled old boys shuffling along trying to survive, I deduced long hours and back breaking graft are just that. I’m quite happy being a box jockey, and lucky enough to work for a company that does leave 15’s to a drivers discretion. Although there’s no requirement for them to do so

32

F-reds:
Tell you what rjan, pm user “dozy”, he works for the much maligned green machine, ask him what he gets planned for on a regular week, I’d have a Pepsi Bet with you it would be more than 5x12hour shifts. If you think large operators don’t plan outside those guidelines, I’d say you were delusional. :laughing:

I said I’m not aware of any with an open policy of doing so. What is done locally with the connivance of the workforce, or imposed by hard-faced planners, or caused by “delays” is another question altogether.

And even Stobarts won’t argue with you if you need to park up and go to sleep.

33

OVLOV JAY:

Smiffski:
So, the OP asked if it was illegal for his planner to plan him a 15 hour day.

I’ve read the links provided and nowhere does it say that it is illegal for his planner to plan him a 15 hour day

… or am I missing something ?

No you’re not. It’s not illegal, the question of whether it’s fair is a different matter. I’m with rob on this one. If you want to do 15 everyday, and many do, and are paid up members of the 9:01 club, then crack on. I spent the first few years observing this industry, and looking at some of the crippled old boys shuffling along trying to survive, I deduced long hours and back breaking graft are just that. I’m quite happy being a box jockey, and lucky enough to work for a company that does leave 15’s to a drivers discretion. Although there’s no requirement for them to do so

I’m with you on that one, I’m down to 4 days a week and looking at cutting it to 3.

The point remains though that there is nothing wrong or illegal for his planner to plan him a 15 hour day

Whether it is advisable to plan for a 15 hour day, or advisable for him to work them is a different question entirely (and not the one the OP asked)

34

Smiffski:
The point remains though that there is nothing wrong or illegal for his planner to plan him a 15 hour day

There is nothing illegal for the planner to plan a 20 hour day either, if to “plan” means to merely conceive on paper. But if there is any compulsion for a driver to follow a plan which causes excessive fatigue (or continue following a plan which has caused excessive fatigue), then it does become illegal - the same as if there is compulsion to follow a plan which exceeds the EU drivers’ hours rules.

And as I’ve said, in the case of a day driver, there is almost no chance of the employer having reasonable grounds to insist on 15 hour days with only 9 hours rest between them. It’s just self-evidently an insufficient period of rest which won’t leave enough time for a night’s sleep. In the untypical case, it would be for the employer to show how normal commuting, sleep and bodily maintenance is being fitted in fully to such a short period of time.

I know from personal experience that even under conditions that are ideal, a 15 hour day on day-driving is just too ■■■■ long! I’d never return the following day for a full shift after 15 hours the previous day and just 9 hours off - I might have done it naively in the distant past, which is why I know today that the proposal is absurd.

As I keep repeating, the EU drivers’ hours rules are not the only laws that apply to the scheduling of work, and in establishing the lawfulness of that scheduling it is not sufficient for an operator merely to show they have complied with the hours rules.

To reiterate, it is perfectly possible to come up with a schedule that complies with EU drivers’ hours rules but which is not lawful to operate because of its propensity to cause dangerously high fatigue.

The fact that some, even many operators are finding one way or another to drive under scheduling that doesn’t comply fully with the law is no different to how they get away with bald tyres, dodgy speed limiters, or fiddled tachos - no one seriously suggests these things are lawful (or even tacitly accepted by the authorities), just because most aren’t getting caught.

There have been cases of even large operators almost being shuttered when they have finally been caught flouting the law. In fact, just recently on here, someone reported that a Stobarts depot had been curtailed for flouting the EU drivers’ hours rules! If they’ll flout such a law that is crystal clear and enforced by terror, they’ll certainly try and flout any lesser-enforced, harder-to-enforce laws like those which outlaw excessive fatigue.

Whether it is advisable to plan for a 15 hour day, or advisable for him to work them is a different question entirely (and not the one the OP asked)

On what reasoning can it be acknowledged to be “inadvisable” but also “not illegal”? You seem to think that somehow an operator can make statements like ‘we did it against all good advice’ or ‘we knew the driver was dog-tired’, and yet there be no consequences simply because it complied with the EU drivers’ hours rules. Your feet won’t touch the floor if you adopt that approach in front of the TC (or any authority, really).

35

You seem to think that somehow an operator can make statements like ‘we did it against all good advice’ or ‘we knew the driver was dog-tired’, and yet there be no consequences simply because it complied with the EU drivers’ hours rules.

Absolute ■■■■■■■■ - Where have I even remotely said that ? Making up imaginary statements like that and then dismissing them doesn’t help prove a point, it just makes you look foolish

The OP asked whether his planner can plan him for a 15 hour day - the answer to his question is Yes he can.

Does the driver have to do a 15 hour day if he is too tired, of course not. He could also refuse a 12 hour day if he was too tired, doesn’t mean planning him for 12 hours was wrong.

Stating that it is illegal to plan a driver for a 15 hour day is just plain wrong. You and me may not like working 15 hour days but that doesn’t make it illegal.

36

Smiffski:

You seem to think that somehow an operator can make statements like ‘we did it against all good advice’ or ‘we knew the driver was dog-tired’, and yet there be no consequences simply because it complied with the EU drivers’ hours rules.

Absolute ■■■■■■■■ - Where have I even remotely said that ? Making up imaginary statements like that and then dismissing them doesn’t help prove a point, it just makes you look foolish

I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, I’m pointing out the contradiction in what you have said.

The operator can’t simultaneously hold that they are systematically scheduling work in a fashion that is “inadvisable” because of the risk of fatigue, and hold that it is lawful. Inadvisable risks which are arising systematically are never lawful.

The OP asked whether his planner can plan him for a 15 hour day - the answer to his question is Yes he can.

No, what the OP asked (perhaps by implication) was that, having put it to the planner that in the particular circumstances 9 hours rest is insufficient, can he still be compelled to carry out the plan? The answer to that is a definite no.

So too, if the OP simply finds it too tiring to carry out a 15 hour work day in a manner which is safe and healthy (no matter how much rest he has), can he be compelled? Again, the answer is no.

Of course, there is not necessarily any obligation on an employer to retain his services afterwards, which I think is also what the OP is asking (i.e. whether he has any security of employment if he can’t agree with his employer about working hours). The answer here is less decisively in the OP’s favour, unless he is already in secure employment with protection against unfair dismissal.

Does the driver have to do a 15 hour day if he is too tired, of course not. He could also refuse a 12 hour day if he was too tired, doesn’t mean planning him for 12 hours was wrong.

But the day driver with only 9 hours rest will never not be tired - never not deprived of sleep. That’s what makes this case more cut and dry.

Stating that it is illegal to plan a driver for a 15 hour day is just plain wrong. You and me may not like working 15 hour days but that doesn’t make it illegal.

There is a subtlety in what I’ve previously said which isn’t quite reflected here. I haven’t said a 15 hour shift is never lawful in any situation - otherwise it would be redundant for the EU rules to permit it at all. What I have said is that it isn’t lawful to make plans which cause excessive fatigue, and I stand by what I’ve said previously at more length.

37

So after all that we are in agreement :smiley:

When the OP asked …

Does anyone know whether planners can plan my day for over 13hrs?

The answer is Yes

Have been told they can’t, what the law says?

You’ve been told wrong, there is no law saying they can’t.

Where I said it may be inadvisable to plan a 15 hour day, I was referring to the fact that jobs dont often run exactly to plan so you aren’t leaving any wriggle room.

38

I agree with what most have said and the answer to the original question is YES…most drivers today are being told to work a 15, most employers insist on a 15 or at least give a driver a work load that would include a 15 hour day…BUT…most of us dont like these limits imposed upon us…but no one in the industry, except the drivers, are doing anything about it…so it looks like its gonna stay…my answer is fight back…refuse to work them, and tell them a 13 hr day is very reasonable…and even insist on an 11 hour break as well…some employers will tell you to find another job, some will be sacked as being unreasonable ( fatigue ) would be your defence in a court or tribunal…its your choice…work them or find another industry to work in…( i`m told Tesco shelf stackers earn better money than most drivers ) :smiley:

39

Here is a small part of an e-mail my boss sent me, and the rest our our small team of drivers. This is what I would call a responsible attitude to both the needs of the business and also the people employed within. It is to cover leave as our client contract comes to an end.

As you will see there are some 6 day shifts allocated. If anyone is unable to complete this or for some reason tiredness sets in. Please call me. We don’t expect miracles. if you need to remove a day, tell me in advance.

I will do what I can to replace you. I am not prepared to put anyone at risk so please speak up.

These aren’t days planned to go beyond 12 hours but as we all know life, traffic, breakdowns etc can mess with the best laid plans.

And just for information I will have 5 weeks with 6 shifts in them ALWAYS with full weekly rests (actually 60 hours).

40

truckyboy:
work them or find another industry to work in…( i`m told Tesco shelf stackers earn better money than most drivers ) :smiley:

There’s a ■■■■ lot of industries that earn better than drivers. Indeed, driving has become a “sweated trade” consisting greatly of amateurs and part-timers, like the ones referred to by Winston Churchill when he introduced wage councils.

But you don’t have to change industry - just refuse excessively long hours when they arise, and change jobs if the necessity for that arises.