£500 per week benifits

Carryfast:

limeyphil:

Wheel Nut:

pavaroti:

limeyphil:
there shouldn’t be any benefits whatsoever. the ecconomy would recover overnight.

+2

I wonder how many of these would think the same if it happened to them.

You are only 10’ away from that truck in front :smiling_imp:

i have been out of work a couple of times, it didn’t last long, as i got off my arse and knocked on some doors.
to be honest, it was more like having a few days off. but that’s because i’m a grafter, unlike so many of those [zb]ing low life scrubbers that do nothing but drain our society, then they have the cheek to starting [zb]ing breeding like bloody rabbits, which introduces a new batch of scum to our green and pleasant land.
we should have forced labour camps, and public hangings for obese women that wear leggings. i would say the reintroduction of the stocks would be a good idea, but the bloody tax payers havn’t got any bloody money left to pay for a rotten cabbage to throw at the dirty lazy scumbags.

Great idea.Check out the figures and you’ll find that in most cases human beings are financially unviable in that the wages they earn over a lifetime won’t cover the costs of their retirement, food requirements,housing,health care and social security requirements such as redundancy and sickness etc.So that menas sterilisation for every person in the country except zb bankers,MP’s and proffessional footballers. :open_mouth: :smiling_imp: :laughing:

Don’t sterilise them just saw their goolies off with a briar :wink: .

Dave the Renegade:

Carryfast:

limeyphil:

Wheel Nut:

pavaroti:

limeyphil:
there shouldn’t be any benefits whatsoever. the ecconomy would recover overnight.

+2

I wonder how many of these would think the same if it happened to them.

You are only 10’ away from that truck in front :smiling_imp:

i have been out of work a couple of times, it didn’t last long, as i got off my arse and knocked on some doors.
to be honest, it was more like having a few days off. but that’s because i’m a grafter, unlike so many of those [zb]ing low life scrubbers that do nothing but drain our society, then they have the cheek to starting [zb]ing breeding like bloody rabbits, which introduces a new batch of scum to our green and pleasant land.
we should have forced labour camps, and public hangings for obese women that wear leggings. i would say the reintroduction of the stocks would be a good idea, but the bloody tax payers havn’t got any bloody money left to pay for a rotten cabbage to throw at the dirty lazy scumbags.

Great idea.Check out the figures and you’ll find that in most cases human beings are financially unviable in that the wages they earn over a lifetime won’t cover the costs of their retirement, food requirements,housing,health care and social security requirements such as redundancy and sickness etc.So that menas sterilisation for every person in the country except zb bankers,MP’s and proffessional footballers. :open_mouth: :smiling_imp: :laughing:

Don’t sterilise them just saw their goolies off with a briar :wink: .

Typical British thinking Dave.It’s always the others/them.In this case it’s just as I said it’s ‘everyone’ who isn’t earning enough to support themselves without relying on the zb’d up commie idea of a so called social security system,children’s ‘allowances’,state pension,NHS and all the other commie ideas used by the government to subsidise employers who don’t want to pay enough for everyone to support themselves and cover their own needs.

In which case landylad will be at the front of the queue for termination of procreation abilities. :laughing: :laughing:

There will always be people that abuse the benefit system.There are a lot of genuine claimants of benefits out there.But as in everything there are people who know how to work the system and claim anything and everything.There are people who years ago would have got a job as a labourer on a farm or on a building site where they were supervised by their workmates,but these jobs no longer exist.
Nowadays there are very few jobs available to these people.The labouring/navvy jobs are no more its all done by machines.There is nowhere in the workplace for people who have no initiative and can’t work unsupervised on their own,so they end up on benefits.

Dave the Renegade:
There will always be people that abuse the benefit system.There are a lot of genuine claimants of benefits out there.But as in everything there are people who know how to work the system and claim anything and everything.There are people who years ago would have got a job as a labourer on a farm or on a building site where they were supervised by their workmates,but these jobs no longer exist.
Nowadays there are very few jobs available to these people.The labouring/navvy jobs are no more its all done by machines.There is nowhere in the workplace for people who have no initiative and can’t work unsupervised on their own,so they end up on benefits.

I think you’re just simplifying the issues and looking at the problem from the wrong angle just like all the British unions have done throughout history.

The so called social security system from cradle to grave and the zb NHS system in Britain is mainly just a form of enforced rationing and employment subsidy to make sure that employers don’t need to pay the type of wages needed to run a civilised developed economy.So they’ve just fallen back on a typically socialist zb system because it suits them.

The unions are too stupid to understand the issues and have gone along with it all because the stupid zb’s think that it’s all about socialism so it must be a good thing. :unamused:

They also had plenty of farm machinery in use in the states during the 1960’s but that didn’t stop the place being an industrial powerhouse with sufficient levels of employment to provide a decent wage for the population in general.The difference is that everyone,including the unions,bargained in those wages for a system of private insurance self sufficiency in financial provision for sickness,redundancy,pensions and health care.In which case you’d never hear the type of zb that landylad and most of the commie British public think about financial provision in the event of anyone needing to claim for any of those provisions because the clue is in the word ‘private’.Under that type of system it’s got absolutely zb all to do with landylad or anyone else.That’s the difference between a zb socialist commie country and a free one. :imp: :unamused:

Carryfast:

Dave the Renegade:
There will always be people that abuse the benefit system.There are a lot of genuine claimants of benefits out there.But as in everything there are people who know how to work the system and claim anything and everything.There are people who years ago would have got a job as a labourer on a farm or on a building site where they were supervised by their workmates,but these jobs no longer exist.
Nowadays there are very few jobs available to these people.The labouring/navvy jobs are no more its all done by machines.There is nowhere in the workplace for people who have no initiative and can’t work unsupervised on their own,so they end up on benefits.

I think you’re just simplifying the issues and looking at the problem from the wrong angle just like all the British unions have done throughout history.

The so called social security system from cradle to grave and the zb NHS system in Britain is mainly just a form of enforced rationing and employment subsidy to make sure that employers don’t need to pay the type of wages needed to run a civilised developed economy.So they’ve just fallen back on a typically socialist zb system because it suits them.

The unions are too stupid to understand the issues and have gone along with it all because the stupid zb’s think that it’s all about socialism so it must be a good thing. :unamused:

They also had plenty of farm machinery in use in the states during the 1960’s but that didn’t stop the place being an industrial powerhouse with sufficient levels of employment to provide a decent wage for the population in general.The difference is that everyone,including the unions,bargained in those wages for a system of private insurance self sufficiency in financial provision for sickness,redundancy,pensions and health care.In which case you’d never hear the type of zb that landylad and most of the commie British public think about financial provision in the event of anyone needing to claim for any of those provisions because the clue is in the word ‘private’.Under that type of system it’s got absolutely zb all to do with landylad or anyone else.That’s the difference between a zb socialist commie country and a free one. :imp: :unamused:

I’m not simplifying the issues at all Carryfast.I live in Mid Wales in a very rural area which is not and never will be like the States.Up until the 70’s a lot of labour was used on the Forestry Commission also on roadwork by the local authority who did all the road repairs.The farms don’t employ anyone other than the odd member of their own family with quite a few farmers doing contract work for others.The largest employers in this area are the quarries who are cutting down their workforce as the plant and machinery are getting bigger.There has been no union involvement in this area.As I said before the jobs for the people who haven’t got the IQ for certain jobs have no place in the job market in these areas.

Dave the Renegade:

Carryfast:

Dave the Renegade:
There will always be people that abuse the benefit system.There are a lot of genuine claimants of benefits out there.But as in everything there are people who know how to work the system and claim anything and everything.There are people who years ago would have got a job as a labourer on a farm or on a building site where they were supervised by their workmates,but these jobs no longer exist.
Nowadays there are very few jobs available to these people.The labouring/navvy jobs are no more its all done by machines.There is nowhere in the workplace for people who have no initiative and can’t work unsupervised on their own,so they end up on benefits.

I think you’re just simplifying the issues and looking at the problem from the wrong angle just like all the British unions have done throughout history.

The so called social security system from cradle to grave and the zb NHS system in Britain is mainly just a form of enforced rationing and employment subsidy to make sure that employers don’t need to pay the type of wages needed to run a civilised developed economy.So they’ve just fallen back on a typically socialist zb system because it suits them.

The unions are too stupid to understand the issues and have gone along with it all because the stupid zb’s think that it’s all about socialism so it must be a good thing. :unamused:

They also had plenty of farm machinery in use in the states during the 1960’s but that didn’t stop the place being an industrial powerhouse with sufficient levels of employment to provide a decent wage for the population in general.The difference is that everyone,including the unions,bargained in those wages for a system of private insurance self sufficiency in financial provision for sickness,redundancy,pensions and health care.In which case you’d never hear the type of zb that landylad and most of the commie British public think about financial provision in the event of anyone needing to claim for any of those provisions because the clue is in the word ‘private’.Under that type of system it’s got absolutely zb all to do with landylad or anyone else.That’s the difference between a zb socialist commie country and a free one. :imp: :unamused:

I’m not simplifying the issues at all Carryfast.I live in Mid Wales in a very rural area which is not and never will be like the States.Up until the 70’s a lot of labour was used on the Forestry Commission also on roadwork by the local authority who did all the road repairs.The farms don’t employ anyone other than the odd member of their own family with quite a few farmers doing contract work for others.The largest employers in this area are the quarries who are cutting down their workforce as the plant and machinery are getting bigger.There has been no union involvement in this area.As I said before the jobs for the people who haven’t got the IQ for certain jobs have no place in the job market in these areas.

There’s not (wasn’t) a big difference between the demographics and local economies in many parts of the Southern US compared to Wales when the US economy was at it’s height during the 1960’s.Some parts were mainly rural,some were mining areas and some parts had some heavy and light industry but not as much as the industrial heartlands in the North.The same applies in respect to the South East of Britain compared to the North.It’s not all highly paid bankers and stockbrokers who’ve always lived live here either and it all depends on your definition of ‘IQ’.

But in most cases,if the economy is being run properly,not everyone needs to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist to still have the ability to go out and earn a living in some kind of work that (should) pay enough to cover some decent private insurance cover for themselves and their family which covers everything that the zb British ‘social security’,National Insurance and NHS does but with the difference that the cover is/was far more effective and generous in it’s levels of cover and provision if/when it was needed than the British bolshevik type idea is or has ever been.

Unlike under the British system there’s also the added advantage,under that system,that there’s no one like landylad amongst the general public who has any right to comment and make judgements about anyone who does find themselves in the position of needing to make a claim on their own private insurance policy which is a just matter between only the claimant and the insurers according to the terms of the policy/ies as taken out.

Luckily for me I’ve always held that American view not the socialist ideals of this country and the unions,in regards to the British idea of social security and the NHS,which is why when I found myself in the situation of losing my job on health grounds I wasn’t subject to the vagaries and zb payment levels and conditions of the Incapacity Benefits and Jobseekers Allowance part of the social security system and being subjected to the judgement of those like landylad.

Unfortunately I am reliant on the zb NHS system and other aspects of the so called ‘National Insurance’ and ‘Social Security’ system if/when I need to claim on it but only because of the fact that unfortunately British wage levels and taxation policy makes it financially impossible to allow the option of being able to opt out of the whole zb commie system in total as I luckily managed to do in the case of the Incapacity Benefit and Jobseekers allowance part of the system. :imp:

Hello there Carryfast.

I can’t understand why you keep referring to me as somebody whose views are contra to yours.

I do not disagree at all with you that private insurance against sickness or unemployment etc is a good thing.

I think that here in the UK we have a nanny state where most people have been hoodwinked into thinking that they have little responsibility for their own lives and that the state owes them a living and they dont have to input anything into society and sod everyone else.

I do have a right to an opinion against the benefit scroungers as I have paid into the tax and NIC pot since 1970, year after year and have become unemployed only in the last month. I am living off my savings and working on re-skilling myself. I wont be out of work for much longer now and I wont have taken a penny from the state via benefits.

Here is where we may have a difference of opinion though.

I think that we do need some form of basic level Health Service which is free at the point of delivery. This is for practical reasons, because if I were to start having a heart attack, I would not want the ambulance or doctor to wait a day or so to process my paperwork before starting to treat me.

Back to where I think we agree.
Nothing at all wrong with private insurance approach to healthcare, unemployment benefit, accident cover. Nothing at all wrong with it and I think more people should be encouraged to use it.

Yes I would advocate sterilisation for some people.
Yes I would make people work for their state benefit handouts.
If somebody has 2 kids when they cant afford to feed/look after them then we shouldnt pay for them to have any more. Not one penny more.

No I am NOT a commie. I detest the doctrine.

The state should get its nosey little face out of our lives and let job and wealth creators get on with generating jobs and wealth.

Why should an employer be made to pay
NIC
Sick Pay
Maternity pay
Paternity pay
Adoption pay
■■?

NIC - Why should an employer pay a Tax to employ somebody■■? Crazy!!
I dont know why either.
Why is it the responsibility of an employer to pay for somebody to have a baby?

If the state thinks that those things are ‘God given rights’, then the state should manage and pay for them.

Carryfast:

Dave the Renegade:

Carryfast:

Dave the Renegade:
There will always be people that abuse the benefit system.There are a lot of genuine claimants of benefits out there.But as in everything there are people who know how to work the system and claim anything and everything.There are people who years ago would have got a job as a labourer on a farm or on a building site where they were supervised by their workmates,but these jobs no longer exist.
Nowadays there are very few jobs available to these people.The labouring/navvy jobs are no more its all done by machines.There is nowhere in the workplace for people who have no initiative and can’t work unsupervised on their own,so they end up on benefits.

I think you’re just simplifying the issues and looking at the problem from the wrong angle just like all the British unions have done throughout history.

The so called social security system from cradle to grave and the zb NHS system in Britain is mainly just a form of enforced rationing and employment subsidy to make sure that employers don’t need to pay the type of wages needed to run a civilised developed economy.So they’ve just fallen back on a typically socialist zb system because it suits them.

The unions are too stupid to understand the issues and have gone along with it all because the stupid zb’s think that it’s all about socialism so it must be a good thing. :unamused:

They also had plenty of farm machinery in use in the states during the 1960’s but that didn’t stop the place being an industrial powerhouse with sufficient levels of employment to provide a decent wage for the population in general.The difference is that everyone,including the unions,bargained in those wages for a system of private insurance self sufficiency in financial provision for sickness,redundancy,pensions and health care.In which case you’d never hear the type of zb that landylad and most of the commie British public think about financial provision in the event of anyone needing to claim for any of those provisions because the clue is in the word ‘private’.Under that type of system it’s got absolutely zb all to do with landylad or anyone else.That’s the difference between a zb socialist commie country and a free one. :imp: :unamused:

I’m not simplifying the issues at all Carryfast.I live in Mid Wales in a very rural area which is not and never will be like the States.Up until the 70’s a lot of labour was used on the Forestry Commission also on roadwork by the local authority who did all the road repairs.The farms don’t employ anyone other than the odd member of their own family with quite a few farmers doing contract work for others.The largest employers in this area are the quarries who are cutting down their workforce as the plant and machinery are getting bigger.There has been no union involvement in this area.As I said before the jobs for the people who haven’t got the IQ for certain jobs have no place in the job market in these areas.

There’s not (wasn’t) a big difference between the demographics and local economies in many parts of the Southern US compared to Wales when the US economy was at it’s height during the 1960’s.Some parts were mainly rural,some were mining areas and some parts had some heavy and light industry but not as much as the industrial heartlands in the North.The same applies in respect to the South East of Britain compared to the North.It’s not all highly paid bankers and stockbrokers who’ve always lived live here either and it all depends on your definition of ‘IQ’.

But in most cases,if the economy is being run properly,not everyone needs to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist to still have the ability to go out and earn a living in some kind of work that (should) pay enough to cover some decent private insurance cover for themselves and their family which covers everything that the zb British ‘social security’,National Insurance and NHS does but with the difference that the cover is/was far more effective and generous in it’s levels of cover and provision if/when it was needed than the British bolshevik type idea is or has ever been.

Unlike under the British system there’s also the added advantage,under that system,that there’s no one like landylad amongst the general public who has any right to comment and make judgements about anyone who does find themselves in the position of needing to make a claim on their own private insurance policy which is a just matter between only the claimant and the insurers according to the terms of the policy/ies as taken out.

Luckily for me I’ve always held that American view not the socialist ideals of this country and the unions,in regards to the British idea of social security and the NHS,which is why when I found myself in the situation of losing my job on health grounds I wasn’t subject to the vagaries and zb payment levels and conditions of the Incapacity Benefits and Jobseekers Allowance part of the social security system and being subjected to the judgement of those like landylad.

Unfortunately I am reliant on the zb NHS system and other aspects of the so called ‘National Insurance’ and ‘Social Security’ system if/when I need to claim on it but only because of the fact that unfortunately British wage levels and taxation policy makes it financially impossible to allow the option of being able to opt out of the whole zb commie system in total as I luckily managed to do in the case of the Incapacity Benefit and Jobseekers allowance part of the system. :imp:

Carryfast you are missing the point I am trying to make.The people that I am referring to who are no longer able to get a job are those that are of low intelligence or in unpolitical terms not very bright.In years gone by there were jobs for them such as labouring and general farm work which didn’t involve machinery.But nowadays those jobs don’t exist so these unfortunate individuals have no way of finding a job and end up on benefits.

Employers who pay maternity allowance to their staff get the money back anyway, so why bring that into it?

LandyLad:
Hello there Carryfast.

I can’t understand why you keep referring to me as somebody whose views are contra to yours.

I do not disagree at all with you that private insurance against sickness or unemployment etc is a good thing.

I think that here in the UK we have a nanny state where most people have been hoodwinked into thinking that they have little responsibility for their own lives and that the state owes them a living and they dont have to input anything into society and sod everyone else.

I do have a right to an opinion against the benefit scroungers as I have paid into the tax and NIC pot since 1970, year after year and have become unemployed only in the last month. I am living off my savings and working on re-skilling myself. I wont be out of work for much longer now and I wont have taken a penny from the state via benefits.

Here is where we may have a difference of opinion though.

I think that we do need some form of basic level Health Service which is free at the point of delivery. This is for practical reasons, because if I were to start having a heart attack, I would not want the ambulance or doctor to wait a day or so to process my paperwork before starting to treat me.

Back to where I think we agree.
Nothing at all wrong with private insurance approach to healthcare, unemployment benefit, accident cover. Nothing at all wrong with it and I think more people should be encouraged to use it.

Yes I would advocate sterilisation for some people.
Yes I would make people work for their state benefit handouts.
If somebody has 2 kids when they cant afford to feed/look after them then we shouldnt pay for them to have any more. Not one penny more.

No I am NOT a commie. I detest the doctrine.

The state should get its nosey little face out of our lives and let job and wealth creators get on with generating jobs and wealth.

Why should an employer be made to pay
NIC
Sick Pay
Maternity pay
Paternity pay
Adoption pay
■■?

NIC - Why should an employer pay a Tax to employ somebody■■? Crazy!!
I dont know why either.
Why is it the responsibility of an employer to pay for somebody to have a baby?

If the state thinks that those things are ‘God given rights’, then the state should manage and pay for them.

One way or another every single cost that we incur throughout our lives from cradle to grave has to be passed back into the economy through the price charged for our labour/services wether that be as an employee or as self employed.

The present commie social security and NHS system is just a big scam set up by the government to subsidise employers by making people (think) that the whole over priced zb system covers them for more than it actually does.

As to your comments ‘why should an employer pay’ then who the zb is going to pay if the employer,or a self employed worker,doesn’t by then passing that cost on back into the economy through prices :question: :question: .

The only difference between what I’m saying and what we’ve already got is that ‘all’ of the ‘real’ costs should be accounted for and costed into the economy by way of prices for labour,goods and services.Not by way of taxes and all of those costs wouldn’t be charged on the basis of the present zb system of so called state provided income protection ‘insurance’ and NHS etc etc in which we’re subsidising employers profit margins by accepting cheap rate cover,paying taxes to fund someone else’s costs,and in which we’re getting zb value for money on the services that the state does provide anyway in exchange for the amount of tax that we’re paying for the privilege,when private cover can do the job better with no need for anyone like you to be checking on what the other person might or might not be claiming for on their policy,because if it’s private it’s got zb all to do with you. :bulb: :imp:

It’s also no surprise to see that the most extreme right wingers are actually just really socialists when it suits them just as in ■■■■ Germany and as in the case of pick and choose and lets keep the NHS because of some red herring old tat about emergency medical procedures under a private insurance funded scheme.It’s just that as with all socialists they are more interested in making judgements about each other and in which each person keeps a check on the others.

The fact is if it’s decent cover the hospital will have all the required information to hand from your ID which determines which hospital you’ll get taken to at the point of first attendance and what you’re covered for.In just the same way as when you go to the states for a 6 week or more holiday,with the unlimited private medical cover that,if you’ve got any sense,you’ll have got in place before you go,and that (was) also an accepted essential part of the cost of living and procedure for all Americans (before Reagan gave all of their jobs to the Mexicans and the Chinese) all of their lives not just for 6 weeks or so.In just the same way that pets here often get better treatment at the vets than people do in an NHS hospital assuming that their owners have taken out decent medical cover.

No ifs no buts no get outs if we’re going to rid of the whole zb’d up mess then it’s got to be all or nothing.

Dave the Renegade:

Carryfast:

Dave the Renegade:

Carryfast:

Dave the Renegade:
There will always be people that abuse the benefit system.There are a lot of genuine claimants of benefits out there.But as in everything there are people who know how to work the system and claim anything and everything.There are people who years ago would have got a job as a labourer on a farm or on a building site where they were supervised by their workmates,but these jobs no longer exist.
Nowadays there are very few jobs available to these people.The labouring/navvy jobs are no more its all done by machines.There is nowhere in the workplace for people who have no initiative and can’t work unsupervised on their own,so they end up on benefits.

I think you’re just simplifying the issues and looking at the problem from the wrong angle just like all the British unions have done throughout history.

The so called social security system from cradle to grave and the zb NHS system in Britain is mainly just a form of enforced rationing and employment subsidy to make sure that employers don’t need to pay the type of wages needed to run a civilised developed economy.So they’ve just fallen back on a typically socialist zb system because it suits them.

The unions are too stupid to understand the issues and have gone along with it all because the stupid zb’s think that it’s all about socialism so it must be a good thing. :unamused:

They also had plenty of farm machinery in use in the states during the 1960’s but that didn’t stop the place being an industrial powerhouse with sufficient levels of employment to provide a decent wage for the population in general.The difference is that everyone,including the unions,bargained in those wages for a system of private insurance self sufficiency in financial provision for sickness,redundancy,pensions and health care.In which case you’d never hear the type of zb that landylad and most of the commie British public think about financial provision in the event of anyone needing to claim for any of those provisions because the clue is in the word ‘private’.Under that type of system it’s got absolutely zb all to do with landylad or anyone else.That’s the difference between a zb socialist commie country and a free one. :imp: :unamused:

I’m not simplifying the issues at all Carryfast.I live in Mid Wales in a very rural area which is not and never will be like the States.Up until the 70’s a lot of labour was used on the Forestry Commission also on roadwork by the local authority who did all the road repairs.The farms don’t employ anyone other than the odd member of their own family with quite a few farmers doing contract work for others.The largest employers in this area are the quarries who are cutting down their workforce as the plant and machinery are getting bigger.There has been no union involvement in this area.As I said before the jobs for the people who haven’t got the IQ for certain jobs have no place in the job market in these areas.

There’s not (wasn’t) a big difference between the demographics and local economies in many parts of the Southern US compared to Wales when the US economy was at it’s height during the 1960’s.Some parts were mainly rural,some were mining areas and some parts had some heavy and light industry but not as much as the industrial heartlands in the North.The same applies in respect to the South East of Britain compared to the North.It’s not all highly paid bankers and stockbrokers who’ve always lived live here either and it all depends on your definition of ‘IQ’.

But in most cases,if the economy is being run properly,not everyone needs to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist to still have the ability to go out and earn a living in some kind of work that (should) pay enough to cover some decent private insurance cover for themselves and their family which covers everything that the zb British ‘social security’,National Insurance and NHS does but with the difference that the cover is/was far more effective and generous in it’s levels of cover and provision if/when it was needed than the British bolshevik type idea is or has ever been.

Unlike under the British system there’s also the added advantage,under that system,that there’s no one like landylad amongst the general public who has any right to comment and make judgements about anyone who does find themselves in the position of needing to make a claim on their own private insurance policy which is a just matter between only the claimant and the insurers according to the terms of the policy/ies as taken out.

Luckily for me I’ve always held that American view not the socialist ideals of this country and the unions,in regards to the British idea of social security and the NHS,which is why when I found myself in the situation of losing my job on health grounds I wasn’t subject to the vagaries and zb payment levels and conditions of the Incapacity Benefits and Jobseekers Allowance part of the social security system and being subjected to the judgement of those like landylad.

Unfortunately I am reliant on the zb NHS system and other aspects of the so called ‘National Insurance’ and ‘Social Security’ system if/when I need to claim on it but only because of the fact that unfortunately British wage levels and taxation policy makes it financially impossible to allow the option of being able to opt out of the whole zb commie system in total as I luckily managed to do in the case of the Incapacity Benefit and Jobseekers allowance part of the system. :imp:

Carryfast you are missing the point I am trying to make.The people that I am referring to who are no longer able to get a job are those that are of low intelligence or in unpolitical terms not very bright.In years gone by there were jobs for them such as labouring and general farm work which didn’t involve machinery.But nowadays those jobs don’t exist so these unfortunate individuals have no way of finding a job and end up on benefits.

Blimey Dave if the Americans could make it work with the worst case scenario of some inbred hill billys then I’m sure that we could with the worst case scenario of some thick Taffs. :open_mouth: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Heres a quote from the Government HMRC website.

“You’ll normally be able to recover some or all of the SMP you pay”

Normally suggests there are circumstances in which you cant recover SMP paid.

Some suggests that you may not get all of it back.

Anyway, why should an employer have to do the governments job of paying this stuff out? Different if the employer could invoice the government with administration fee to cover the wages of the person required to do the paperwork on behalf of the government.

I dont disagree with SMP or SSP or SPP or SAP being paid out by the government, just why should an employer do it? Most small businesses dont have the resources to fill in government paperwork properly, its just too time consuming. Or if they do, then its the customer who ends up paying through higher prices or the employees who end up paying in lower wages.

Higher prices to customers or lower wages to employees to fund the extra time and training needed for admin. staff to be able to do the governments paperwork.

If customer pays, then firm is less competitive and employees lose out with less secure jobs or lower wages.

I’m not simplifying the issues at all Carryfast.I live in Mid Wales in a very rural area which is not and never will be like the States.Up until the 70’s a lot of labour was used on the Forestry Commission also on roadwork by the local authority who did all the road repairs.The farms don’t employ anyone other than the odd member of their own family with quite a few farmers doing contract work for others.The largest employers in this area are the quarries who are cutting down their workforce as the plant and machinery are getting bigger.There has been no union involvement in this area.As I said before the jobs for the people who haven’t got the IQ for certain jobs have no place in the job market in these areas.
[/quote]
There’s not (wasn’t) a big difference between the demographics and local economies in many parts of the Southern US compared to Wales when the US economy was at it’s height during the 1960’s.Some parts were mainly rural,some were mining areas and some parts had some heavy and light industry but not as much as the industrial heartlands in the North.The same applies in respect to the South East of Britain compared to the North.It’s not all highly paid bankers and stockbrokers who’ve always lived live here either and it all depends on your definition of ‘IQ’.

But in most cases,if the economy is being run properly,not everyone needs to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist to still have the ability to go out and earn a living in some kind of work that (should) pay enough to cover some decent private insurance cover for themselves and their family which covers everything that the zb British ‘social security’,National Insurance and NHS does but with the difference that the cover is/was far more effective and generous in it’s levels of cover and provision if/when it was needed than the British bolshevik type idea is or has ever been.

Unlike under the British system there’s also the added advantage,under that system,that there’s no one like landylad amongst the general public who has any right to comment and make judgements about anyone who does find themselves in the position of needing to make a claim on their own private insurance policy which is a just matter between only the claimant and the insurers according to the terms of the policy/ies as taken out.

Luckily for me I’ve always held that American view not the socialist ideals of this country and the unions,in regards to the British idea of social security and the NHS,which is why when I found myself in the situation of losing my job on health grounds I wasn’t subject to the vagaries and zb payment levels and conditions of the Incapacity Benefits and Jobseekers Allowance part of the social security system and being subjected to the judgement of those like landylad.

Unfortunately I am reliant on the zb NHS system and other aspects of the so called ‘National Insurance’ and ‘Social Security’ system if/when I need to claim on it but only because of the fact that unfortunately British wage levels and taxation policy makes it financially impossible to allow the option of being able to opt out of the whole zb commie system in total as I luckily managed to do in the case of the Incapacity Benefit and Jobseekers allowance part of the system. :imp:
[/quote]
Carryfast you are missing the point I am trying to make.The people that I am referring to who are no longer able to get a job are those that are of low intelligence or in unpolitical terms not very bright.In years gone by there were jobs for them such as labouring and general farm work which didn’t involve machinery.But nowadays those jobs don’t exist so these unfortunate individuals have no way of finding a job and end up on benefits.
[/quote]
Blimey Dave if the Americans could make it work with the worst case scenario of some inbred hill billys then I’m sure that we could with the worst case scenario of some thick Taffs. :open_mouth: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
[/quote]
You are making comparisons from the 60’s America and 2012 UK Carryfast.A totally different day and age with different cultures.I am referring to people with learning disabilities in this country and you are comparing them with Jed Clampett and the like :exclamation:

LandyLad:
If customer pays, then firm is less competitive and employees lose out with less secure jobs or lower wages.

The only way that the firm would be less competitive and employees lose out with less secure jobs or lower wages is if the customer is given the choice to buy goods and services from zb countries with uncivilised,backward,health care and social costs provision such as decent hospital/medical services,redundancy and sickness income protection insurance provision amongst others (China and Mexico being good examples).

Just as has happened in the US since Reagan threw the doors open to the global free market economy in which,no surprise,the Americans are now all shouting for an NHS and zb social security system just like we’ve got,because their employers are no longer prepared,or able to afford,to pay the wages required for decent private insurance to cover their social costs.

As for Britain your comments are exactly the type of reasoning that the present socialist zb system here is based on.Just as the extreme right wing can be as socialist as any communist when it suits them the same applies to so called free countries like Britain in which,supposedly conservative employers,are happy enough to rely on a zb,third rate,cheap and nasty,communist social security and health care system in order to subsidise their competitiveness in the so called global free market economy, against countries with equally bad,or even worse zb systems of social provision for their populations. :unamused: :imp:

Dave the Renegade:
I’m not simplifying the issues at all Carryfast.I live in Mid Wales in a very rural area which is not and never will be like the States.Up until the 70’s a lot of labour was used on the Forestry Commission also on roadwork by the local authority who did all the road repairs.The farms don’t employ anyone other than the odd member of their own family with quite a few farmers doing contract work for others.The largest employers in this area are the quarries who are cutting down their workforce as the plant and machinery are getting bigger.There has been no union involvement in this area.As I said before the jobs for the people who haven’t got the IQ for certain jobs have no place in the job market in these areas.

There’s not (wasn’t) a big difference between the demographics and local economies in many parts of the Southern US compared to Wales when the US economy was at it’s height during the 1960’s.Some parts were mainly rural,some were mining areas and some parts had some heavy and light industry but not as much as the industrial heartlands in the North.The same applies in respect to the South East of Britain compared to the North.It’s not all highly paid bankers and stockbrokers who’ve always lived live here either and it all depends on your definition of ‘IQ’.

But in most cases,if the economy is being run properly,not everyone needs to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist to still have the ability to go out and earn a living in some kind of work that (should) pay enough to cover some decent private insurance cover for themselves and their family which covers everything that the zb British ‘social security’,National Insurance and NHS does but with the difference that the cover is/was far more effective and generous in it’s levels of cover and provision if/when it was needed than the British bolshevik type idea is or has ever been.

Unlike under the British system there’s also the added advantage,under that system,that there’s no one like landylad amongst the general public who has any right to comment and make judgements about anyone who does find themselves in the position of needing to make a claim on their own private insurance policy which is a just matter between only the claimant and the insurers according to the terms of the policy/ies as taken out.

Luckily for me I’ve always held that American view not the socialist ideals of this country and the unions,in regards to the British idea of social security and the NHS,which is why when I found myself in the situation of losing my job on health grounds I wasn’t subject to the vagaries and zb payment levels and conditions of the Incapacity Benefits and Jobseekers Allowance part of the social security system and being subjected to the judgement of those like landylad.

Unfortunately I am reliant on the zb NHS system and other aspects of the so called ‘National Insurance’ and ‘Social Security’ system if/when I need to claim on it but only because of the fact that unfortunately British wage levels and taxation policy makes it financially impossible to allow the option of being able to opt out of the whole zb commie system in total as I luckily managed to do in the case of the Incapacity Benefit and Jobseekers allowance part of the system. :imp:
[/quote]
Carryfast you are missing the point I am trying to make.The people that I am referring to who are no longer able to get a job are those that are of low intelligence or in unpolitical terms not very bright.In years gone by there were jobs for them such as labouring and general farm work which didn’t involve machinery.But nowadays those jobs don’t exist so these unfortunate individuals have no way of finding a job and end up on benefits.
[/quote]
Blimey Dave if the Americans could make it work with the worst case scenario of some inbred hill billys then I’m sure that we could with the worst case scenario of some thick Taffs. :open_mouth: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
[/quote]
You are making comparisons from the 60’s America and 2012 UK Carryfast.A totally different day and age with different cultures.I am referring to people with learning disabilities in this country and you are comparing them with Jed Clampett and the like :exclamation:
[/quote]
Dave it’s a simple choice of get back to 1960’s America or end up with an economy based on whatever the zb extremists and commie zb’s see fit and those with learning difficulties,or who fall on hard times for any other type of reason,are going to be a lot worse off under landylad’s and most of the others’,who think like him,ideas in the future,under the system we’ve got,and where it’s heading.Suggest you read through his posts again concerning his idea of a ‘social security’ system compared to mine.

Carryfast:

Dave the Renegade:
I’m not simplifying the issues at all Carryfast.I live in Mid Wales in a very rural area which is not and never will be like the States.Up until the 70’s a lot of labour was used on the Forestry Commission also on roadwork by the local authority who did all the road repairs.The farms don’t employ anyone other than the odd member of their own family with quite a few farmers doing contract work for others.The largest employers in this area are the quarries who are cutting down their workforce as the plant and machinery are getting bigger.There has been no union involvement in this area.As I said before the jobs for the people who haven’t got the IQ for certain jobs have no place in the job market in these areas.

There’s not (wasn’t) a big difference between the demographics and local economies in many parts of the Southern US compared to Wales when the US economy was at it’s height during the 1960’s.Some parts were mainly rural,some were mining areas and some parts had some heavy and light industry but not as much as the industrial heartlands in the North.The same applies in respect to the South East of Britain compared to the North.It’s not all highly paid bankers and stockbrokers who’ve always lived live here either and it all depends on your definition of ‘IQ’.

But in most cases,if the economy is being run properly,not everyone needs to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist to still have the ability to go out and earn a living in some kind of work that (should) pay enough to cover some decent private insurance cover for themselves and their family which covers everything that the zb British ‘social security’,National Insurance and NHS does but with the difference that the cover is/was far more effective and generous in it’s levels of cover and provision if/when it was needed than the British bolshevik type idea is or has ever been.

Unlike under the British system there’s also the added advantage,under that system,that there’s no one like landylad amongst the general public who has any right to comment and make judgements about anyone who does find themselves in the position of needing to make a claim on their own private insurance policy which is a just matter between only the claimant and the insurers according to the terms of the policy/ies as taken out.

Luckily for me I’ve always held that American view not the socialist ideals of this country and the unions,in regards to the British idea of social security and the NHS,which is why when I found myself in the situation of losing my job on health grounds I wasn’t subject to the vagaries and zb payment levels and conditions of the Incapacity Benefits and Jobseekers Allowance part of the social security system and being subjected to the judgement of those like landylad.

Unfortunately I am reliant on the zb NHS system and other aspects of the so called ‘National Insurance’ and ‘Social Security’ system if/when I need to claim on it but only because of the fact that unfortunately British wage levels and taxation policy makes it financially impossible to allow the option of being able to opt out of the whole zb commie system in total as I luckily managed to do in the case of the Incapacity Benefit and Jobseekers allowance part of the system. :imp:

Carryfast you are missing the point I am trying to make.The people that I am referring to who are no longer able to get a job are those that are of low intelligence or in unpolitical terms not very bright.In years gone by there were jobs for them such as labouring and general farm work which didn’t involve machinery.But nowadays those jobs don’t exist so these unfortunate individuals have no way of finding a job and end up on benefits.
[/quote]
Blimey Dave if the Americans could make it work with the worst case scenario of some inbred hill billys then I’m sure that we could with the worst case scenario of some thick Taffs. :open_mouth: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
[/quote]
You are making comparisons from the 60’s America and 2012 UK Carryfast.A totally different day and age with different cultures.I am referring to people with learning disabilities in this country and you are comparing them with Jed Clampett and the like :exclamation:
[/quote]
Dave it’s a simple choice of get back to 1960’s America or end up with an economy based on whatever the zb extremists and commie zb’s see fit and those with learning difficulties,or who fall on hard times for any other type of reason,are going to be a lot worse off under landylad’s and most of the others’,who think like him,ideas in the future,under the system we’ve got,and where it’s heading.Suggest you read through his posts again concerning his idea of a ‘social security’ system compared to mine.
[/quote]
I have read through his posts and yours Carryfast.I’m not trying to score points over you or him.As a director of a disabled organisation I am trying to put the side of the people less fortunate than ourselves who wouldn’t be able to state their case on a PC.
By the way Carryfast what is your first name,its better than typing your user name all the time.
Cheers Dave.

Dave the Renegade:
As a director of a disabled organisation I am trying to put the side of the people less fortunate than ourselves who wouldn’t be able to state their case on a PC.
By the way Carryfast what is your first name,its better than typing your user name all the time.
Cheers Dave.

You only need to see the Incapacity Benefits system in action to realise that much of landylad’s ideas have already been implemented long ago.The definition of disability under the ‘all work test’ means that taxes paid in by a truck driver,for sickness cover,under that section of the social security system,in the case of being declared unfit to carry out the job,only ‘actually’,in reality,covers the eventuality of effectively being paralysed from the kneck down and being totally,functionally unable,to carry out any task which could remotely be connected to any mythical non existent job dreamed up by the DWP.Who,of course,have an interest in not paying out the pittance it would have paid anyway and using the tax revenues saved to bail out the banks bad foreign debts instead.While the driver in question then has to get involved with all the vagaries of claiming Jobseekers Allowance for whatever type of job they send them for or even just work for their ‘benefits’ instead under landylad’s ideas. :unamused:

But the description ‘learning difficulties’ would probably be applied in many types of case these days which wouldn’t have been years ago.Probably even in my own case in which a school history of disinterest and not getting on with teachers and not liking authority (with good reason in most cases) and getting out of the place at every opportunity and leaving without taking the required exams didn’t really bother my first employers or have any effect whatsoever in my ability to go out and work for a living.Unlike these days where it’s all about studying for pointless irrelevant qualifications and writing out a grovelling CV etc etc etc.

I think the issue today is more one of de industrialisation and lack of jobs in general and employers putting up barriers against employees that aren’t needed.Added to which we’ve got a tax funded socialist ‘social security’ system that’s subject to the ideas of people like landylad. :unamused:

When what’s needed is jobs and civilised wages suited to a developed economy and workers being told not to rely on the false sense of security provided by the so called social security system and NHS and being allowed to opt out instead with the tax saved being put into some decent insurance policies. :bulb:

Geoff.

Hi Carryfast,

I think it might be helpfull if you could please summarise what YOU think my views or position are. I can’t recognise my views from how you refer to them. Thanks.

Also, I am getting confused messages from the portions of your posts where you put forward your own viewpoints. Any chance you could make a statement outlining your views and proposals please? Thanks.

Perhaps we are each of us failing to really see what the other wants to say.

LandyLad

LandyLad:
Hi Carryfast,

I think it might be helpfull if you could please summarise what YOU think my views or position are. I can’t recognise my views from how you refer to them. Thanks.

Also, I am getting confused messages from the portions of your posts where you put forward your own viewpoints. Any chance you could make a statement outlining your views and proposals please? Thanks.

Perhaps we are each of us failing to really see what the other wants to say.

LandyLad

The difference seems obvious to me.

I don’t think that there’s anything in your ideas which show that they’re all about trade barriers and stoppage of cheap imported labour to make a high demand,low supply,therefore high employment,high wage,labour market and replacement of the present zb social security and NHS system with a private insurance funded one in which claimants would have better benefits and provision in the event of needing them not worse.

For example under the existing system and your ideas a truck driver like me,who lost his job on health grounds,would have ended up having to work,in whatever job,for the Jobseekers Allowance,having been turned down for incapacity benefit which would have paid zb all anyway even if he could have met the definition of disability of effectively being paralysed from the neck down.

Whereas what actually happened is that I was paid enough to live on from a private policy which just covered the eventuality of being unable to carry out the job for whatever medical reason and in which the terms of the policy and how much was covered or claimed had zb all to do with anyone else.

However why the zb should I also have had to pay into a zb commie system in relation to the rip off ‘Incapacity Benefit’ ‘cover’ that I didn’t need or want :question: .Which would also have applied in respect of all the other parts of the social security system and NHS assuming that I was being paid enough to afford all the insurance cover.

carryfast,

I agree with your last two paragraphs completely.

I dont think anybody should be forced to contribute to NIC if they dont want to.

I am contracted out of Serps myself, but of course I still have to pay basic NIC.

But if we were able to opt out of the state taking NIC from us by default whether we liked it or not, then we would have to make sure that we had got really good comprehensive insurance cover from a private provider. -Yes? Thats what you say? Cant argue against that.

If you have paid into the state NIC pot and due to some unfortunate circumstance you cant (as opposed to cant be arsed to) work, then you need payment out of it and you should have been granted it and my views are that you should zbing well get it.

The argument I was forwarding for such a case was NOT that the test of your fitness to work is so stupidly stringent that nobody could ever qualify for it, no I was going along with the governments proposal to CAP benefits to some amount which would allow the claimant to live a comfortable but not WEALTHY lifestyle.

For me and most of the people I know £26000 is a LOT of money.

I differentiate between people who are WILLING to work but can’t and people who are determined NOT to work even though they are quite capable.

You keep criticising the current system as being ‘commie’. That is where I have been misunderstanding you. It is Khafka-esque rather than ‘commie’. It is just plain STUPID (in respect to people like you), not ‘commie’.

To summarise my view - If you have paid in to the welfare state system, then you are entitled to be paid out of it when you need to. Thats exactly the same theory as for Private Insurance. The difference is that labour government would make it as difficult as they can for ordinary hard working people like you to get anything out, whilst on the other hand they would fall over themselves to pay as much as they can to the bone idle feckless who have NEVER EVER had any intention of working at all.

That in my opinion is why we have a society where a lot of people cant be arsed to work and think that everything is to be done for them by the state. Under such a system, why should ANYBODY bother going to work?

landyLad