ROG:
…I cannot remember which of the VOSA experts it was that said to me…
MMTM 
That sounds ominous, a VOSA expert by gad. 
It’s still SIX days.
turnip:
Aetr has absolutely nothing to do with it unless you are somehow exempt eu rules .Eu rules take presidence in all member countries unless exempt.
Not true, if your journey is to, or will pass through, a country which is a signatory to the AETR Agreement then AETR apply rules for the whole of the journey. That means for those journeys the AETR rules will take precedence in EU countries.
AETR Countries.
Albania
Andorra
Armenia
Azerbaijan
Belarus
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Croatia
Kazakhstan
Liechtenstein
Macedonia
Moldova
Russia
Serbia and Montenegro
Turkey
Turkmenistan
Ukraine
Uzbekistan
Scotchbaz:
ROG:
…I cannot remember which of the VOSA experts it was that said to me…MMTM
That sounds ominous, a VOSA expert by gad.
VOSA tacho reg expert at -
Peterborough GVTS, Saville Road, Westwood, Peterborough, PE3 6TL
Tel: 01733 263 423
and he WILL TELL you that your six day statement is incorrect if used in conjunction with the DAILY rest regs
Please post his reply to you on here - I awaits…
Mike-C:
Coffeeholic:
The beginning a weekly rest period no later than 144 hours after commencing work following a weekly rest period thing is there to take account of a driver who may have longer daily rest periods between shifts. Someone who worked irregular hours could have gaps of 15 - 20 hours between shifts for example so could reach 144 hours before completing 6 shifts. It could be possible they may not get into a 5th shift and require a weekly rest period because they have come up against the 144 hour rule.This bit is not correct
There is no 144 hour rule
That’s correct there isn’t. I worded that badly, I was referring to the use of VOSA’s 144 hour explanation of when a weekly rest must start by in THIS and shouldn’t have used the word rule . 
ROG:
Scotchbaz:
ROG:
…I cannot remember which of the VOSA experts it was that said to me…MMTM
That sounds ominous, a VOSA expert by gad.
VOSA tacho reg expert at -
Peterborough GVTS, Saville Road, Westwood, Peterborough, PE3 6TL
Tel: 01733 263 423and he WILL TELL you that your six day statement is incorrect if used in conjunction with the DAILY rest regs
Please post his reply to you on here - I awaits…
ROG I really don’t care what your expert told you, in relation to the original question, it’s still six days. The fact that he needed (supposedly) to use a seventh looks to me like very bad planning. End of. Period. Point blank. Endex.
ROG:
Mike-C:
Are you acting the goat?29 In its judgment in Van Swieten, cited above, the Court defined the expression “period of 24 hours” as meaning the period commencing at the time when the driver activates the tachograph following a weekly or daily rest period.
30 The reply to the second question should therefore be that the term “day”, within the meaning of Regulations Nos 3820/85 and 3821/85, must be understood as equivalent to the term “period of 24 hours”, which refers to any period of that duration which commences at the time when the driver activates the tachograph following a weekly or daily rest period.
ERR… that’s a ruling on the old regs which have been surpassed by the new regs.
I cannot remember which of the VOSA experts it was that said to me that the particular part you refer to has NOT been taken on by the new regs - I’ll try and find out what the exact phrase he used was as it was in a more legal term but meant the same as what I just said - that court ruling has nowt to do with the 06 regsFair play though - good investigative work
ROG,
here’s a summary of the ruling
Summary
The “daily working period” within the meaning of Article 15(2) of Regulation No 3821/85 on recording equipment in road transport comprises the driving time, all other periods of work, the period of availability, breaks in work and, where the driver divides his daily rest into two or three periods, such a period of rest, provided that it does not exceed one hour. The “daily working period” commences at the time when the driver activates the tachograph following a weekly or daily rest period, or, where the daily rest is divided into separate periods, following the rest period of at least eight hours’ duration. It ends at the beginning of a daily rest period or, if the daily rest is divided into separate periods, at the beginning of a rest period extending over a minimum of eight consecutive hours.
The term “day”, within the meaning of Regulation No 3820/85 on the harmonization of certain social legislation relating to road transport and of Regulation No 3821/85 on recording equipment in road transport, must be understood as equivalent to the term “period of 24 hours”, which refers to any period of that duration which commences at the time when the driver activates the tachograph following a weekly or daily rest period.
Just incase the VOSA expert doesn’t know, i’ll tell you that Regulation No 3821/85 is still very much in excistence
Dont’ be influenced by Tachograph mistakenley telling us they are old regs
And here is 3821/85 in all its glory
eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex … 821:EN:NOT
Please call the Peterborough number I posted and get the expert to tell you exactly what did and did not get kept when the old regs changed to the present ones - I will guarantee you that he will say that what you refer to did not.
Don’t take my word for it - call the experts
tachograph:
Mike-C:
The Court ruling specifies exactly what a “24 hour period” is.You’re right it does specify what a 24 hour period is but most people over the age of six don’t need it explained to them
the term “period of 24 hours”, which refers to any period of that duration which commences at the time when the driver activates the tachograph following a weekly or daily rest period.
Not that it really matters because it’s been amended by far more recent regulations anyway
Has it though? While it is true the regulations have been amended, the term 24-hour period remains in the new regulations and that term has been defined by the court. They haven’t used a new term and by sticking with this term does that not mean the court ruling will indeed still apply? If the intention had been to alter the regulations so this ruling no longer applied surely they would have removed the term from the new regulations, they didn’t so…?
ROG:
Please call the Peterborough number I posted and get the expert to tell you exactly what did and did not get kept when the old regs changed to the present ones.
The thing is ROG that term does indeed remain in the regulations so does that not mean the ruling on that term is still valid?
As it stands at the moment it appears VOSA will not prosecute for ‘7 cards in 6 days’ and that is sort of confirmed by what people from VOSA have posted on this thread but I think they will take a totally different stance over the water, remember the 144 hour thing seems to be a VOSA thing and not necessarily a Euro wide thing.
While I bow to geebee45’s far superior knowledge on the subject I have to say I am finding it hard to understand how the EU regulations tell us what a 24 hour period is, tell us we must have a weekly rest after 6 of them but we can ignore that because of the 144 hour thing which isn’t actually in the regulations and is only in the VOSA guide to the regs.
I always took the 144 hour thing to be an ‘or’ thing, 6x24 hour periods (the tacho rules definition of a 24-hour period and not 24x60 minutes) or 144 hours whichever comes first.
Because this thread has already been taken to subliminal levels of stupidity by people who really should know better, why not get Harry Hill to sort this out
Which is right?
Six days max or as many as you want?
There’s only one way to find out……FIGHT
Scotchbaz:
:idea: Because this thread has already been taken to subliminal levels of stupidity by people who really should know better, why not get Harry Hill to sort this outWhich is right?
Six days max or as many as you want?
There’s only one way to find out……FIGHT
Or call an expert 
ROG:
Scotchbaz:
:idea: Because this thread has already been taken to subliminal levels of stupidity by people who really should know better, why not get Harry Hill to sort this outWhich is right?
Six days max or as many as you want?
There’s only one way to find out……FIGHT
Or call an expert
As I mentioned further up the thread ROG, calling an expert at VOSA does not guarantee you the correct answer.
Scotchbaz:
Okay, working under the assumption that you’re driving a UK vehicle/ vehicle combination over 3.5 tonnes, the rules have not changed since I have been driving that much, and as stated in the “Rules on Drivers’ Hours and Tachographs (Goods vehicles in the UK and Europe)”, the following can be found, in black and white. “GB domestic limit (a maximum of 10 hours of driving a day) must always be obeyed. But at any time when you are actually driving under the EU rules you must obey all the rules on EU driving limits.” And to clarify; “Day: The day is the 24-hour period beginning with the start of duty time.”.
You are mixing two sets of rules there, the EU rules, which the majority of us work under, do not define a limit on the number of driving hours in a calendar 24 hours.
You are surely not suggesting that if a driver starts at 06:00 Monday and works until 18:00, doing 10 hours driving in that time there is no point him taking a 9 hour daily rest because he can’t drive again until 06:00? Are you, because it reads that way? 
Coffeeholic:
As I mentioned further up the thread ROG, calling an expert at VOSA does not guarantee you the correct answer.
sorry, missed that post for some odd reason
The Vosa tacho chap I spoke to at peterboro’ did say that it was ‘unfortunate’ that the 6 x 24 hours was not replaced by 144 hours as it would have made things much clearer on face value and saved confusions like this.
I can only add that he said that the same phrase in 2 places, although each has a different reference meaning, was open to being seen as ‘connected’
ROG:
Please call the Peterborough number I posted and get the expert to tell you exactly what did and did not get kept when the old regs changed to the present ones - I will guarantee you that he will say that what you refer to did not.Don’t take my word for it - call the experts
hi Rog
the have changed
on the harmonisation of certain social legislation relating to road transport and amending
Council Regulations (EEC) No 3821/85 and (EC) No 2135/98 and repealing Council Regulation
u No 3820/85[/u]
[/quote]the first regs that have being underlined have been harmonised(harmonise - go together)and the other one as being (repealing is the removal or reversal of a law. This is generally done when a law is no longer effective)
ROG:
Scotchbaz:
:idea: Because this thread has already been taken to subliminal levels of stupidity by people who really should know better, why not get Harry Hill to sort this outWhich is right?
Six days max or as many as you want?
There’s only one way to find out……FIGHT
Or call an expert
Is your constant reference to this so called expert, an underhand way of saying you are not as sure about the regs yourself now IMHO VOSA are not experts (in exactly the same way as neither are clerks of the court or JP’s at a Magistrates Court), the barristers who prosecute, if you kill someone while breaking the law, will be 
Coffeeholic:
Scotchbaz:
Okay, working under the assumption that you’re driving a UK vehicle/ vehicle combination over 3.5 tonnes, the rules have not changed since I have been driving that much, and as stated in the “Rules on Drivers’ Hours and Tachographs (Goods vehicles in the UK and Europe)”, the following can be found, in black and white. “GB domestic limit (a maximum of 10 hours of driving a day) must always be obeyed. But at any time when you are actually driving under the EU rules you must obey all the rules on EU driving limits.” And to clarify; “Day: The day is the 24-hour period beginning with the start of duty time.”.You are mixing two sets of rules there, the EU rules, which the majority of us work under, do not define a limit on the number of driving hours in a calendar 24 hours.
You are surely not suggesting that if a driver starts at 06:00 Monday and works until 18:00, doing 10 hours driving in that time there is no point him taking a 9 hour daily rest because he can’t drive again until 06:00? Are you, because it reads that way?
Not at all, what I am merely alluding to is the fact that there exists a definition of what 24 hours are, to the end that even a primary school child could understand (I just used the reference in the regs to point this glaringly obvious fact out in the simplest form possible, in the absence of any children’s school book, which I don’t readily have to hand). 
I sincerely apologise for any confusion I may have caused.
Coffeeholic:
tachograph:
the term “period of 24 hours”, which refers to any period of that duration which commences at the time when the driver activates the tachograph following a weekly or daily rest period.
Not that it really matters because it’s been amended by far more recent regulations anyway
Has it though? While it is true the regulations have been amended, the term 24-hour period remains in the new regulations and that term has been defined by the court. They haven’t used a new term and by sticking with this term does that not mean the court ruling will indeed still apply? If the intention had been to alter the regulations so this ruling no longer applied surely they would have removed the term from the new regulations, they didn’t so…?
But does it really matter, unless I’ve missed something that article only defines the term “period of 24 hours” within the meaning of Regulation Nos 3820/85 which has now been repealed by (EC) 561/2006.
Also the term “period of 24 hours” is mentioned only in the daily rest requirements of Article 8.2 (EC) 561/2006.
Article 8.6 (EC) 561/2006 refers to the weekly rest requirement as being no later than six “24-hour periods” from the last weekly rest, call me pedantic but that is a different term and it appears to be a very specific term that’s been defined in that article.
tachograph:
Coffeeholic:
tachograph:
the term “period of 24 hours”, which refers to any period of that duration which commences at the time when the driver activates the tachograph following a weekly or daily rest period.
Not that it really matters because it’s been amended by far more recent regulations anyway
Has it though? While it is true the regulations have been amended, the term 24-hour period remains in the new regulations and that term has been defined by the court. They haven’t used a new term and by sticking with this term does that not mean the court ruling will indeed still apply? If the intention had been to alter the regulations so this ruling no longer applied surely they would have removed the term from the new regulations, they didn’t so…?
But does it really matter, unless I’ve missed something that article only defines the term “period of 24 hours” within the meaning of Regulation Nos 3820/85 which has now been repealed by (EC) 561/2006.
Also the term “period of 24 hours” is mentioned only in the daily rest requirements of Article 8.2 (EC) 561/2006.
Article 8.6 (EC) 561/2006 refers to the weekly rest requirement as being no later than six “24-hour periods” from the last weekly rest, call me pedantic but that is a different term and it appears to be a very specific term that’s been defined in that article.
hi mate
i was looking at the reg and it says
- Within each period of 24 hours after the end of the
previous daily rest period or weekly rest period a driver shall
have taken a new daily rest period.
and if it says that which i have underlined does that not mean within any time in the 24 hour period
going on that you could do 12 hours work take a rest of 9 hour and if so you could start the new day after only 21 hours ans as you have had the required rest you start the day again
Within six 24 hour periods from the end of the last weekly rest period, a driver will extend a daily rest period into either: a regular weekly rest period of at least 45 hours, or a reduced weekly rest of less than 45 hours, but at least 24 hours (any reductions must be compensated for). In any two consecutive weeks, a driver shall take at least two weekly rest periods, or one regular weekly rest period of at least 24 hours.
Okay, so here’s how I see it;
I start work at 0500 on Monday until 1500, take 9 off (that’s ONE 24 hour period)
Again, I start work at 0000 and finish at 1500, take 12 off (that’s my second 24 hour period)
Ad infinitum or at least until the end of my sixth 24 hour period, I must then take my weekly rest period.
Why the hell is that so hard to understand
delboytwo:
i think if you look at this you will see that you can in theory use as many charts as you can as long as you meet thisWithin each period of 24 hours after the end of the
previous daily rest period or weekly rest period a driver shall
have taken a new daily rest period.so in looking at the above as long as you have a rest of 9 or 11 hours within each period of 24 hours,and as the 24 hour period rests once you have completed your required rest of 9 or 11 hours you start a you period of 24 hours
this is an example of how you mite use Severn charts in six days
Ok, i’ll have a go at disecting it
full rest before shift 45 hours
Mon 6 m till 2 pm
Thats one 24 hour period goneTues 6 am till 2 pm
Thats a second 24 hour period gone
wed 6 am till 2 pm
Thats a third 24 hour period gone
Thurs 6 am till 2 pm
Thats a fourth 24 hour period gone
Fri 6 am till 2 pm
Thats a fifth 24 hour period gone
sat 6 am till 9 am
And this is your sixth 24 hour period
than the driver goes home and and the boss ring him up and the other driver that does form 6 pm till 9 pm as not turned up and the driver does the run for him and it only takes 3 hour all in
sat 6 pm till 9 pm goes home
This might be possible. Because there have been no rest reductions and this Saturday shift which started at 6 am can run until 9pm .So it is (or could be)a resumption of the earlier days duties. It would also go on the same card (if a chart was used) and be subject to filling in the missing duties between 9am and 6pm. Either manually on the back of a card or manually on a digitach to show either rest period for the 9 hours or POA. The only reason i say ‘might’ is that you will be changing your record of that day to make it longer than it was. You are not technically starting a new 24 hour period, shift, day or what ever(at 6pm) as you do not have one available to you. All that is available to you is the option to use up the rest of your last days work that week. Either way it would only be six records.
as a rest of 33 hours and then can make up his rest next week cos the following weeks shift is only five days long and he would finish at 2 pm Fri and therefore have enough rest to compensate for the reduced rest last week
[/quote]