ONCE MORE, WITH REFERANCE TO THE ORIGINAL QUESTION, SIX LEGAL, SEVEN ILLEGAL.
Scotchbaz:
Within six 24 hour periods from the end of the last weekly rest period, a driver will extend a daily rest period into either: a regular weekly rest period of at least 45 hours, or a reduced weekly rest of less than 45 hours, but at least 24 hours (any reductions must be compensated for). In any two consecutive weeks, a driver shall take at least two weekly rest periods, or one regular weekly rest period of at least 24 hours.
Okay, so here’s how I see it;
I start work at 0500 on Monday until 1500, take 9 off (that’s ONE 24 hour period)
Again, I start work at 0000 and finish at 1500, take 12 off (that’s my second 24 hour period)
Ad infinitum or at least until the end of my sixth 24 hour period, I must then take my weekly rest period.Why the hell is that so hard to understand
It’s not hard to understand but as you say yourself it’s the way you see it, what we’re talking about here is the law not just the way you see things.
Back it up with something more than how you choose to interpret things and it will likely be taken more seriously 
tachograph:
But does it really matter, unless I’ve missed something that article only defines the term “period of 24 hours” within the meaning of Regulation Nos 3820/85 which has now been repealed by (EC) 561/2006.Also the term “period of 24 hours” is mentioned only in the daily rest requirements of Article 8.2 (EC) 561/2006.
Article 8.6 (EC) 561/2006 refers to the weekly rest requirement as being no later than six “24-hour periods” from the last weekly rest, call me pedantic but that is a different term and it appears to be a very specific term that’s been defined in that article.
Not so. You missed something. The article refers specifically to (EC) 3821/85 also. Infact it mentions 3821 more times than 3820. 3821/85 has not been scrapped at all, in fact it was ‘harmonised’ with the 98 regs and amended to create the new 2006 regs, Note the words ‘harmonise’ and amended’. Nothing about it at all is scrapped or repealed. The only thing repealed was 3820/85.
can i ask this if you have only 6x24 hours and can only do 6x24 hours,
then if a driver works on a job that the driver does regularly I.E 6 am till 5 pm and work 6 days every other week, does that mean if the boss rings the driver up and asks him to start work early and let say 4 am on Tues would that not make the driver put two cards in on the same day
and if you can only put one card in in 24 hours that would mean that if a driver starts work on a Mon at 6 am he would not be able to start is shift on Tues till 6 am even if the driver as satisfied is rest requirement, and if i am not mistaken there is no regs saying that a driver as to work a max day of 24 hours before he starts is next 24 day
Mike-C:
Not so. You missed something. The article refers specifically to (EC) 3821/85 also. Infact it mentions 3821 more times than 3820. 3821/85 has not been scrapped at all, in fact it was ‘harmonised’ with the 98 regs and amended to create the new 2006 regs, Note the words ‘harmonise’ and amended’. Nothing about it at all is scrapped or repealed. The only thing repealed was 3820/85.
I know 3821/85 hasn’t been repealed but the article specifically mentions article 8(1) 3820/85.
Anyway before posting I did a search of 3821/85 for the term “period of 24 hours” and it didn’t show up.
27 By its second question the national court asks whether the concept of “day”, within the meaning of Regulations Nos 3820/85 and 3821/85, coincides with that of the “period of 24 hours” referred to in Article 8(1) of Regulation No 3820/85, and when it commences.
tachograph:
Back it up with something more than how you choose to interpret things and it will likely be taken more seriously
Pot and kettle spring to mind 
delboytwo:
can i ask this if you have only 6x24 hours and can only do 6x24 hours,then if a driver works on a job that the driver does regularly I.E 6 am till 5 pm and work 6 days every other week, does that mean if the boss rings the driver up and asks him to start work early and let say 4 am on Tues would that not make the driver put two cards in on the same day
and if you can only put one card in in 24 hours that would mean that if a driver starts work on a Mon at 6 am he would not be able to start is shift on Tues till 6 am even if the driver as satisfied is rest requirement, and if i am not mistaken there is no regs saying that a driver as to work a max day of 24 hours before he starts is next 24 day
No Del, no-ones questioning that you can start a new shift as soon as the daily rest is completed.
What they’re saying is that a shift of any length plus the daily rest is regarded as a “24-hour period” for the weekly rest requirements even if it totals less than 24 hours.
They’re wrong
tachograph:
delboytwo:
can i ask this if you have only 6x24 hours and can only do 6x24 hours,then if a driver works on a job that the driver does regularly I.E 6 am till 5 pm and work 6 days every other week, does that mean if the boss rings the driver up and asks him to start work early and let say 4 am on Tues would that not make the driver put two cards in on the same day
and if you can only put one card in in 24 hours that would mean that if a driver starts work on a Mon at 6 am he would not be able to start is shift on Tues till 6 am even if the driver as satisfied is rest requirement, and if i am not mistaken there is no regs saying that a driver as to work a max day of 24 hours before he starts is next 24 day
No Del, no-ones questioning that you can start a new shift as soon as the daily rest is completed.
What they’re saying is that a shift of any length plus the daily rest is regarded as a “24-hour period” for the weekly rest requirements even if it totals less than 24 hours.They’re wrong
i would agree with you
cos if you can only do 6x24 hour days why is this bit in the regs
daily driving time’ means the total accumulated driving
time between the end of one daily rest period and the
beginning of the following daily rest period or between a
daily rest period and a weekly rest period
and it does not say 24 hour in that bit it says between rests
cos if you drove for 9 hour and had a rest of 11 that would be 20 hours going on the above i would be able to do anthor 9 hours driving so in fact starting a fresh day
tachograph:
What they’re saying is that a shift of any length plus the daily rest is regarded as a “24-hour period” for the weekly rest requirements even if it totals less than 24 hours.
I can see where you are coming from but I’m still having trouble getting my head around this. The regulations state when a 24 hour period begins and when it ends, I don’t think anyone is disagreeing that a new 24-hour period begins when you resume work after a rest, and also says that after 6 periods you have a weekly rest. I don’t see anywhere in the regulations it saying it is a different 24-hour period for calculating when weekly rest is due. I know about the 144 hours thing VOSA talk about but that isn’t in the official regs.
All I know is I wouldn’t like to be arguing this point with a Gendarme, Red Cap, Carabinieri or Polizei and I would argue, and have on many occasions successfully, any point in the tacho regs with them. The problem is you cannot point out the 144 hour thing in the regulations and the VOSA booklet isn’t likely to wash with them over the water.
delboytwo:
cos if you drove for 9 hour and had a rest of 11 that would be 20 hours going on the above i would be able to do anthor 9 hours driving so in fact starting a fresh day
And that Del is the crux of this discussion. One side saying you are starting a fresh day/shift/24-hour period and after 6 of them you need a rest because the regulations say 6 and rest, while the other side are saying it doesn’t matter how many you start as long as you begin a weekly rest 144 hours after you finished your last one. 
Coffeeholic:
tachograph:
What they’re saying is that a shift of any length plus the daily rest is regarded as a “24-hour period” for the weekly rest requirements even if it totals less than 24 hours.I can see where you are coming from but I’m still having trouble getting my head around this. The regulations state when a 24 hour period begins and when it ends, I don’t think anyone is disagreeing that a new 24-hour period begins when you resume work after a rest, and also says that after 6 periods you have a weekly rest. I don’t see anywhere in the regulations it saying it is a different 24-hour period for calculating when weekly rest is due. I know about the 144 hours thing VOSA talk about but that isn’t in the official regs.
All I know is I wouldn’t like to be arguing this point with a Gendarme, Red Cap, Carabinieri or Polizei and I would argue, and have on many occasions successfully, any point in the tacho regs with them. The problem is you cannot point out the 144 hour thing in the regulations and the VOSA booklet isn’t likely to wash with them over the water.
I agree the whole discussion boils down to what is meant by a “period of 24 hours”.
Some people seem to see it as a term to be applied to the time between daily rest periods, whereas for the daily rest periods I see it as the maximum period of time you’re allowed before completing a daily rest, I can’t see any reason to view it any other way therefore to me a “period of 24 hours” is exactly that …24 hours, no more and no less
Hence 6 x 24 hours = 144 hours.
As you say the official regulations make no mention of the 144 hours, but that only really comes into it as a way of positively defining the 6 x 24 hours, well for me it does anyway,
Interesting discussion though, even if it has gone off a bit in places
Interesting discussion though, even if it has gone off a bit in places
You think!!! 
I have had to read this thread 5 times to try and get my head round everyone’s differing viewpoints!!
I had no idea when i asked the original question we would get to nearly 200 replies
BuzzardBoy:
Interesting discussion though, even if it has gone off a bit in places
You think!!!
I have had to read this thread 5 times to try and get my head round everyone’s differing viewpoints!!
I had no idea when i asked the original question we would get to nearly 200 replies
Glad to be of service 
, this is fun. By the way, did I happen to mention that within six 24 hour rest periods you have to take a regular weekly rest period 
In the begining there was the word and the word was, within 
On the subject of ‘what is 24 hours’ taken on it’s own.
We could have 24 hours meaning exactly that but we cannot then chop that period short and call it that - that would be a double standard.
If, for arguments sake, we say that the first 24 hours starts when we start the first working period of a new week after a weekly rest - fine, no problem, bur we cannot then say that it is a new 24 hour when we start the second daily duty period if the first 24 hours has not ended.
To look at this in the context of a normal week of 7 days for the average joe - if I said that it is now Monday at 2200 but I want to call it Tuesday 0000 - they would think I am mad
Going back to the regs
We cannot say that 6 X 24 hours means that the 24 hours in that are exactly 24 hours but the 24 hours in the other bit are not exactly 24 hours - if we want to say that 24 hours means just that, then we must keep the same for both parts.
Exactly 24 hours cannot mean 23 hours etc.
The only way that I can see say, Monday overlapping Tuesday, is if we compare different time zones.
Scotchbaz:
By the way, did I happen to mention that within six 24 hour rest periods you have to take a regular weekly rest period
go on then, what reg is that one
ROG:
Scotchbaz:
By the way, did I happen to mention that within six 24 hour rest periods you have to take a regular weekly rest periodgo on then, what reg is that one
Road Transport (Working Time) Guidance, Annex B - Comparison with the European drivers’ hours rules.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/freight/road/workingtime/rdtransportworkingtimeguidance?page=12#a1011
Six, ha ha ha
Scotchbaz:
By the way, did I happen to mention that within six 24 hour rest periods you have to take a regular weekly rest period
ROG:
go on then, what reg is that one
Scotchbaz:
Road Transport (Working Time) Guidance, Annex B - Comparison with the European drivers’ hours rules.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/freight/road/workingtime/rdtransportworkingtimeguidance?page=12#a1011
Six, ha ha ha
I would say that the EU written law would take precidence over what someone from the DfT (assuming) wrote.
It’s like the comparisson between the VOSA drivers hours handbook and the actual regs - the regs take precidence
ROG:
Scotchbaz:
By the way, did I happen to mention that within six 24 hour rest periods you have to take a regular weekly rest periodROG:
go on then, what reg is that oneScotchbaz:
Road Transport (Working Time) Guidance, Annex B - Comparison with the European drivers’ hours rules.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/freight/road/workingtime/rdtransportworkingtimeguidance?page=12#a1011
Six, ha ha haI would say that the EU written law would take precidence over what someone from the DfT (assuming) wrote.
It’s like the comparisson between the VOSA drivers hours handbook and the actual regs - the regs take precidence
Says the guy who tells me to phone an “expert” at VOSA
Is it really so hard to admit that your wrong Your argument is so full of holes it is now resembling a colander
Scotchbaz:
Says the guy who tells me to phone an “expert” at VOSA
It was that expert who told me just that
Scotchbaz:
By the way, did I happen to mention that within six 24 hour rest periods you have to take a regular weekly rest period
You didn’t mention it and you really should have kept it that way because it doesn’t say that. 
The word within is used when talking about daily rest but not for weekly rest. THERE are the regulations and Article 8.6 is the bit that counts.