ROG:
Scotchbaz:
Says the guy who tells me to phone an “expert” at VOSA
It was that expert who told me just that
You do make me laugh , are you related to Baldrick by any chance 
Do you have a cunning plan to get anyone you advise out of trouble
I learned that if there is an expert than can be called upon, then call them - better than second guessing, especially where the law is concerned.
I am crap at reading law, coffeeholic will definitely agree with that
Questions get asked about Licence issues - what do I do? - call DVLA and get the right answer 
I would suggest calling upon an expert to substantiate what is being said about the use of ‘7 cards’ or it just comes down to putting ones own take on the regs
This then ends up with a ‘personal’ take on what is there instead of the legal reality
Coffeeholic:
Scotchbaz:
By the way, did I happen to mention that within six 24 hour rest periods you have to take a regular weekly rest period
In the begining there was the word and the word was, within
You didn’t mention it and you really should have kept it that way because it doesn’t say that.
The word within is used when talking about daily rest but not for weekly rest. THERE are the regulations and Article 8.6 is the bit that counts.
Oh really “Coffeholic” you do surprise me, the DFT is a governmental body which oversees many pieces of legislation on the roads of the United Kingdom, they interpret and enact rules for the safety of people in the UK when using all forms of transport in the UK. Or is it just a quango with no teeth and no power? Afterall, VOSA is an agency of DFT, so that would make VOSA what, exactly?
ROG:
I would suggest calling upon an expert to substantiate what is being said about the use of ‘7 cards’ or it just comes down to putting ones own take on the regsThis then ends up with a ‘personal’ take on what is there instead of the legal reality
We’ve already had the expert VOSA take posted on this thread and by a VOSA expert that regularly posts on here, whose advice can be trusted and who knows more about the regulations than any other person who posts on here, not some random ‘expert’ on the end of a phone.
Scotchbaz:
Oh really “Coffeholic” you do surprise me, the DFT is a governmental body which oversees many pieces of legislation on the roads of the United Kingdom, they interpret and enact rules for the safety of people in the UK when using all forms of transport in the UK. Or is it just a quango with no teeth and no power? Afterall, VOSA is an agency of DFT, so that would make VOSA what, exactly?
If you look at the first page of the link in your post you’ll see that it’s for guidance only and makes no claim to be an authoritative statement of law.
Guidance on the Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005
This booklet provides guidance on the limits on working time provided for in the Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005. It gives general guidance only and should not be regarded as a complete or authoritative statement of the law.
Scotchbaz:
Coffeeholic:
Scotchbaz:
By the way, did I happen to mention that within six 24 hour rest periods you have to take a regular weekly rest period
You didn’t mention it and you really should have kept it that way because it doesn’t say that.
The word within is used when talking about daily rest but not for weekly rest. THERE are the regulations and Article 8.6 is the bit that counts.
Oh really “Coffeholic” you do surprise me, the DFT is a governmental body which oversees many pieces of legislation on the roads of the United Kingdom, they interpret and enact rules for the safety of people in the UK when using all forms of transport in the UK. Or is it just a quango with no teeth and no power? Afterall, VOSA is an agency of DFT, so that would make VOSA what, exactly?
That would make VOSA the organisation which enforces Regulation (EC) 561/2006, which was implemented by the UK on 11th April 2007, and those regulations do not say a weekly rest period must start ‘within’ 6 x 24 hour periods.
You posted a link to a section of the DfT site dealing with the the WTD for mobile workers and a page comparing the WTD to the tacho regs on which someone has obviously used the wrong terminology, it’s obviously wrong because that term does not appear in the official regulation in reference to weekly rest.
Which do you think you may be prosecuted under for contravening the weekly rest regulations, Regulation (EC) 561/2006 or an advice page on the internet? 
You really need to get over this misconception you have that EU regulations don’t count or are trumped by domestic regulations in this country.
OK, there seems to be some question as to the ‘expert’ I spoke to -
Please phone the number below and ask for the tacho regulations expert on drivers hours at -
Peterborough GVTS, Saville Road, Westwood, Peterborough, PE3 6TL
Tel: 01733 263 423
The lady that passed me onto this chap said that I was lucky because he is an EXPERT on the regs and when I spoke to him, he confirmed that he is office based there for when those out on the road (I assume he meant those at the roadside stop checks) call in with queries that they are not sure of.
He was very polite and took the time to ensure that I had got the correct info. He asked me to tell it back to him - just to make sure
I am not getting involved in the quiz The correct answer was given about 17 pages back 
But Rog has a tame expert who has a different slant on the interpretation of the rules. There cannot be such a person (expert), the rules are written and agreed by all the member states of the EU. They are then published and agreed by the member states.
The expert has the same agreements, derogations, dispensations and case law as we all have to live and die by. As anyone with a computer, a Croners manual or even a trade magazine has access to.
I have read many reports from experts, only to find that they are putting their personal take on the interpretation of the subject or rules.
Scotchbaz:
BuzzardBoy:
Interesting discussion though, even if it has gone off a bit in places
You think!!!
I have had to read this thread 5 times to try and get my head round everyone’s differing viewpoints!!
I had no idea when i asked the original question we would get to nearly 200 repliesGlad to be of service
There is a massive difference between the 2 words within and after.
11 hours rest within each period of 24 hours after the end of the
previous daily rest period or weekly rest period a driver shall
have taken a new daily rest period.
Weekly rest after 6 working periods.
A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six
24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest period.
Wheel Nut:
But Rog has a tame expert who has a different slant on the interpretation of the rules.
Does that mean that the ‘other one who belongs to the same organisation’ who posted the same answer on here is also incorrect
ROG:
Wheel Nut:
But Rog has a tame expert who has a different slant on the interpretation of the rules.Does that mean that the ‘other one who belongs to the same organisation’ who posted the same answer on here is also incorrect
It depends which hymn sheet he is singing from,
The Official Journal of the European Union
OR
The Unofficial Journal of Rog’s Expert
I found this paragraph within the official document. I think it says it all really.
Effective and uniform enforcement of those provisions is
desirable if their objectives are to be achieved and the
application of the rules is not to be brought into
disrepute. Therefore, a clearer and simpler set of rules is
needed, which will be more easily understood, interpreted
and applied by the road transport industry and the
enforcement authorities.
Are you saying that if ALL of VOSA are ‘singing from the same hymnsheet’ and saying the same thing then they are ALL wrong
To find out if they are, then a call posing the same question to many VOSA offices would determine that
ROG:
Wheel Nut:
But Rog has a tame expert who has a different slant on the interpretation of the rules.Does that mean that the ‘other one who belongs to the same organisation’ who posted the same answer on here is also incorrect
No, given his job within VOSA you can be pretty sure that is their current take on it but he may not be right if in the future it again goes before the courts for a determination of what the term ‘six 24-hour periods’ means and they rule as before.
Things do change, for example at the last change to the rules VOSA issued a poster explaining the rules, designed by someone who is not unknown to us. However, a correction had to be issued to the section on interrupted rest as their initial take on it was different from the rest of Europe.
ROG:
…the ‘other one who belongs to the same organisation’ …
They may be one and the same, who knows? 
Coffeeholic:
if in the future it again goes before the courts for a determination of what the term ‘six 24-hour periods’ means and they rule as before.
Totally agree - courts have the power to put specific definitions on contentious issues but until such time we can only adhere to what the enforement agencies say is the correct definition unless any of us wishes to challenge that definition in a court.
Saying what we think it should be without challenging it in a court is a wasted exercise.
If, in the future, it is determined by a court that 7 seperate duty times (shifts) between daily/weekly rest periods cannot be done then those that have already done so will not get prosecuted as the current enforement agency says they can be done.
The definition currently used will only change from the date of a court ruling saying otherwise.
Coffeeholic:
ROG:
…the ‘other one who belongs to the same organisation’ …They may be one and the same, who knows?
I do - different people, different parts of the UK, same agency.
bit off topic -
Anyone going to any of the truckfest type meets across the UK this year will be able to speak to members of that agency as they will be there along with the DSA.
DSA will be concentrating on the driver cpc questions and VOSA will be answering questions on other issues - such as this one will be my guess
BuzzardBoy:
Interesting discussion though, even if it has gone off a bit in places
You think!!!
I have had to read this thread 5 times to try and get my head round everyone’s differing viewpoints!!
I had no idea when i asked the original question we would get to nearly 200 replies
Unfortunatley you have misadvertently been given the wrong advice by well meaning members. They have based their advice on the misinterpretation of the current EU regs by the DfT, this has been compounded by the advice offered in the VOSA handbook on drivers hours, who will have taken guidance from the DfT.
Your friend as it stands could face a fine/prosecution and/or being parked up if he is stopped abroad. On the bright side if he is stopped here he should be fine.
I’d assume that next week will be a flurry of activity by the ‘powers that be’ checking the legislation again. I’d expect a clarification of what i’ve said here anytime soon.
And lets not forget the disclaimer…(for anyone taking advice from guidance)
Disclaimer
VOSA makes every effort to ensure that the information published on this web site is accurate. However, we cannot accept any liability for the accuracy of content. Visitors who rely on this information do so at their own risk. For more information please read our Terms and Conditions.
just to let you know i have sent an email to one of the TC at vosa to see what the stance on the regs mean to the it will be interesting what there make of it.
will post info if any comes though
Mike-C:
Unfortunatley you have misadvertently been given the wrong advice by well meaning members. They have based their advice on the misinterpretation of the current EU regs by the DfT, this has been compounded by the advice offered in the VOSA handbook on drivers hours, who will have taken guidance from the DfT.
Your friend as it stands could face a fine/prosecution and/or being parked up if he is stopped abroad. On the bright side if he is stopped here he should be fine.
Lets hope i don’t have to eat my words here, another development !!!
Taken from The Transport Manager’s and Operators Handbook 2006 By David Lowe.
Driving limits
Maximum weekly driving 6 daily driving shifts *
*NB; The High Court ruled in 1988 that drivers can exceed the maximum of six daily driving shifts within six days as specified in the EU rules provided they do not exceed the maximum number of hours permitted in six consecutive driving periods.
Weekly Rest Period
Once each fixed week (and after six driving shifts - see note on p82) a daily rest period must be combined with a weekly rest period to provide a weekly rest period totalling 45 hours.
Now i’ve searched high and low and the only refernce to a 1988 court ruling i can find is here…
dft.gov.uk/consultations/arc … 916?page=3
Kelly v Schuman (at the bottom of the page), whether this is the same ruling as refered to above i’ve no idea as i can’t seem to find any more references to either.
There are more references to clarifications of driving periods like here…
eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex … 13:EN:HTML
These confirm what i am saying is correct as to an interpretation of the meaning ‘24 hour period’. And they are dated 1994, and still applicable to the current Regs. However more information is needed on the 1998 ruling mentioned above, as this does now throw all we understand into more confusion. I’m hanging up my barristers wig and waiting for the outcome !!!
Mike-C:
I’d assume that next week will be a flurry of activity by the ‘powers that be’ checking the legislation again. I’d expect a clarification of what i’ve said here anytime soon.
I must of got this bit right, eh? !!!
Mike-c ,I have been given a answer from
one of the men in green(german -police);
HIS ANSWER WAS:
as long as the working and driveing hours
was in order and all rest periods as well
then it was possible, however who wishes to
try this out on the european enforcement
officers as any delay due to disagreements
may mean finacal loss, I will keep to the
answer i gave early; as that way i eveade
any problems that may arise,