7 Cards in One Week... Legal or Not? [MERGED]

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
221

delboytwo:
just to let you know i have sent an email to one of the TC at vosa to see what the stance on the regs mean to the it will be interesting what there make of it. :stuck_out_tongue:

will post info if any comes though :wink:

I doubt you will get any reply if you think the independant traffic commisioners work for VOSA.

VOSA
A delivery focused directorate that provides effective and efficient delivery of front line enforcement, testing, licensing services and administration to support that activity. The directorate also provides administrative support to the Traffic Commissioners in their role as regulator.

A wide range of activities are carried out to check compliance of roadworthiness and road traffic legislation at the road side, operators’ premises, MOT garages and statutory inspections of vehicles in our network of GVTSs and designated premises. To support the work of our enforcement activities, a specialist group is available for the more complex investigations arising from serious non compliance

The directorate is created to provide a management structure that allows the front line staff to focus solely on delivery of road safety services. All supporting services are managed by dedicated teams both within, and external to, the directorate.

At least, we have access to the same documents.

222

Wheel Nut:

delboytwo:
just to let you know i have sent an email to one of the TC at vosa to see what the stance on the regs mean to the it will be interesting what there make of it. :stuck_out_tongue:

will post info if any comes though :wink:

I doubt you will get any reply if you think the independant traffic commisioners work for VOSA.

VOSA
A delivery focused directorate that provides effective and efficient delivery of front line enforcement, testing, licensing services and administration to support that activity. The directorate also provides administrative support to the Traffic Commissioners in their role as regulator.

A wide range of activities are carried out to check compliance of roadworthiness and road traffic legislation at the road side, operators’ premises, MOT garages and statutory inspections of vehicles in our network of GVTSs and designated premises. To support the work of our enforcement activities, a specialist group is available for the more complex investigations arising from serious non compliance

The directorate is created to provide a management structure that allows the front line staff to focus solely on delivery of road safety services. All supporting services are managed by dedicated teams both within, and external to, the directorate.

At least, we have access to the same documents.

if you read this bit you will see that if we as drivers do any thing wrong we would have to answer to the
TC

The seven Traffic Commissioners are appointed by the Secretary of State for the Transport and have responsibility in their area for:

The licensing of the operators of Heavy Goods Vehicles (HGVs) and of buses and coaches (Public Service Vehicles or PSVs).

The registration of local bus services.

Granting vocational licences and taking action against drivers of HGVs and PSVs.

223

Oh [zb], I just realised that this thread was shifted to SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM and not BULLY’S TRUCKSTOP BAR. Oh I feel a bit silly I do… :blush: :stuck_out_tongue: :wink: :unamused: :laughing: :open_mouth: :confused: :grimacing: :exclamation:

224

What is the intention of the EU regulations in article 8?
After all, they did not write them for ‘fun’!!

To my mind, they were written with the intention of preventing a driver from working too long in a given time period.

It seems they had 2 tasks. The first was to make sure the driver had a long rest in every week (WEEKLY REST) and the second, to make sure the driver had a reasonable rest every day (DAILY REST).

So how do they ensure the first task, the WEEKLY rest?
They decide on a time period into which it must fit, they chose 7 full days, one week or 168 hours.
They then choose the maximum that can be continuously done between weekly rest periods in that time period; they chose 6 full days or 144 hours.
They then choose the minimum continuous rest that must be done within that time period; they chose 45 hours as a standard but allow it to be reduced to 24 hours every so often.
They then had to make a regulation, which is article 8. 6.

A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six 24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest period.

Which allows for the minimum of 24 hours weekly rest to be taken (if available).

Now to the second task, the DAILY rest.
They decide on a time period into which it must fit, they chose 24 hours.
They then choose the continuous minimum rest that must be done within that time period; they chose 11 hours as a standard but allow it to be reduced to 9 hours so many times.
They then had to make a regulation, which is article 8. 2.

Within each period of 24 hours after the end of the previous daily rest period or weekly rest period a driver shall have taken a new daily rest period.

From the intentions it now becomes clear that they mean for a driver to have a minimum rest period within certain time periods.

If the intention had been to stipulate a set amount of daily periods within the parameters of the weekly period then would have been quite easy to put in another separate regulation, which said —
A maximum of 5 daily rest periods can be used between weekly rest periods.
But would that make sense in relation to what the intent is?

If a driver fits more daily rest periods into the maximum allowed six day period then that driver is working less and having more rest than a driver who works longer hours and fits the minimum amount of daily rest periods into the same time frame so it would not make much sense to force an early weekly rest onto a driver who was already resting more.

Leaving driving, other work, POA and breaks to one side for this example;
Driver ‘A’ does 15 hours duty & 9 hours daily rest for the first 3 days then 13 hours duty for the following 3 days, which includes 2 daily rests of 11 hours.
A weekly rest would follow the last 13 hours of duty time.
Between the weekly rests, that is a total of 84 hours duty over 6 daily duty periods with 5 daily rests totalling 49 hours.
Compare that with driver ‘B’ who does 7 lots of 11 hours duty time and follows each one with 11 hours of daily rest.
A weekly rest would follow the last 11 hours of duty time.
Between the weekly rests, that is a total of 77 hours duty over 7 daily duty periods with 6 daily rests totalling 66 hours.

Why would the authorities want to make driver ‘B’ take an early weekly rest when he has already had more rest than driver ‘A’?

I believe that the authorities have looked at the intentions of what the regulations are trying to do and interpreted the regulations (correctly in my opinion) to fit the intent.

They have, after all, done what the regulations intended. They have ensured that minimum daily and weekly rests have been taken during the period of one week, 7 days or 168 hours.

225

ROG:
So how do they ensure the first task, the WEEKLY rest?
They decide on a time period into which it must fit, they chose 7 full days, one week or 168 hours.

No time period is defined. Ok, we can agree to differ about the interpretation of 24 hour period, but as such that is the only constraint. 7days, one week or 168 hours is not mentioned at all.

ROG:
They then choose the maximum that can be continuously done between weekly rest periods in that time period; they chose 6 full days or 144 hours.
They then choose the minimum continuous rest that must be done within that time period; they chose 45 hours as a standard but allow it to be reduced to 24 hours every so often.

No they chose no later than 6 24 hour periods.Also suggesting the weekly rest can be reduced, this would give the clue that six 24 hour periods might be of different lenght.

ROG:
They then had to make a regulation, which is article 8. 6.

A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six 24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest period.

Which allows for the minimum of 24 hours weekly rest to be taken (if available).

And as you ask what is the intent of the regs, if you read all of them and the accompanying notes :smiley:
You will see there is no interest, for reasons of road safety in allowing for more driving shifts inbetween weekly rests.
The meaning of 24 hour period is unquestionable, as its clearly defined. And actually it was defined around the same time as the skills coaches judgement, and for the same regs, and is equally still valid :wink:
Also a clue as to why the wording has changed may be found in the change of split daily rests. If it was left as ‘six daily driving periods’, the interuption of a part daily rest causes confusion. A 24 hour period commences everytime you start work after a weekly or daily rest. It really can be no clearer !!

226

ROG

So how do they ensure the first task, the WEEKLY rest?
They decide on a time period into which it must fit, they chose 7 full days, one week or 168 hours.

Mike-C

No time period is defined. Ok, we can agree to differ about the interpretation of 24 hour period, but as such that is the only constraint. 7days, one week or 168 hours is not mentioned at all.

in the regs it says

(i) ‘a week’ means the period of time between 00.00 on
Monday and 24.00 on Sunday;

227

delboytwo:

ROG

So how do they ensure the first task, the WEEKLY rest?
They decide on a time period into which it must fit, they chose 7 full days, one week or 168 hours.

Mike-C

No time period is defined. Ok, we can agree to differ about the interpretation of 24 hour period, but as such that is the only constraint. 7days, one week or 168 hours is not mentioned at all.

in the regs it says

(i) ‘a week’ means the period of time between 00.00 on
Monday and 24.00 on Sunday;

Thats the definition of a ‘fixed week’ Del. Apart from it saying nothing should preclude a driver starting his week on any day he likes.

228

How did a week come about?

lets see - what is the maximum, using a minimum reduced weekly rest at the end of the maximum working week, that a driver can do?

I think it’s 6 X 24 hours and a 24 hour weekly rest - hmmm… that’s a week or 7 days or 168 hours - or have I got that wrong?

They have, by doing the above, set a maximum time frame.

ROG:
Leaving driving, other work, POA and breaks to one side for this example;
Driver ‘A’ does 15 hours duty & 9 hours daily rest for the first 3 days then 13 hours duty for the following 3 days, which includes 2 daily rests of 11 hours.
A weekly rest would follow the last 13 hours of duty time.
Between the weekly rests, that is a total of 84 hours duty over 6 daily duty periods with 5 daily rests totalling 49 hours.
Compare that with driver ‘B’ who does 7 lots of 11 hours duty time and follows each one with 11 hours of daily rest.
A weekly rest would follow the last 11 hours of duty time.
Between the weekly rests, that is a total of 77 hours duty over 7 daily duty periods with 6 daily rests totalling 66 hours.

Why would the authorities want to make driver ‘B’ take an early weekly rest when he has already had more rest than driver ‘A’?

Got an answer for this? :wink:

Unless anyone can find an official who says different, then what driver ‘B’ does in the quote above is perfectly legal.

229

ROG:
How did a week come about?

lets see - what is the maximum, using a minimum reduced weekly rest at the end of the maximum working week, that a driver can do?

I think it’s 6 X 24 hours and a 24 hour weekly rest - hmmm… that’s a week or 7 days or 168 hours - or have I got that wrong?

Wrong !! We can use a fixed week for the example , or any type of week really.
Start Sunday/Monday at midnight , if we use each of the six available shifts to the max that takes us through to midnight Saturday leaving us to start a full weekly break. We take full weekly break of 45 hours, so that takes All of Sunday (24 hours} and part of Monday (21 hours). So we can resume work on Monday at 21.00 hours. In this case you can see the last week including weekly break was indeed 189 hours.

ROG:
They have, by doing the above, set a maximum time frame.

ROG:
Leaving driving, other work, POA and breaks to one side for this example;
Driver ‘A’ does 15 hours duty & 9 hours daily rest for the first 3 days then 13 hours duty for the following 3 days, which includes 2 daily rests of 11 hours.
A weekly rest would follow the last 13 hours of duty time.
Between the weekly rests, that is a total of 84 hours duty over 6 daily duty periods with 5 daily rests totalling 49 hours.
Compare that with driver ‘B’ who does 7 lots of 11 hours duty time and follows each one with 11 hours of daily rest.
A weekly rest would follow the last 11 hours of duty time.
Between the weekly rests, that is a total of 77 hours duty over 7 daily duty periods with 6 daily rests totalling 66 hours.

Why would the authorities want to make driver ‘B’ take an early weekly rest when he has already had more rest than driver ‘A’?

Got an answer for this? :wink:

Yeah !! I get my maximum time frame as higher than yours !! But the rest of it (no pun intended!!) isn’t really a valid question. If i do a trunk everyday starting on Monday say to manchester and back and go home, lets say five hours work a day, and use up firstly my three reductions of nine hours and then my minimum breaks of 11 hours, for six days. I will of had minimum rest and worked only 30 hours. It does not prove anything, and i’m sure the authorities do not want to limit my hours to 30 a week either !!

ROG:
Unless anyone can find an official who says different, then what driver ‘B’ does in the quote above is perfectly legal.

Well we’ve found an official who says different. And we’ll find out soon enough!!!

230

ROG:
Unless anyone can find an official who says different, then what driver ‘B’ does in the quote above is perfectly legal.

Mike-C:
Well we’ve found an official who says different. And we’ll find out soon enough!!!

Please post or PM me that officials contact details so that I can pass them on to the officials that I have spoken to and they can then thrash this out between them :slight_smile:

231

ROG:
What is the intention of the EU regulations in article 8?
After all, they did not write them for ‘fun’!!

To my mind, they were written with the intention of preventing a driver from working too long in a given time period.

It seems they had 2 tasks. The first was to make sure the driver had a long rest in every week (WEEKLY REST) and the second, to make sure the driver had a reasonable rest every day (DAILY REST).

So how do they ensure the first task, the WEEKLY rest?
They decide on a time period into which it must fit, they chose 7 full days, one week or 168 hours.

A weekly rest doesn’t have to ‘fit’ into 7 full days, one week or 168 hours, only a part of it must be in those 7 day/one week/168 hours. A weekly rest period can begin in one week and end in another.

ROG:
They then choose the maximum that can be continuously done between weekly rest periods in that time period; they chose 6 full days or 144 hours.

No, they chose 6 x 24 hour periods, they make absolutely no mention of 144 hours anywhere in the regulations.

ROG:
They then choose the minimum continuous rest that must be done within that time period; they chose 45 hours as a standard but allow it to be reduced to 24 hours every so often.

They then had to make a regulation, which is article 8. 6.

A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six 24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest period.

Which allows for the minimum of 24 hours weekly rest to be taken (if available).

You can take more than one weekly rest period in your 7 full days/one week/168 hours and what happens on completion of that rest period? Ah, the 144 hour clock is reset even if the period since the last weekly rest is less than 144 hours, and including a 24 hour rest period will be less than 168 hours, much like the 24 hour clock is reset after daily rest even if there is less than 24 hours since the previous rest.

So under tacho regulations it is okay for a 144-hour period to be less than 144 x 60 minutes but a 24-hour period cannot be less than 24 x 60 minutes, how does that work then?

They say a week is a long time in politics but it seems it can be quite a short time in tacho rule land. :stuck_out_tongue:

232

I read that back to myself half a dozen times before posting it and was convinced that I had made my intention clear that I was refering to the maximum limits that a driver could do in any 7 day period or 168 hours or 7 X 24 hours.

Where did I not make that clear as I am perplexed or maybe a driver can do more and I have not seen my error :question: :confused:

233

So to summarise the last 8 pages, in the UK you can do as many shifts as you can fit into the 144 hour period but as the 144 hours only seems to be mentioned in VOSA publications it is probably best not to do it over the water, where they tend to struggle to get their head round interrupted daily rest and that is in the regulations. :wink:

234

Coffeeholic:
So to summarise the last 8 pages, in the UK you can do as many shifts as you can fit into the 144 hour period but as the 144 hours only seems to be mentioned in VOSA publications it is probably best not to do it over the water, where they tend to struggle to get their head round interrupted daily rest and that is in the regulations. :wink:

Not knowing anything about officials outside the UK, is it quite common for different EU countries to interpret the regulations in different ways :question:

235

ROG:
I read that back to myself half a dozen times before posting it and was convinced that I had made my intention clear that I was refering to the maximum limits that a driver could do in any 7 day period or 168 hours or 7 X 24 hours.

Where did I not make that clear as I am perplexed or maybe a driver can do more and I have not seen my error :question: :confused:

The maximum you can work in between weekly rest periods is 6 24 hour periods :smiley:
The maximum time inbetween the end of a weekly rest and the resumption of the next weeks duty is 189 hours. Not 168 hours, not seven days and not 7 x 24 either .

236

ROG:

Coffeeholic:
So to summarise the last 8 pages, in the UK you can do as many shifts as you can fit into the 144 hour period but as the 144 hours only seems to be mentioned in VOSA publications it is probably best not to do it over the water, where they tend to struggle to get their head round interrupted daily rest and that is in the regulations. :wink:

Not knowing anything about officials outside the UK, is it quite common for different EU countries to interpret the regulations in different ways :question:

I don’t know whether its common or not, but its illegal for them not to enforce the legislation :smiley:

237

Mike-C:

ROG:
I read that back to myself half a dozen times before posting it and was convinced that I had made my intention clear that I was refering to the maximum limits that a driver could do in any 7 day period or 168 hours or 7 X 24 hours.

Where did I not make that clear as I am perplexed or maybe a driver can do more and I have not seen my error :question: :confused:

The maximum you can work in between weekly rest periods is 6 24 hour periods :smiley:
The maximum time inbetween the end of a weekly rest and the resumption of the next weeks duty is 189 hours. Not 168 hours, not seven days and not 7 x 24 either .

You beat me to it! :stuck_out_tongue:

ROG, when you say

ROG:
any 7 day period or 168 hours or 7 X 24 hours

The maximum could be more than you are saying depending when in those any 7 days the rest is taken. there is a big difference between any 7 days and the fixed week. You seem to be basing your calculations where a driver begins on a Monday and takes his rest 6 days later, again that is different from any 7 days and the weekly rest regs don’t assume that to be the case.

238

ROG:

Coffeeholic:
So to summarise the last 8 pages, in the UK you can do as many shifts as you can fit into the 144 hour period but as the 144 hours only seems to be mentioned in VOSA publications it is probably best not to do it over the water, where they tend to struggle to get their head round interrupted daily rest and that is in the regulations. :wink:

Not knowing anything about officials outside the UK, is it quite common for different EU countries to interpret the regulations in different ways :question:

They have been known to try, I’ve had several stand off’s with foreign enforcement officials in the past and won every one of them because I was able to prove my side of the argument by using the official regulations. The tacho time used to be a popular one for instance where they would try to fine the driver of a UK registered truck because they said the time was an hour out. I usedd to carry a laminated piece of paper with the relevant article from the regulations in 4 or 5 languages stating the time should be country of registration. However, I wouldn’t even attempt to argue this one with them because I cannot show them the 144 hour thing in the regulations.

239

Apparently the German police think it’s legal to work 7 shifts between weekly rest periods to, or have they got it wrong also :wink:

240

tachograph:
Apparently the German police think it’s legal to work 7 shifts between weekly rest periods to, or have they got it wrong also :wink:

The police!!! think !!! LOL !! :smiley: