BuzzardBoy:
So,basically, is it legal to use 7 cards in 6 days, providing all your breaks and rests are legal??
In a word, no, as I’ve just stated EU regs (and AETR) are to be taken not as a separate entity but in conjunction with the rules of the country of origin.
Could you expand on what regulations will be broken if 7 cards are used ?
I can expand on it !! Using a 7th card you are starting your 7th 24 hour period. The regs state quite clearly that a weekly rest period is due after six.
If you took the trouble to read the thread you’d understand by now that the 24 hour period you’re referring to is only relevant to the daily rest period that must be completed within the 24 hour period.
Mike-C:
tachograph:
As far as I can see Switzerland have agreed to use EU driving rules so the whole journey will most likely not go outside of the EU regulations and therefore is legal with 7 cards
By the way when we signed up to the EU we agreed to abide by certain rules, all EU countries have adopted EU driving and tachograph rules (theoretically anyway ) and these do in fact take precedence unless there’s an exemption or derogation in place, in the case of an exemption being in place then the countries domestic rules come into operation.
Thats a load of non applicable bunkum !! Its nowt to do with AETR, the Swiss or Domestic anything its all clearly contained in Article 8 of REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006
Again if you took the trouble to read the thread before disagreeing you’d understand that the question arose of what regulations apply in Switzerland.
The fact that AETR rules wasn’t even mentioned in the quote seems to indicate how much you read before disagreeing
Mike as far as the 6 x 24 hour periods is concerned, a 24 hour period is a period of 24 hours, honestly Mike it’s not rocket science
Take it you’ve had a bad week
No i’ve had a good week. I get frustrated when everyone else is wrong and i’m right and they just can’t see it !!
All that has changed is the terminology , which infact was changed in 2006. We now have ‘24 hour’ period , as opposed to ‘daily driving period’. And who mentioned 144 hours? It says that no where, well except in this thread.
If its not rocket science then you’ll easily explain to me how it is possible to commence a 7th 24 hour period without falling foul of the requirement to have a weekly rest after six of them?
There is a really simple answer as to wether this is legal or ilegal -
Will VOSA prosecute you for doing it
Answer - NO
Why not
Because they are the ones that KNOW and enforce these regulations.
So either ALL the VOSA and their legal bods are wrong or a few drivers are…
Mike-C:
Here is the previous regs… Community Drivers’ Hours (Council Regulation (EEC) 3820/85)
To save you reading it all here is the important bit…
A driver must, after no more than six daily driving periods, take a weekly rest period as defined in Article 8 (3).
Where is this exact wording in the current regs
1 - A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six 24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest period.
So lets forget about 144 hours being 6 X 24 for a moment and take a different slant on this -
Lets do it by TIME.
After taking a full WEEKLY rest, a driver wants to work the maximum during this week before taking his next WEEKLY rest so puts his digicard in at the start of the working week which is 0600 Monday morning, looks at the above regulation and says “I have until 0600 Sunday morning until I have to take my next WEEKLY rest”
That is a correct statement and we now have the TIME firmly set for the next WEEKLY rest
He looks through the regs and sees that there is NOTHING else that is written about WHEN to take the next WEEKLY rest
2 - Within each period of 24 hours after the end of the previous daily rest period or weekly rest period a driver shall have taken a new daily rest period.
Is there anything in the regulations that says anything about a maximum number of driving periods or daily duty periods (shifts) ? - NO - (there was in the old regs)
All this regulation says is that within a certain period, in this case they have unfortunately chosen 24 hours, WITHIN which a DAILY rest must be taken.
So lets look at this time period - they chose 24 hours but they could change it to any period they wanted by a change in the law - they could say that they wanted a driver to have 7 hours rest within a 14 hour period - it does not matter as neither will have any effect on the WEEKLY rest regulation in quote 1.
In short your take on it is that for the purposes of daily rest then the 24 hour periods start off beginning with the end of your previous daily or weekly rest and they are not neccesarily lasting for 24 hours as taking a daily rest period before the 24 hours is up curtails them, then somehow we now forget all that and for the purpose of calculating weekly rest we just take them 24 hour periods no matter how short of 24 hours they actualyy are and put them all back to back to give you this 144 hours figure?
ROG:
There is a really simple answer as to wether this is legal or ilegal -
Will VOSA prosecute you for doing it
Answer - NO
Why not
Because they are the ones that KNOW and enforce these regulations.
So either ALL the VOSA and their legal bods are wrong or a few drivers are…
Which is it
Yes but in this case the guy who asked the question is going abroad where he may very well get done for it.
Also its not as simple as ‘will VOSA prosecute you for it’, some offices would try and prosecute you for defacing a card a few years ago when you drawn start and finish lines on the front of the chart, others found it acceptable.
tachograph:
Should we consider the possibility that the wording has changed because the regulation has changed or would that be foolish
We could consider that, but we could also consider that the wording has changed to make it easier to understand for us
Hence 561/2006 supposedly making things clearer for us…
Difficulties have been experienced in interpreting,
applying, enforcing and monitoring certain provisions
of Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85 relating to driving time,
break and rest period rules for drivers engaged in
national and international road transport within the
Community in a uniform manner in all Member States,
because of the broad terms in which they are drafted.
i think if you look at this you will see that you can in theory use as many charts as you can as long as you meet this
Within each period of 24 hours after the end of the previous daily rest period or weekly rest period a driver shall have taken a new daily rest period.
so in looking at the above as long as you have a rest of 9 or 11 hours within each period of 24 hours,and as the 24 hour period rests once you have completed your required rest of 9 or 11 hours you start a you period of 24 hours
this is an example of how you mite use Severn charts in six days
full rest before shift 45 hours
Mon 6 m till 2 pm
Tues 6 am till 2 pm
wed 6 am till 2 pm
Thurs 6 am till 2 pm
Fri 6 am till 2 pm
sat 6 am till 9 am
than the driver goes home and and the boss ring him up and the other driver that does form 6 pm till 9 pm as not turned up and the driver does the run for him and it only takes 3 hour all in
sat 6 pm till 9 pm goes home
as a rest of 33 hours and then can make up his rest next week cos the following weeks shift is only five days long and he would finish at 2 pm Fri and therefore have enough rest to compensate for the reduced rest last week
I repeat , there is no law attaining to the use of cards therefore you can use as many as you like . Also the law is now that you must take a weekly rest after 6 24 hr periods (144 hrs) . Their is no such law as six days ! so as long as you do not exceed 56 hrs driving and take your prescribed daily rest periods, you can use as many cards as you care to within the 144 hrs . Days are irrelevant . Its also worth pointing out for the sake of clarity that once you have completed a daily rest period or weekly rest the slate is wiped clean and you may start your next work period . Be that daily or weekly . Aetr has absolutely nothing to do with it unless you are somehow exempt eu rules .Eu rules take presidence in all member countries unless exempt . 7 CARDS OVER 7 DAYS WITHIN 144 HRS IS ASOLUTELY LEGAL .
You know I’m sure you’re trying to wind us up but anyway …
Mike-C:
tachograph:
Should we consider the possibility that the wording has changed because the regulation has changed or would that be foolish
We could consider that, but we could also consider that the wording has changed to make it easier to understand for us
Article 8 (EC) 561/2006
Within each period of 24 hours after the end of the
previous daily rest period or weekly rest period a driver shall
have taken a new daily rest period.
No where does it say that a shift should be considered as a 24 hour period, it only says that you should have completed a daily rest within 24 hours from the start of the shift.
It seems to me that you’re falling into the trap that Coffeeholic has warned people of on many occasions, that of reading into the regulations wording that isn’t there
Scotchbaz:
To any newbies watching this thread, please understand that as a rule of thumb, you can work six days and then have to take your weekly rest
Spot on
Six days (144 hours or 6 x 24 hour periods) and then you must take either a weekly rest or a reduced weekly rest.
But you can work 7 shifts in those 6 days as long as daily rest requirements are complied with.
I knew we’d get there in the end
Not really relevant to the OPs question of “is it legal to use 7 cards in 6 days, providing all your breaks and rests are legal??” though
Scotchbaz:
When you drive through various member states of the EU, do you have to change your vehicle details (registration number, steering wheel from right to left, etc)? NO, you operate as regards the law in the country of origin. In most peoples case on this forum that would be the United Kingdom. The EU regulations are a supplemental to the domestic rules for the vehicles country of origin. For example every country has its own regulation as regards driving hours, but if you had to change to suit every country, I suspect you’d get nowhere fast, hence the need for EU and AETR. The government of the United Kingdom still is the only legislator for the people of the UK, and when the EU put forward new regulations pertaining to any part of day to day life, it still has to be passed by, at the very least, a group of Members of Parliament sitting on a committee and in a lot of cases by an act of parliament.
And just to be doubly clear, international law does not and probably never will take precedence over domestic legislation.
i beg to differ we are in the EU and as the regs say at the end
This Regulation shall enter into force on 11 April 2007, with
the exception of Articles 10(5), 26(3) and (4) and 27, which
shall enter into force on 1 May 2006.
This Regulation shall be binding in its entirety and directly applicable in all Member States.
Done at Strasbourg, 15 March 2006.
For the European Parliament
The President
J. BORRELL FONTELLES
For the Council
The President
H. WINKLER
tachograph:
It seems to me that you’re falling into the trap that Coffeeholic has warned people of on many occasions, that of reading into the regulations wording that isn’t there
Just an exercise for you, write down how I should make a cup of tea, but bear in mind that I have absolutely no idea how to do it and am visiting your planet for the first time(which I think I am) . When you’ve done that, think how you would write the regulations, so they are succinct and clear. Then send what you come up with to the EU and get a job. There will be four or five of you all competing for the same job, so make sure it’s really good.
Scotchbaz: Just an exercise for you, write down how I should make a cup of tea, but bear in mind that I have absolutely no idea how to do it and am visiting your planet for the first time(which I think I am)
as any one thought that he mite not actually need to use 7 charts as if i an not mistaken there is a holiday today and don’t some EU countries have hgv restrictions in places were there are not allowed to drive
Scotchbaz:
To any newbies watching this thread, please understand that as a rule of thumb, you can work six days and then have to take your weekly rest
Spot on
Six days (144 hours or 6 x 24 hour periods) and then you must take either a weekly rest or a reduced weekly rest.
But you can work 7 shifts in those 6 days as long as daily rest requirements are complied with.
I knew we’d get there in the end
Not really relevant to the OPs question of “is it legal to use 7 cards in 6 days, providing all your breaks and rests are legal??” though
Hmmm. It doesn’t say 6 days, nor 144 hours. It just says 6, 24 hour periods. They’re them things that start when your daily or weekly rest is ended and you commence work. I’m still waiting to find out how you can start a 7th 24 hour period and comply with the legal requirement to have a weekly break after 6 24 hour periods ?
Hmmm. It doesn’t say 6 days, nor 144 hours. It just says 6, 24 hour periods. They’re them things that start when your daily or weekly rest is ended and you commence work. I’m still waiting to find out how you can start a 7th 24 hour period and comply with the legal requirement to have a weekly break after 6 24 hour periods ?
[/quote]
6 x 24 hrs = 144 hrs ! NO one mentioned starting a 7th 24 hr period .
scenario ; Start work sunday 15.00 hrs drive 4 hrs park up for break ! Do 5 shifts up to friday evening ! Now providing you have the weekly driving hrs left you can work til 15.00 on saturday thus using a 7th card .
This has been recognised by vosa as being perfectly legal ! And as we have no higher authority in the uk …
Before the rule changes in 2007 this would not have been allowed because a day was defined as midnight til midnight .
Mike-C:
Hmmm. It doesn’t say 6 days, nor 144 hours. It just says 6, 24 hour periods. They’re them things that start when your daily or weekly rest is ended and you commence work. I’m still waiting to find out how you can start a 7th 24 hour period and comply with the legal requirement to have a weekly break after 6 24 hour periods ?
The regulations don’t say 6 days but Scotchbaz did and given that a day is 24 hours then it figures that 6 days are in fact 144 hours, simple maths
The 144 hours are also mentioned in the Drivers hours and tachograph rules booklet written by VOSA.
The original question was “is it legal to use 7 cards in 6 days, providing all your breaks and rests are legal”, turnip has already given a scenario of how it could work so I won’t bother but really there are plenty of possible situations where you could do 7 shifts in the 144 hours or 6 x 24 hour periods
Can’t honestly say I’d want to unless necessary but it’s still legal
turnip:
6 x 24 hrs = 144 hrs ! NO one mentioned starting a 7th 24 hr period .
I am saying that by using a 7th card,sheet record or starting a 7th shift that you are infact starting a 7th 24 hour period, which is not permissable. The regs say a weekly rest is due after 6 24 hour periods. I know full well that a 24 hour period commences every time you start work, you don’t seem to be able to grasp the fact. You are doing what everyone else is doing and just adding up 6 x 24 and coming up with 144 !!!
turnip:
scenario ; Start work sunday 15.00 hrs drive 4 hrs park up for break ! Do 5 shifts up to friday evening ! Now providing you have the weekly driving hrs left you can work til 15.00 on saturday thus using a 7th card .
Erm you can’t. Each time you start a shift you start a ‘24 hour period’. And you’re only allowed to do six 24 hour periods before needing a weekly break.
turnip:
This has been recognised by vosa as being perfectly legal !
Oh, i know. They even done a chart to show proscribed weekly rest scenarios. I guess it will now have to be changed.
turnip:
And as we have no higher authority in the uk …
Well we do actually. That’ll be the European Courts that make the rules.
turnip:
Before the rule changes in 2007 this would not have been allowed because a day was defined as midnight til midnight .
I can’t remember what a day was defined as. But i do know exactly what constitutes a ‘24 hour period’. Infact, don’t take my word for it, pop over here and look at the Court ruling… eur-lex.europa.eu/smartapi/cgi/s … 0394&lg=en
That will tell you exactly what a '24 hour period ’ is
I was gonna do a load of smileys like this…
tachograph: You know I’m sure you’re trying to wind us up but anyway …
Mike-C:
tachograph:
Should we consider the possibility that the wording has changed because the regulation has changed or would that be foolish
We could consider that, but we could also consider that the wording has changed to make it easier to understand for us
Article 8 (EC) 561/2006
Within each period of 24 hours after the end of the
previous daily rest period or weekly rest period a driver shall
have taken a new daily rest period.
No where does it say that a shift should be considered as a 24 hour period, it only says that you should have completed a daily rest within 24 hours from the start of the shift.
It seems to me that you’re falling into the trap that Coffeeholic has warned people of on many occasions, that of reading into the regulations wording that isn’t there
) and these do in fact take precedence unless there’s an exemption or derogation in place, in the case of an exemption being in place then the countries domestic rules come into operation.
Just an exercise for you, write down how I should make a cup of tea, but bear in mind that I have absolutely no idea how to do it and am visiting your planet for the first time(which I think I am) 
. When you’ve done that, think how you would write the regulations, so they are succinct and clear. Then send what you come up with to the EU and get a job. There will be four or five of you all competing for the same job, so make sure it’s really good. 