4 on 4 off tramping job

Sploom:

Remus:
I want a 4 on 4 off tramping job.
Update. Ive been in contact with jack Richards.
They have a slot. But I’m a bit shocked at the pay structure.
£9.77 an hour. Mon to Friday. Flat rate.
10.50. Saturday
11.70 Sunday
If you knock a pound off that £9.77. Your not far off minimum wage.

I think it’s worth remembering that minimum wage means someone is being paid more for a job than would otherwise. That’s the blunt truth, so I don’t get too worried about it.

I’m not sure that will allay his worries. Minimum wage isn’t a living wage, and the fact that the bosses would be able to pay less in its absence doesn’t make it look more attractive by comparison.

There are apps on the play store that tell you what the pick up is every month, if you enter the gross yearly salary. I was surprised that those who earn £12 an hour aren’t on a great deal more than £10, by the time the tax is applied

The marginal tax is at most 32% (in the ballpark we’re talking about), so a person gaining another £2 gross will still keep about £1.25 of it (unless he’s so poor to begin with that he’s on means-tested in-work benefits).

The biggest leeches on your pay are the ones that isn’t listed on your payslip - it’s the cost of rents, profits, and the subsidies you provide to rich consumers who are charged too little for your labour.

Rjan:

Sploom:

Remus:
I want a 4 on 4 off tramping job.
Update. Ive been in contact with jack Richards.
They have a slot. But I’m a bit shocked at the pay structure.
£9.77 an hour. Mon to Friday. Flat rate.
10.50. Saturday
11.70 Sunday
If you knock a pound off that £9.77. Your not far off minimum wage.

I think it’s worth remembering that minimum wage means someone is being paid more for a job than would otherwise. That’s the blunt truth, so I don’t get too worried about it.

I’m not sure that will allay his worries. Minimum wage isn’t a living wage, and the fact that the bosses would be able to pay less in its absence doesn’t make it look more attractive by comparison.

There are apps on the play store that tell you what the pick up is every month, if you enter the gross yearly salary. I was surprised that those who earn £12 an hour aren’t on a great deal more than £10, by the time the tax is applied

The marginal tax is at most 32% (in the ballpark we’re talking about), so a person gaining another £2 gross will still keep about £1.25 of it (unless he’s so poor to begin with that he’s on means-tested in-work benefits).

The biggest leeches on your pay are the ones that isn’t listed on your payslip - it’s the cost of rents, profits, and the subsidies you provide to rich consumers who are charged too little for your labour.

Ironically I’ve currently been in a standoff with employers wanting 8 am - 6 pm 5 days per week + in some cases every other Saturday morning for example for around minimum wage.I’ve laughed at it and said make it a job share arrangement Monday-Tuesday-Wednesday and Thursday-Friday-possibly Saturday on a rota.On the basis that Life’s too short and that remaining time is worth way more to me than the difference between let’s say around £11,000 v £19,000 pa gross bearing in mind tax.

Carryfast:

Rjan:

Ironically I’ve currently been in a standoff with employers wanting 8 am - 6 pm 5 days per week + in some cases every other Saturday morning for example for around minimum wage.I’ve laughed at it and said make it a job share arrangement Monday-Tuesday-Wednesday and Thursday-Friday-possibly Saturday on a rota.On the basis that Life’s too short and that remaining time is worth way more to me than the difference between let’s say around £11,000 v £19,000 pa gross bearing in mind tax.

I agree. The industry is still significantly over-supplied with drivers, but I’d be surprised if any haulier could get a driver for minimum wage nowadays.

The prospect of Brexit, the improving economic conditions in EE, the retirement of old timers, and the crisis of new recruitment, all seems to be having its effect.

I would guess that’s why the Tories are starting to talk about free movement with India as a the price of a trade deal, so that they can gain access to another dose of plentiful underpaid labour just as one source is drying up.

Another thing bosses don’t seem to have grasped is that it isn’t all about pay. If you overwork drivers under absurd conditions, then any pay increase will just allow them to work less under those conditions. Even if I paid zero tax on a king’s ransom, I still wouldn’t work 6 days a week for life.

Nobody ever has worked such long hours for life. The Victorian mill owners imposed those conditions, but they suffered constant turnover - in fact, to fight against the problem they even went as far as criminalising the leaving of an employment contract (which local Magistrates themselves were often loath to enforce), and they mostly tried to engage workers from childhood because older youths and men accustomed to the autonomy and pace of countryside life (or other occupations) would often not tolerate the mill conditions for long.

Back to today, the carrot for some in putting up with long hours has been the prospect of early retirement from the industry, so that in the long-term the bosses won’t actually get as much labour out of them than if they had just worked them 4 or 3 days a week until 70, and you lose skill and experience prematurely from the industry that then has to be backfilled with expensive recruitment and training.

And the way the bosses think is “if I don’t work a driver long hours then I need twice as many”, without realising that it’s exactly the long hours that leads to him needing to recruit twice as many, from a pool that eventually consists only of militants, idiots, or dries up altogether.

It’s like I’ve said before, it’s the old problem with the “sweated trades” that Winston Churchill was tackling in the 20s (and which still hadn’t been totally eliminated in the 60s), that the reality of a culture of casualisation is that:

  1. wage rates paradoxically go up (at least relative to work output, and often relative to general wage rates),
  2. manning rates for the whole industry paradoxically go up (because the men are all casuals employed inefficiently and less than full-time),
  3. overall effort and discipline goes down,
  4. productivity goes down, and
  5. skill and experience (including the capability to train and maintain it) goes down.

On effort and discipline going down, the reason was because casuals can always just put two fingers up and go next door, because the boss is only his master for the day and has no personal credit in terms of mutual relationships with the workforce, and there are thirty more bosses down the road ready to hire.

Often the bosses have the opposite of credit, and there is a history of discredit, grievance, and maltreatment, because the boss too is in the habit of knowing he has thirty more casuals to choose from the next day, and the industry attracts chancers and incompetents in management (who themselves might be almost casuals).

And anyway the workers are accustomed to being frequently unemployed through no choosing of their own and lifestyles are thus formed around not requiring regular work, and the work habit and ethic abates or isn’t formed in the first place.

Moreover, casualisation inflicts stresses, disruptions, and complexities in private lives, and degeneracy often sets in within whole communities, and men often then aren’t willing to tolerate much aggravation in the job whilst actually at work.

Rjan:

Carryfast:

Rjan:

Ironically I’ve currently been in a standoff with employers wanting 8 am - 6 pm 5 days per week + in some cases every other Saturday morning for example for around minimum wage.I’ve laughed at it and said make it a job share arrangement Monday-Tuesday-Wednesday and Thursday-Friday-possibly Saturday on a rota.On the basis that Life’s too short and that remaining time is worth way more to me than the difference between let’s say around £11,000 v £19,000 pa gross bearing in mind tax.

I agree. The industry is still significantly over-supplied with drivers, but I’d be surprised if any haulier could get a driver for minimum wage nowadays.

The prospect of Brexit, the improving economic conditions in EE, the retirement of old timers, and the crisis of new recruitment, all seems to be having its effect.

I would guess that’s why the Tories are starting to talk about free movement with India as a the price of a trade deal, so that they can gain access to another dose of plentiful underpaid labour just as one source is drying up.

Another thing bosses don’t seem to have grasped is that it isn’t all about pay. If you overwork drivers under absurd conditions, then any pay increase will just allow them to work less under those conditions. Even if I paid zero tax on a king’s ransom, I still wouldn’t work 6 days a week for life.

Nobody ever has worked such long hours for life. The Victorian mill owners imposed those conditions, but they suffered constant turnover - in fact, to fight against the problem they even went as far as criminalising the leaving of an employment contract (which local Magistrates themselves were often loath to enforce), and they mostly tried to engage workers from childhood because older youths and men accustomed to the autonomy and pace of countryside life (or other occupations) would often not tolerate the mill conditions for long.

Back to today, the carrot for some in putting up with long hours has been the prospect of early retirement from the industry, so that in the long-term the bosses won’t actually get as much labour out of them than if they had just worked them 4 or 3 days a week until 70, and you lose skill and experience prematurely from the industry that then has to be backfilled with expensive recruitment and training.

And the way the bosses think is “if I don’t work a driver long hours then I need twice as many”, without realising that it’s exactly the long hours that leads to him needing to recruit twice as many, from a pool that eventually consists only of militants, idiots, or dries up altogether.

It’s like I’ve said before, it’s the old problem with the “sweated trades” that Winston Churchill was tackling in the 20s (and which still hadn’t been totally eliminated in the 60s), that the reality of a culture of casualisation is that:

  1. wage rates paradoxically go up (at least relative to work output, and often relative to general wage rates),
  2. manning rates for the whole industry paradoxically go up (because the men are all casuals employed inefficiently and less than full-time),
  3. overall effort and discipline goes down,
  4. productivity goes down, and
  5. skill and experience (including the capability to train and maintain it) goes down.

On effort and discipline going down, the reason was because casuals can always just put two fingers up and go next door, because the boss is only his master for the day and has no personal credit in terms of mutual relationships with the workforce, and there are thirty more bosses down the road ready to hire.

Often the bosses have the opposite of credit, and there is a history of discredit, grievance, and maltreatment, because the boss too is in the habit of knowing he has thirty more casuals to choose from the next day, and the industry attracts chancers and incompetents in management (who themselves might be almost casuals).

And anyway the workers are accustomed to being frequently unemployed through no choosing of their own and lifestyles are thus formed around not requiring regular work, and the work habit and ethic abates or isn’t formed in the first place.

Moreover, casualisation inflicts stresses, disruptions, and complexities in private lives, and degeneracy often sets in within whole communities, and men often then aren’t willing to tolerate much aggravation in the job whilst actually at work.

Ironically this is all car driving jobs often ad hoc agency or self employed.While current minimum wage pays more per hour than I ever earn’t driving a truck and that was class 1 night rate albeit by the standards of almost 20 years ago.

The bit that ■■■■■■ me of isn’t the minimum wage which is ok depending on outgoings.It’s the combination of employers taking the ■■■■ regarding what is expected to be done in an hour and multiplying job roles to laughable levels to the point where the title of so called ‘driver’ is often irrelevant.In addition to silly working week expectations.Which as I said creates the worst of all worlds situation of being expected to spend too long at work,even for those at the peak of their working lives.Let alone for those at a point in life in which it is fast running down and out with the balance needing to be far more ‘me’ time in that regard than time spent at ‘work’.In addition to that time being worth more than handing over a chunk of the pointless unwanted extra money to the tax man adding insult to injury.

Then we’ve got the even greater irony of an over supplied workplace in which semi retired ex truck drivers are having to compete in that work environment with younger people needing to service a mortgage and start a family and who are then moaning about the fair hourly rate they are predictably getting for just collecting and delivering cars for the local garage and then wanting other duties/job roles added.To add as much value to the job as they can get in an attempt to make their figures add up.Not to mention the immigrant workforce looking for the easiest jobs they can find regardless of the wage and then effectively taking the jobs that older winding down Brit workers need.

IE in my case stuffed at the start of my working life by too many drivers looking for ‘my type of job’ even those most unsuited to it with family ties needing them to be at home not roaming across Europe and now the same thing happening at the end with 20-30 year olds looking for jobs which retirees need and are more suited to and then totally zbing up those jobs,by trying to make them pay,when they’ve got them. :imp: :unamused:

On that note the solution to all that certainly isn’t creating yet more ‘full time’ work.When most people now are quite rightly,looking for job sharing and far fewer hours and days spent at work.As I said life’s too short and therefore the idea should be to share the workload thereby minimising the working week and the amount of work and job roles expected to be done in an hour and by default also reducing the labour supply.

IE the old simplistic battle lines,between Victorian Mill owners and workers,have now splintered into a much more anarchic situation and free for all.In which its just as likely to be women calling for more ability to casualise and tailor their hours to fit around their home life as factory workers fed up with too long spent in what is effectively day time prison.Or truck drivers realising that it is possible to have too much of a good thing in time out on the road when they too actually need some home life and me time.Hence loads of demand for the 4 on 4 off working week for one example.

With employers wanting the extremes of either a 60 hour working week and/or two or three different job roles and two or three hours work done in an hour if not zero hours contract.

Carryfast:

Rjan:

Ironically this is all car driving jobs often ad hoc agency or self employed.While current minimum wage pays more per hour than I ever earn’t driving a truck and that was class 1 night rate albeit by the standards of almost 20 years ago.

Are you comparing in real terms or nominal terms?

The bit that ■■■■■■ me of isn’t the minimum wage which is ok depending on outgoings.It’s the combination of employers taking the ■■■■ regarding what is expected to be done in an hour and multiplying job roles to laughable levels to the point where the title of so called ‘driver’ is often irrelevant.

Agreed. That’s why unions used to enforce job demarcation, as one of the ways of ensuring that the complexity and burden of roles remained manageable (and manning levels were maintained).

In addition to silly working week expectations.Which as I said creates the worst of all worlds situation of being expected to spend too long at work,even for those at the peak of their working lives.Let alone for those at a point in life in which it is fast running down and out with the balance needing to be far more ‘me’ time in that regard than time spent at ‘work’.In addition to that time being worth more than handing over a chunk of the pointless unwanted extra money to the tax man adding insult to injury.

What are you saying? That you want public services and infrastructure, but don’t think you should have to pay anything for them?

Then we’ve got the even greater irony of an over supplied workplace in which semi retired ex truck drivers are having to compete in that work environment with younger people needing to service a mortgage and start a family and who are then moaning about the fair hourly rate they are predictably getting for just collecting and delivering cars for the local garage and then wanting other duties/job roles added.

The problem is that there isn’t enough work to go around and meet reasonable costs of living.

You yourself have bemoaned building more houses, and yet also bemoan the fact that you are facing competition and carving-up from those who consequently have high rents or mortgages to pay and are thus under pressure to extract more wages from their work.

To add as much value to the job as they can get in an attempt to make their figures add up.Not to mention the immigrant workforce looking for the easiest jobs they can find regardless of the wage and then effectively taking the jobs that older winding down Brit workers need.

I’ve always had the impression that most immigrants are looking for top pay and long hours, not necessarily the easiest work - although like any of us, they will look for the easiest work at any given rate of pay, and if the hard work isn’t paid much more than the easy work then everyone is going to crowd into the easy stuff.

IE in my case stuffed at the start of my working life by too many drivers looking for ‘my type of job’ even those most unsuited to it with family ties needing them to be at home not roaming across Europe and now the same thing happening at the end with 20-30 year olds looking for jobs which retirees need and are more suited to and then totally zbing up those jobs,by trying to make them pay,when they’ve got them. :imp: :unamused:

The problem is that if you allow other workers to get desperate, then you’re always going to have your own pay and conditions carved up one way or another.

On that note the solution to all that certainly isn’t creating yet more ‘full time’ work.When most people now are quite rightly,looking for job sharing and far fewer hours and days spent at work.As I said life’s too short and therefore the idea should be to share the workload thereby minimising the working week and the amount of work and job roles expected to be done in an hour and by default also reducing the labour supply.

On the subject of spending less time at work, McDonnell is planning a 4-day week.

And when I say “full-time”, I mean 35-40 hours (and the rest treated as overtime at time-and-half), not 65 hours as standard.

My argument about the effects of casualisation wasn’t the amount of hours worked, it’s the lack of security of hours. You can do 2 days a week and be a part-timer, without being a casual.

And you can do 5 days a week most weeks, and be a casual in an industry subject to all the evils of casualisation.

IE the old simplistic battle lines,between Victorian Mill owners and workers,have now splintered into a much more anarchic situation and free for all.In which its just as likely to be women calling for more ability to casualise and tailor their hours to fit around their home life as factory workers fed up with too long spent in what is effectively day time prison.Or truck drivers realising that it is possible to have too much of a good thing in time out on the road when they too actually need some home life and me time.Hence loads of demand for the 4 on 4 off working week for one example.

With employers wanting the extremes of either a 60 hour working week and/or two or three different job roles and two or three hours work done in an hour if not zero hours contract.

I think the main class battle lines are returning. The only real complexity is the continued existence of a zombie class of retired workers, mostly in their 70s and 80s, who did well under old settlements (including final salary pensions) but started to pull the ladder up from the late 1970s onwards.

The majority of non-retired workers now support a Corbyn Labour government.

Rjan:
Are you comparing in real terms or nominal terms?

Agreed. That’s why unions used to enforce job demarcation, as one of the ways of ensuring that the complexity and burden of roles remained manageable (and manning levels were maintained).

What are you saying? That you want public services and infrastructure, but don’t think you should have to pay anything for them?

The problem is that there isn’t enough work to go around and meet reasonable costs of living.

You yourself have bemoaned building more houses, and yet also bemoan the fact that you are facing competition and carving-up from those who consequently have high rents or mortgages to pay and are thus under pressure to extract more wages from their work.

I’ve always had the impression that most immigrants are looking for top pay and long hours, not necessarily the easiest work - although like any of us, they will look for the easiest work at any given rate of pay, and if the hard work isn’t paid much more than the easy work then everyone is going to crowd into the easy stuff.

The problem is that if you allow other workers to get desperate, then you’re always going to have your own pay and conditions carved up one way or another.

On the subject of spending less time at work, McDonnell is planning a 4-day week.

And when I say “full-time”, I mean 35-40 hours (and the rest treated as overtime at time-and-half), not 65 hours as standard.

My argument about the effects of casualisation wasn’t the amount of hours worked, it’s the lack of security of hours. You can do 2 days a week and be a part-timer, without being a casual.

And you can do 5 days a week most weeks, and be a casual in an industry subject to all the evils of casualisation.

I think the main class battle lines are returning. The only real complexity is the continued existence of a zombie class of retired workers, mostly in their 70s and 80s, who did well under old settlements (including final salary pensions) but started to pull the ladder up from the late 1970s onwards.

The majority of non-retired workers now support a Corbyn Labour government.

A combination of real terms and nominal.I’d suggest that around £ 8-9 per hour now to drive cars for the local garage to/from customers or fleet delivery/collection etc ( would be if ‘other’ duties weren’t tagged on for the reasons I’ve given ) far more return for the job in real terms,than around £7 per hour class 1 nights was almost 20 years ago.

Yes as you know I’m a great believer that demarcation was one of the most important tools in the union armoury.

I’m saying that taxation should reflect income levels and why would anyone in their later years want to needlessly work through what little time they have left just to pay taxation so as to reduce the tax burden on younger high earners like bankers in their 30’s.Especially when the old semi retired worker in question has paid more than their fair share through a working life of single tax rates.While by your logic you’ll obviously want to increase taxation on all lower earners so as to reduce it on the higher ones.

As for McDonnell’s 4 day week that’ll be like the minimum wage.IE 6 days work expected from the same workforce in 4 days.At least without putting some decent demarcation etc lines in first.

If the problem is that there ‘isn’t enough work to go round’ then why are the jobsites full of full time,big hours and workload,truck/van driving jobs which no one,including the immigrant workforce wants.But everyone is going for the easy car driving stuff and then as I said making it difficult stuff because they want the money but they don’t really want to work for it.As opposed to semi retired workers who need both an easy job and don’t need the money.

Yes I’m against loads more house building on the basis of it all being put in the South East while the North remains an underdeveloped wasteland.With the resulting population inbalance,not housing,having been proved to be the issue.By the fact that the largest housing shortages are in the already most heavily urbanised over developed areas.Not many housing shortages in North Yorkshire in that regard.In which case building yet more housing here and increasing the population of the South East will fix absolutely nothing,It will just add to the problem and destroy the quality of life of those already here as all the previous examples of history have done.

As I said casualisation and work shortage is all about the labour supply which ain’t going to be fixed by importing yet more cheap labour to create yet more gerrymandered ‘Labour’ votes.

As for divide and rule tactics in which the ‘Labour Party’ is obviously trying to turn young against old.The problem being more a case of young people who want the lifestyle and workload of retired and semi retired workers,but at the age of 25-30 with self entitlement issues to match.While also viewing the idea of solidarity and nothing comes for free without working and fighting for it,with contempt.Not older workers expecting too much for what they’ve put in and a reasonable work regime for those approaching retirement.Good luck in pandering to the former in that regard.

Only you two can hijack a thread about a guy looking for a specific shift pattern tramping job, and turn it into a political spat. There’s a time and a place, why don’t one of you start a thread in Bully’s, because this ain’t the time or place :unamused:

Carryfast:

Rjan:

I’m saying that taxation should reflect income levels and why would anyone in their later years want to needlessly work through what little time they have left just to pay taxation so as to reduce the tax burden on younger high earners like bankers in their 30’s.

Of course taxation should reflect income levels, but if you’re still capable of working (in more than a nominal or trivial job, which are tax-free anyway) then you’re still capable of paying tax. Schools and hospitals don’t become free to run at any age of life.

Especially when the old semi retired worker in question has paid more than their fair share through a working life of single tax rates.While by your logic you’ll obviously want to increase taxation on all lower earners so as to reduce it on the higher ones.

Don’t be foolish. If you want higher taxation on the rich, then you vote Labour.

As for McDonnell’s 4 day week that’ll be like the minimum wage.IE 6 days work expected from the same workforce in 4 days.At least without putting some decent demarcation etc lines in first.

Agreed, although I think the main argument is that a large part of most workers time at work is spent coping with poor or inefficient organisation, and reducing days to 4 will put pressure on those whose systems are the worst, and those whose systems are already efficient will simply take on additional workers thus soaking up the unemployed and under-employed.

If the problem is that there ‘isn’t enough work to go round’ then why are the jobsites full of full time,big hours and workload,truck/van driving jobs which no one,including the immigrant workforce wants.

Probably because the bosses are not advertising for additional workers, but for replacement workers who will work for less, allowing them to dismiss those already employed doing the work at higher wages.

It costs so little to advertise a job that bosses might as well cast the net constantly, especially in a casualised sector such as ours.

If bosses were engaging in costly training courses and recruitment roadshows and paying golden hellos, then that would credibly suggest they were short of workers, but the mere constant placing of advertisements on an online jobs board is not evidence of shortage.

But everyone is going for the easy car driving stuff and then as I said making it difficult stuff because they want the money but they don’t really want to work for it.As opposed to semi retired workers who need both an easy job and don’t need the money.

You seem to be contradicting yourself. First you’re saying people don’t want to work for their money, then you’re saying they do want to work for their money, and in doing so are increasing the demands of the job and displacing idlers like yourself who want an easy life for pocket money?

You can’t really have it both ways. You either accept that the basic problem is that wages are too low and conditions too harsh for everyone, or you’re just an idler.

In routine occupations that are safe and systematic to begin with and are capable of being done by the average person of any age, most older workers don’t become less capable of working according to established patterns, unless they have fallen victim to a specific medical condition.

You yourself suggest that the problem is not that you’ve already become physically or mentally decrepit, but that you’ve simply had enough and lack the motivation to continue.

Yes I’m against loads more house building on the basis of it all being put in the South East while the North remains an underdeveloped wasteland.With the resulting population inbalance,not housing,having been proved to be the issue.By the fact that the largest housing shortages are in the already most heavily urbanised over developed areas.Not many housing shortages in North Yorkshire in that regard.In which case building yet more housing here and increasing the population of the South East will fix absolutely nothing,It will just add to the problem and destroy the quality of life of those already here as all the previous examples of history have done.

I agree workplaces need to be redistributed to the North, but you’d be mistaken in thinking that houses in North Yorkshire (or anywhere) are available at reasonable prices.

The regional differentials in house prices are mostly a result of the regional differentials in wages and employment levels. That is, for a person working in the North and living in the North, a home is no more affordable than for a person working in the South and living in the South.

As I said casualisation and work shortage is all about the labour supply which ain’t going to be fixed by importing yet more cheap labour to create yet more gerrymandered ‘Labour’ votes.

I agree, allowing market forces to shift mass numbers of workers around the continent has no advantage for workers.

But I don’t agree how this creates gerrymandered Labour votes, especially since the majority of immigrants have arrived under Tory governments, as you already well know, and the vast majority of immigrants cannot vote.

In truth what happens is that most Tory governments open the floodgates, then talk tough about closing them, and in doing so they gerrymander votes from naive native citizens.

The Tory party spent every year of Labour’s time in office criticising immigration, and then what happened since they got back in power since 2010? Immigration has hit a new record high, and they are talking again about reducing their own new visa earnings thresholds back to £20k (i.e. not remotely the level that allows a settled family man to support a household).

As for divide and rule tactics in which the ‘Labour Party’ is obviously trying to turn young against old.The problem being more a case of young people who want the lifestyle and workload of retired and semi retired workers,but at the age of 25-30 with self entitlement issues to match.While also viewing the idea of solidarity and nothing comes for free without working and fighting for it,with contempt.Not older workers expecting too much for what they’ve put in and a reasonable work regime for those approaching retirement.Good luck in pandering to the former in that regard.

I think the supposed self-entitlement of the young is a perennial complaint. Indeed, those who complain most about self-entitlement have always tended to be older Tories looking to exploit other people’s children.

Look at the self-entitlement of Oliver Twist asking to be fed adequately, and sold off as slave labour for his cheek.

OVLOV JAY:
Only you two can hijack a thread about a guy looking for a specific shift pattern tramping job, and turn it into a political spat. There’s a time and a place, why don’t one of you start a thread in Bully’s, because this ain’t the time or place :unamused:

Yes and as we all know he ain’t going to easily find it without a few good political arguments.Because employers are all about getting as much work done in a working week by as few employees as possible.IE 4 on 4 off is just another form of job share arrangement which most employers abhorr. :unamused:

Rjan:
Of course taxation should reflect income levels, but if you’re still capable of working (in more than a nominal or trivial job, which are tax-free anyway) then you’re still capable of paying tax. Schools and hospitals don’t become free to run at any age of life.

Which part of semi retired ex truck driver with a knackered back who’s paid my dues in the form of paying years of single tax rate didn’t you understand.Quite reasonably now looking for a part time job share in what would/should be a ‘trivial job’ as part of that.Which also equally reasonably just happens to fit the required tax threshold of my tax free earnings allowance.The same allowance as everyone else gets.Other than the double standard of married couples which actually does need to be stopped.Bearing in mind that if the so called Labour Party had reversed Thatcher’s ‘welfare’ reforms I’d actually be claiming Sickness Benefit that covered my own ‘job’.

So to add insult to injury now you’re saying that you want to apply double standards on the basis that some £11,000 pa earners are more equal than others in typical bs Socialist style.Or for that matter that 4 on 4 off is itself also a type of tax dodge by your logic when the person could actually work 6 on 1 off for more money and therefore tax revenue.Labour you’re avin a larf.More like a typical Blairite who’s all for the guvnors,bankers and zb developers. :imp:

Rjan:

Carryfast:

Rjan:

Ironically I’ve currently been in a standoff with employers wanting 8 am - 6 pm 5 days per week + in some cases every other Saturday morning for example for around minimum wage.I’ve laughed at it and said make it a job share arrangement Monday-Tuesday-Wednesday and Thursday-Friday-possibly Saturday on a rota.On the basis that Life’s too short and that remaining time is worth way more to me than the difference between let’s say around £11,000 v £19,000 pa gross bearing in mind tax.

I agree. The industry is still significantly over-supplied with drivers, but I’d be surprised if any haulier could get a driver for minimum wage nowadays.

The prospect of Brexit, the improving economic conditions in EE, the retirement of old timers, and the crisis of new recruitment, all seems to be having its effect.

I would guess that’s why the Tories are starting to talk about free movement with India as a the price of a trade deal, so that they can gain access to another dose of plentiful underpaid labour just as one source is drying up.

Another thing somebosses don’t seem to have grasped is that it isn’t all about pay. If you overwork drivers under absurd conditions, then any pay increase will just allow them to work less under those conditions. Even if I paid zero tax on a king’s ransom, I still wouldn’t work 6 days a week for life. Some weeks mine worked 10-20 hours, got full pay.
Some weeks it was flat out but it was balanced out by a relaxed couple of days after

Nobody ever has worked such long hours for life. The Victorian mill owners imposed those conditions, but they suffered constant turnover - in fact, to fight against the problem they even went as far as criminalising the leaving of an employment contract (which local Magistrates themselves were often loath to enforce), and they mostly tried to engage workers from childhood because older youths and men accustomed to the autonomy and pace of countryside life (or other occupations) would often not tolerate the mill conditions for long.

Back to today, the carrot for some in putting up with long hours has been the prospect of early retirement from the industry, so that in the long-term the bosses won’t actually get as much labour out of them than if they had just worked them 4 or 3 days a week until 70, and you lose skill and experience prematurely from the industry that then has to be backfilled with expensive recruitment and training.

And the way the some bosses think is “if I don’t work a driver long hours then I need twice as many”, without realising that it’s exactly the long hours that leads to him needing to recruit twice as many, from a pool that eventually consists only of militants, idiots, or dries up altogether.

It’s like I’ve said before, it’s the old problem with the “sweated trades” that Winston Churchill was tackling in the 20s (and which still hadn’t been totally eliminated in the 60s), that the reality of a culture of casualisation is that:

  1. wage rates paradoxically go up (at least relative to work output, and often relative to general wage rates),
  2. manning rates for the whole industry paradoxically go up (because the men are all casuals employed inefficiently and less than full-time),
  3. overall effort and discipline goes down,
  4. productivity goes down, and
  5. skill and experience (including the capability to train and maintain it) goes down.

On effort and discipline going down, the reason was because casuals can always just put two fingers up and go next door, because the boss is only his master for the day and has no personal credit in terms of mutual relationships with the workforce, and there are thirty more bosses down the road ready to hire.

Often the bosses have the opposite of credit, and there is a history of discredit, grievance, and maltreatment, because the boss too is in the habit of knowing he has thirty more casuals to choose from the next day, and the industry attracts chancers and incompetents in management (who themselves might be almost casuals).well I can agree there are incompetents, it’s why I finished, but I never viewed any of my staff as casual. I spent time and money and effort in keeping them as happy as I could.

And anyway the workers are accustomed to being frequently unemployed through no choosing of their own and lifestyles are thus formed around not requiring regular work, and the work habit and ethic abates or isn’t formed in the first place.

Moreover, casualisation inflicts stresses, disruptions, and complexities in private lives, and degeneracy often sets in within whole communities, and men often then aren’t willing to tolerate much aggravation in the job whilst actually at work.

Just stick some in front of the word boss. I know I wasn’t typical, but not am I a one off.

Carryfast:

OVLOV JAY:
Only you two can hijack a thread about a guy looking for a specific shift pattern tramping job, and turn it into a political spat. There’s a time and a place, why don’t one of you start a thread in Bully’s, because this ain’t the time or place :unamused:

Yes and as we all know he ain’t going to easily find it without a few good political arguments.Because employers are all about getting as much work done in a working week by as few employees as possible.IE 4 on 4 off is just another form of job share arrangement which most employers abhorr. :unamused:

Not at all 4 on 4 off is becoming ever more common. After all its cheaper to have two drivers doing 40 hours each on basic pay than 1 doing 70/80.

albion:

Rjan:


Just stick some in front of the word boss. I know I wasn’t typical, but not am I a one off.

Exceptions always made for yourself Albion. :smiley:

I’ve probably explained before, my point is never to argue that the only possible bosses are moral bankrupts or bungling idiots, only that the market mechanism and competition tends to systematically replace the responsible with the irresponsible, and the benevolent with the malevolent.

It’s the same in sport. Not every competitor is a cheat or a doper, but the actual winners always are always cheats and dopers in the absence of the strictest controls and constant checks, and they sometimes are even in the presence of the controls and checks.

Carryfast:
Yes I’m against loads more house building on the basis of it all being put in the South East while the North remains an underdeveloped wasteland

‘How to win friends and influence people’…sheesh

Carryfast:

Rjan:
Of course taxation should reflect income levels, but if you’re still capable of working (in more than a nominal or trivial job, which are tax-free anyway) then you’re still capable of paying tax. Schools and hospitals don’t become free to run at any age of life.

Which part of semi retired ex truck driver with a knackered back who’s paid my dues in the form of paying years of single tax rate didn’t you understand.Quite reasonably now looking for a part time job share in what would/should be a ‘trivial job’ as part of that.Which also equally reasonably just happens to fit the required tax threshold of my tax free earnings allowance.The same allowance as everyone else gets.Other than the double standard of married couples which actually does need to be stopped.Bearing in mind that if the so called Labour Party had reversed Thatcher’s ‘welfare’ reforms I’d actually be claiming Sickness Benefit that covered my own ‘job’.

So what you’re saying is that you’re a medical retiree fit only for light duty, and you expect to be taken care of as a citizen who has paid his dues, rather than competing with other workers in the open marketplace?

And I agree about New Labour. In reality they started attacking sickness benefits even before the Tories did, and rolled back almost nothing of the anti-worker reforms that Thatcher introduced.

The problem is that Labour has a staunch left-winger back in charge, under relentless attack from all the vested interests, and you (like many) find every excuse and historic grievance to rake up and avoid voting for him.

So to add insult to injury now you’re saying that you want to apply double standards on the basis that some £11,000 pa earners are more equal than others in typical bs Socialist style.Or for that matter that 4 on 4 off is itself also a type of tax dodge by your logic when the person could actually work 6 on 1 off for more money and therefore tax revenue.Labour you’re avin a larf.More like a typical Blairite who’s all for the guvnors,bankers and zb developers. :imp:

I’m not sure I follow you.

switchlogic:

Carryfast:
Not at all 4 on 4 off is becoming ever more common. After all its cheaper to have two drivers doing 40 hours each on basic pay than 1 doing 70/80.

Firstly no one with any sense is going to do a job involving working every other weekend without that being reflected in the overall rate regardless.Then there’s the employers NI stamp which costs more for two employees covering an equivalent period than for one.Which is why employers hate job sharing.The only reason that 4 on 4 off works for them is because it’s the most practical way of covering a 7 days per week operation assuming that they can’t cover it sufficiently any other way by making fewer employees work silly hours and silly start times.

As for anyone looking for something even more life friendly,like a Mon-Tue-Wed and Thu-Fri and possibly alternate Sat morning rota forget it.As opposed to 8 am - 6 pm Mon-Fri and alternate Sat mornings which was one recent example which I offered job share or zb off,in addition to another example calling for 8 am - 5 pm Mon to Fri + compulsory overtime.While if you’re right they obviously would have jumped at my offer.In which case you can then bet that the East Euros would have been in there before our own got a look in.Meanwhile the same old jobs,with the same silly hours and added silly multi duties,keep appearing time and time again as one after another person tries it and walks away within a month or two on a revolving door basis.Having taken the job on and zb’d it up for themselves.Because they think that driving cars for a garage,or trade plating around the country,should pay the same as,or better than,driving a truck and don’t want all the aggro of driving a truck on local building deliveries etc if at all for a few more quid a week. :unamused:

the nodding donkey:

Remus:

Suedehead:
I really don’t get this 4 on 4 off tramping.
Should be minimum of 3 weeks away.

Nope. I don’t follow

Just ignore the dinosaur who expects his driver to have no live apart from driving and making him (the boss that is…) rich.

4on-4off is brilliant. Wether as a day job or tramping, its a perfect balance between wirking for a living, and having time to enjoy life.

I challenge anybody who disagrees, to try it for three months…

Yeap , been on it since 07 minus a slight hiccup for 18 months around 2010 , average around 50hrs every 8 days and cannot imagine going back to 5/2 or 5/3 now . Consider myself prematurely semi retired , 'kin love it .

Carryfast:
As for anyone looking for something even more life friendly,like a Mon-Tue-Wed and Thu-Fri and possibly alternate Sat morning rota forget it.As opposed to 8 am - 6 pm Mon-Fri and alternate Sat mornings which was one recent example which I offered job share or zb off,in addition to another example calling for 8 am - 5 pm Mon to Fri + compulsory overtime.

Why is that more ‘life friendly’ though? What’s so special about weekends? Why no Saturday mornings? What do you want to do on Saturday that you can’t any other day in the week? I love 4 on 4 off myself and having regular days off in the week is much more useful than weekends I find personally

switchlogic:

Carryfast:
As for anyone looking for something even more life friendly,like a Mon-Tue-Wed and Thu-Fri and possibly alternate Sat morning rota forget it.As opposed to 8 am - 6 pm Mon-Fri and alternate Sat mornings which was one recent example which I offered job share or zb off,in addition to another example calling for 8 am - 5 pm Mon to Fri + compulsory overtime.

Why is that more ‘life friendly’ though? What’s so special about weekends? Why no Saturday mornings? What do you want to do on Saturday that you can’t any other day in the week? I love 4 on 4 off myself and having regular days off in the week is much more useful than weekends I find personally

Weekends are no good for me as my kids are only off school on a Saturday and Sunday. But I can see why it’s easier having days off in the week in your elder years (not that it applies to you) as it’s easier for doctors appointments etc

OVLOV JAY:

switchlogic:

Carryfast:
As for anyone looking for something even more life friendly,like a Mon-Tue-Wed and Thu-Fri and possibly alternate Sat morning rota forget it.As opposed to 8 am - 6 pm Mon-Fri and alternate Sat mornings which was one recent example which I offered job share or zb off,in addition to another example calling for 8 am - 5 pm Mon to Fri + compulsory overtime.

Why is that more ‘life friendly’ though? What’s so special about weekends? Why no Saturday mornings? What do you want to do on Saturday that you can’t any other day in the week? I love 4 on 4 off myself and having regular days off in the week is much more useful than weekends I find personally

Weekends are no good for me as my kids are only off school on a Saturday and Sunday. But I can see why it’s easier having days off in the week in your elder years (not that it applies to you) as it’s easier for doctors appointments etc

I should have made clear that was a very Carryfast specific question knowing his circumstances, I.e similar to mine, single with no kids. I fully understand why to some weekends at home are important