Correct standards have fallen when I started driving hgv’s back in 2004 standards where a lot better but now it’s everybody for then selves f the rest. Is it a case of Poland driver standards rubbing of on us brits mmmmmm
robroy:
[How long as it been built now, I can remember it being opened but I have never used it.
Just give it whirl 1 day, just so you can say you have. I’ve used it this very week, on a you want it there by when 
I’ll be taking the M6 toll, I was still half an hour late 
ND888 BIGJ:
The government should buy this road from the operator. It was planned to ease congestion on the M6 Round Birmingham.In its present form it has failed to do that.
Really 
I thought it was planned to make money for a private road operator
robroy:
[On this subject I have often wondered why and how the M6 toll was ever considered as a good idea, when you think of all the damage and upheaval to the area caused by it’s construction. Surely it would have been more environmentally beneficial to upgrade the existing M6 in some way, rather than a separate parallel complete new motorway.
.
Surely the fact that the M6 through Birmingham is elevated for quite a long way, would mean that the required road capacity needed to ease the congestion in any meaningful way, would have meant building parallel elevated section to run along side the existing M6. This being the case, then the building off a complete new road does become a more reasonable solution imo, though the method (toll road) leaves something to be desired
ND888 BIGJ:
.Even letting HGVs use the toll road free of charge. That would go a long way to easing the M6 through Birmingham
Now that aint going to happen, why would a private company let their asset, which they have invested in and have to maintain, and would need to maintain more with heavier HGV traffic flows, be used for free
Armagedon:
It’s a long tale I won’t bore you,the toll road was built at a price,not a quality and would last about a week if any great number of lorries used it,…
I wouldn’t like to testify to the quality, but you are right on the button about traffic flows, though I think they would want more to use it than at present
Armagedon:
it was allowed because our Government hoped private companies would take over all our road network saving them money.
I think, the Labour Gov’ off the time, hoped that we the transport sector and the public would take to toll roads fullstop. Oh well think again
dieseldog999:
[
I agree, adapting and reacting to road systems and conditions (should) separate the pro.s from the amateurs.
Just to add something, has anybody noticed the latest thing in crap truck driving ?
Middle lane hogging, something that you never saw at one time, another nail in the coffin of professional truck drivers
your right enough there…because of??..speed limiters causing the majority of trucks to elephant race at 50 something loaded or empty. 
[/quote]
But you can allways run a couple off K’s slower, you don’t get into these stupid overtaking for ages manuovre’s
i was told that a major road transport company tried to get a discount on the m6 toll if it ran all its trucks down the toll road…told to ■■■■ off so now none of its trucks use the toll,just clog up the m6?
robroy:
Winseer:
If ‘smart’ motorways are some mamby-pamby “green” thing then I spit on it - because it kills people.:
Where are your facts, examples and statistics to back that statement up?.. or is it just a convenient excuse to justify to yourself your inconsiderate driving, and poor lane discipline on these Motorway systems that you have admitted on here
Today’s fatal accident on the M1 is highly likely to involve the coach driver getting “confused” over the hard shoulder status. If he was dancing on the steering wheel doing a jig instead, then you can call me wrong about that assessment of the whole incident.
I’m not wrong though am I? Today’s incident IS the example & statistic. It’s not the first either - the headline OP suggests that does it not?
My “admission” on here is to driving in lane 2 long enough for the “live hard shoulder” to come to an end. Since I am overtaking others that actually use the hard shoulder here, I’m perfectly entitled to keep going in lane 2. Ditto for overtaking supermarket wagons, and sunday driver 40mph car traffic as well. When the road is quiet, and there is therefore less chance of there being hard shoulder traffic to pass - the lane will be marked “hard shoulder emergency use only” in any case. All my actions are done in “Best judgement” and it clearly works, since I’ve never killed anyone, buzzed anyone, run anyone off the road, etc. I’m sure you don’t drive at 20mph when the gantry signs say so, and you probably don’t get straight over into a right-hand coned off single lane either - you’ll wait to see if there are actually cones ahead, before taking the sign seriously. Otherwise, you’d be pottering along doing 20-40 in the right hand lane with everyone giving you the coffeebean shake whilst undertaking you at around 50… Am I wrong?
This is just what I see. Who’s the helmet? Me? You? Everyone else?
I’m not judging you, I’m just judging everyone else around me from what I see. I don’t even take a phone into the cab with me, let alone use it on the move like so many do… It’s all down to personal judgement which is NOT decreed “wrong” just because I’m one of a minority that seems to play it that safe. 
For more “statistics” - look at the track record of the M42 going up and down the east side of Brum… Managed motorway there - Accidents all the time related to “lane confusion” again. It’s balance of probability that so many incidents on the same stretch of road are related to the “managed motorway” system, since we didn’t have this problem before the gantries were put up did we? The most common “former” incidents were fast lane multiple shunts, which damage cars more than they damage people at least. Not so the promotion to “hard shoulder impact” which all too often are a lot more serious.
Winseer:
robroy:
Winseer:
If ‘smart’ motorways are some mamby-pamby “green” thing then I spit on it - because it kills people.:
Where are your facts, examples and statistics to back that statement up?.. or is it just a convenient excuse to justify to yourself your inconsiderate driving, and poor lane discipline on these Motorway systems that you have admitted on here
Today’s fatal accident on the M1 is highly likely to involve the coach driver getting “confused” over the hard shoulder status.
The h/s was not being used as a live lane at the time of the accident so it was just a normal motorway of 3 lanes and a hard shoulder. He had managed to drive from Kent over many miles of motorway without apparently getting confused, including the smart section from J10 to North of J12 before the incident happened.
Incidents of injury and death on the hard shoulder have been happening since we had motorways, around 1500 incidents involving death or injury each year according to reports and statistics.
In the most recent report I can find, March 2014, it states that since the M42 began operating hard shoulder running in 2006 there has not been a single fatality on the 10.5 mile stretch of smart motirway.
In 2006 the M42 in the West Midlands became the first section of motorway in the UK to adopt hard shoulder running during periods of congestion. In the five years prior to the introduction of hard shoulder running there had been eight fatal accidents on that section of motorway. There have still been no fatal accidents on that section either when it is running in traditional configuration or when the hard shoulder is being used as a running lane.
The rate of serious accidents also fell dramatically from 0.7 per month prior to the introduction of hard shoulder running to 0.17 as a managed motorway while the occurrences of serious injuries fell from an average of just over one a month to less than 0.2. Minor accident rates also fell from almost 8.5 per month to 3.72.
At the same time the average traffic speed through the section had increased, as is evidenced by a 22% reduction in journey time which has been accompanied by a 10% fall in emissions.
The report also goes on to say.
Hard shoulder misuse is a factor but only with a tiny proportion of motorists. Around 140,000 vehicles a day use that section of road and we have seen about 230 vehicles a month misusing the hard shoulder – some through ignorance; others deliberately.
An average of less than 8 a day out of 140,000 ‘getting confused’, not a lot really
Other statistics readily available show that 90% of people who stop on the hard shoulder of UK motorways do so for non-emergency reasons. People will be far less likely to stop on the h/s when it’s being used as a lane, just as they don’t tend to stop in lanes 1. 2 or 3 for non-emergency reasons. If they did decide to stop in a managed section while the h/s was live it would probably be in a refuge where the chance of something running in the back of them is greatly reduced compared to being exposed on the hard shoulder.
We don’t know why that car was stopped on the hard shoulder of the M1 on Saturday morning, 1 in 10 chance it was for an emergency, and we probably never will but at the time it was a normal motorway and for some reason the coach driver drove into the stationary vehicle. Could have been illness, tiredness, distracted by something - he had a coach full of cheerleaders which could be a distraction. We don’t know but I find it hard to believe he would have been confused about the hard shoulder on a normal section of motorway which he should be used to driving on.
Winseer:
robroy:
Winseer:
If ‘smart’ motorways are some mamby-pamby “green” thing then I spit on it - because it kills people.:
Where are your facts, examples and statistics to back that statement up?.. or is it just a convenient excuse to justify to yourself your inconsiderate driving, and poor lane discipline on these Motorway systems that you have admitted on here
Today’s fatal accident on the M1 is highly likely to involve the coach driver getting “confused” over the hard shoulder status. If he was dancing on the steering wheel doing a jig instead, then you can call me wrong about that assessment of the whole incident.
I’m not wrong though am I? Today’s incident IS the example & statistic. It’s not the first either - the headline OP suggests that does it not?
My “admission” on here is to driving in lane 2 long enough for the “live hard shoulder” to come to an end. Since I am overtaking others that actually use the hard shoulder here, I’m perfectly entitled to keep going in lane 2. Ditto for overtaking supermarket wagons, and sunday driver 40mph car traffic as well. When the road is quiet, and there is therefore less chance of there being hard shoulder traffic to pass - the lane will be marked “hard shoulder emergency use only” in any case. All my actions are done in “Best judgement” and it clearly works, since I’ve never killed anyone, buzzed anyone, run anyone off the road, etc. I’m sure you don’t drive at 20mph when the gantry signs say so, and you probably don’t get straight over into a right-hand coned off single lane either - you’ll wait to see if there are actually cones ahead, before taking the sign seriously. Otherwise, you’d be pottering along doing 20-40 in the right hand lane with everyone giving you the coffeebean shake whilst undertaking you at around 50… Am I wrong?
This is just what I see. Who’s the helmet? Me? You? Everyone else?I’m not judging you, I’m just judging everyone else around me from what I see. I don’t even take a phone into the cab with me, let alone use it on the move like so many do… It’s all down to personal judgement which is NOT decreed “wrong” just because I’m one of a minority that seems to play it that safe.
For more “statistics” - look at the track record of the M42 going up and down the east side of Brum… Managed motorway there - Accidents all the time related to “lane confusion” again. It’s balance of probability that so many incidents on the same stretch of road are related to the “managed motorway” system, since we didn’t have this problem before the gantries were put up did we? The most common “former” incidents were fast lane multiple shunts, which damage cars more than they damage people at least. Not so the promotion to “hard shoulder impact” which all too often are a lot more serious.
All this is unsubstantiated personal opinion, and throw away comments such as ‘‘accidents happening all the time’’ and your use of the word ‘probability’ confirms this.
If you are overtaking vehicles that ARE complying by using the hard shoulder,then surely you ARE actually complying and using the system are you not?
That is a bit different to your original version of ‘‘not using it’’ which creates an impression of you sat in lane 2 (the original lane 1) willy nilly, overtaking or not. But wait a minute, you also said you get the coffee shaker gestures from other drivers, so I would suggest that your original version (pre. Back pedalling ) is the true version after all, why would you get derogatory gestures for using the road correctly? So I would suggest that your 2nd version is more of a saving face attempt after everybody else on here has shown you to be in the wrong 
What is the relavance to the argument that you have never killed anyone ffs , I am confident that about 99% on here could claim the same, you could use that criteria to ‘prove’ a point on any thread on here
Edit: if you are still in doubt that you are wrong check out D.Dave’s ‘Smart motorway tips’ thread, it may help
eddie snax:
robroy:
[How long as it been built now, I can remember it being opened but I have never used it.Just give it whirl 1 day, just so you can say you have. I’ve used it this very week, on a you want it there by when
ND888 BIGJ:
The government should buy this road from the operator. It was planned to ease congestion on the M6 Round Birmingham.In its present form it has failed to do that.Really
robroy:
[On this subject I have often wondered why and how the M6 toll was ever considered as a good idea, when you think of all the damage and upheaval to the area caused by it’s construction. Surely it would have been more environmentally beneficial to upgrade the existing M6 in some way, rather than a separate parallel complete new motorway.
.Surely the fact that the M6 through Birmingham is elevated for quite a long way, would mean that the required road capacity needed to ease the congestion in any meaningful way, would have meant building parallel elevated section to run along side the existing M6. This being the case, then the building off a complete new road does become a more reasonable solution imo, though the method (toll road) leaves something to be desired
ND888 BIGJ:
.Even letting HGVs use the toll road free of charge. That would go a long way to easing the M6 through Birmingham
Now that aint going to happen, why would a private company let their asset, which they have invested in and have to maintain, and would need to maintain more with heavier HGV traffic flows, be used for free
Armagedon:
It’s a long tale I won’t bore you,the toll road was built at a price,not a quality and would last about a week if any great number of lorries used it,…I wouldn’t like to testify to the quality, but you are right on the button about traffic flows, though I think they would want more to use it than at present
Armagedon:
it was allowed because our Government hoped private companies would take over all our road network saving them money.I think, the Labour Gov’ off the time, hoped that we the transport sector and the public would take to toll roads fullstop. Oh well think again
Why not quote my whole post ?
There is nothing to stop the government taking over the M6 toll road through compulsory purchase order ( its being done for HS2). Like i already said the Scottish government did this with the skye bridge.
With these new smart motorways we all just need to adapt /change our driving style /technique to suit the road layout /conditions. If you find that difficult then i think you need to ask yourself… Should i really be a proffesional driver ?
I didnt mean the road operator Would be burdened with the cost of letting HGV use the road free off charge more a subsidy from Westminster.
Driver bailed until May
ND888 BIGJ:
eddie snax:
robroy:
[How long as it been built now, I can remember it being opened but I have never used it.Just give it whirl 1 day, just so you can say you have. I’ve used it this very week, on a you want it there by when
ND888 BIGJ:
The government should buy this road from the operator. It was planned to ease congestion on the M6 Round Birmingham.In its present form it has failed to do that.Really
robroy:
[On this subject I have often wondered why and how the M6 toll was ever considered as a good idea, when you think of all the damage and upheaval to the area caused by it’s construction. Surely it would have been more environmentally beneficial to upgrade the existing M6 in some way, rather than a separate parallel complete new motorway.
.Surely the fact that the M6 through Birmingham is elevated for quite a long way, would mean that the required road capacity needed to ease the congestion in any meaningful way, would have meant building parallel elevated section to run along side the existing M6. This being the case, then the building off a complete new road does become a more reasonable solution imo, though the method (toll road) leaves something to be desired
ND888 BIGJ:
.Even letting HGVs use the toll road free of charge. That would go a long way to easing the M6 through Birmingham
Now that aint going to happen, why would a private company let their asset, which they have invested in and have to maintain, and would need to maintain more with heavier HGV traffic flows, be used for free
Armagedon:
It’s a long tale I won’t bore you,the toll road was built at a price,not a quality and would last about a week if any great number of lorries used it,…I wouldn’t like to testify to the quality, but you are right on the button about traffic flows, though I think they would want more to use it than at present
Armagedon:
it was allowed because our Government hoped private companies would take over all our road network saving them money.I think, the Labour Gov’ off the time, hoped that we the transport sector and the public would take to toll roads fullstop. Oh well think again
Why not quote my whole post ?
There is nothing to stop the government taking over the M6 toll road through compulsory purchase order ( its being done for HS2). Like i already said the Scottish government did this with the skye bridge.With these new smart motorways we all just need to adapt /change our driving style /technique to suit the road layout /conditions. If you find that difficult then i think you need to ask yourself… Should i really be a proffesional driver ?
I didnt mean the road operator Would be burdened with the cost of letting HGV use the road free off charge more a subsidy from Westminster.
I didn’t quote your whole post, for a few reasons- I wanted to try and clarify which pieces off your post I was commenting on, by clipping them out,- I didn’t have comments whether good or bad to make on all off your posts(such as the Skye bridge),- I didn’t disagree with all off your comments, so didn’t feel the need to include them amongst my comments.
As with all this stuff, we all have slightly differing view points, which sometimes merge or diverge. as for paying a subsidy to a private operator, that’s certainly an option. See, we have an area off slight agreement
I think the whole area off toll roads has been kicked well into the long grass now though, so I think that the M6 toll will stand as a slight white elephant to a political doctrine gone wrong though I will when needed take the toll road it can be a great time saver
Thanks for the reply eddie. I see it as a case of everyone fails to see the Elephant having a ■■■■ in the middle of the room. Subsidising the toll road for trucks to use is the obvious answer. But its politicians we are talking about here. So i dont hold out much hope on this happening. I used the toll road today empty as usuall while the matrix signs were saying long delays M6 jcn 10a to jcn8 and jcn 6 to jcn 4a.
So it goes to show poeple will still sit in traffic rather than pay a very over priced toll charge. And i dont blame them.
ND888 BIGJ:
Thanks for the reply eddie. I see it as a case of everyone fails to see the Elephant having a [zb] in the middle of the room. Subsidising the toll road for trucks to use is the obvious answer. But its politicians we are talking about here. So i dont hold out much hope on this happening. I used the toll road today empty as usuall while the matrix signs were saying long delays M6 jcn 10a to jcn8 and jcn 6 to jcn 4a.So it goes to show poeple will still sit in traffic rather than pay a very over priced toll charge. And i dont blame them.
If the enviroment, that being the local enviroment in the west midlands was the main concern, then surely it would be free, or at least no more than about £3 or so,(either way through means off subsidy as you say) this would then draw a sufficient amount off traffic away from the M6 reducing the pollution caused by slow moving or stationery vehicles, improving journey times, and reducing costs to the local and wider economy. But the politicians are scared off being seen as not as green as the next politician, the general public are sold a myth through the media that trucks equal pollution and that in a new eutopian society every factory and shop will have its own railway sidings, every thing in the garden will smell off roses, and we’ll all live happily ever after.
On this forum we know the painful truth, the politicians are lying , I know its shock but true, and the Media are only interested in which ever is the latest minority to shout loudest
Without a serious new roads policy that centres more on how the roads can best serve the economy, including new routes, instead off how little it will cost to build and run the infrastructure, then we are doomed to see this economy/country gradually be suffocated under the weight off our politicians failure to have a vision that truly serve the voting public
I know I’ve gone along way off the OP,but consider this, how much more efficient are the modern diesel engines, my opinion is incredibly. I seem to remember that when I started driving hgv’s in the late 80’s, I was getting maybe 7mpg at weights upto a max 38ton, though this is only from the depth off my memory. My present truck Scania 440 euro6 is returning 9.5mpg regular, at weights upto 44 ton. But how can this be expected if the truck is not able to run effeiciently, whilst stuck in endless tail backs, that’s why a we need to keep improving the roads network to be green
Jaysus where did that come from
Driver-Once-More:
Coach driver arrested
Doesn’t mean anything but good headlines for the media. Plod make the arrest by default as they then have everything on record, regardless of fault.
tackleberry:
Driver-Once-More:
Coach driver arrestedDoesn’t mean anything but good headlines for the media. Plod make the arrest by default as they then have everything on record, regardless of fault.
There were only two vehicles involved. All the occupants of one vehicle, the stationary one, did not survive so it’s pretty much a certainty the other guy is getting arrested and it’s nothing to do with providing headlines.
Correct
Looks like Winseer has deflected the argument, and took it to the ''M25 ''thread instead,…seeing as he can’t win it on here 
There’s no argument to be ‘won’ here.
I could not live taking chances with the lives of others - just because the “rules” say I’ve got to do something that in my judgement I deem unsafe. A ‘personal “cavalier” attitude towards road safety by those who ignore the common-sense dangers’ doesn’t seem like a good idea either.
Some take chances and prosper, others take chances and eventually their “good luck” that’s kept them alive all these years runs out… and the best result by this point is “Not to take some bystanders out with you”. This all goes in with “could have happened to anyone” argument. I don’t believe in that. There’s no such thing as an accident either - just an RTC caused by at least one party present being at fault in some way. Mechanical-caused crashes are still considered rare are they not?
This thread is about it being noticed that the “hard shoulder” incidents seem to be on the increase. I’ve given some reasons as to why. Perhaps everyone else would like to come up with some reasoning of their own, other than “Winseer’s wrong”. Come chuck a ball about… Just not in my face. 
Winseer:
There’s no argument to be ‘won’ here.I could not live taking chances with the lives of others - just because the “rules” say I’ve got to do something that in my judgement I deem unsafe. A ‘personal “cavalier” attitude towards road safety by those who ignore the common-sense dangers’ doesn’t seem like a good idea either.
Some take chances and prosper, others take chances and eventually their “good luck” that’s kept them alive all these years runs out… and the best result by this point is “Not to take some bystanders out with you”. This all goes in with “could have happened to anyone” argument. I don’t believe in that. There’s no such thing as an accident either - just an RTC caused by at least one party present being at fault in some way. Mechanical-caused crashes are still considered rare are they not?
This thread is about it being noticed that the “hard shoulder” incidents seem to be on the increase. I’ve given some reasons as to why. Perhaps everyone else would like to come up with some reasoning of their own, other than “Winseer’s wrong”. Come chuck a ball about… Just not in my face.
Why do you play the victim card just because everybody disagrees with you
Coffee has already came up with some statistics that refute your claim, is that not enough ‘reasoning’ for you.
It is not a case of taking chances, if you are going down the risk assessment route and getting stressed out about it, then why are you a driver ffs. There are numerous risks and potential problems every day that we go out on the road, you call it a ‘Cavalier approach’ I call it adapting and reacting to each situation and potential risk …it is called professionalism
What you don’t do is just cherry pick the rules of the road that you agree with, and ignore the ones that you don’t, especially when ignoring said rules results in defeating the object and goal of said rules, and at the same time having an adverse effect on other road users.
Im going through a lot of popcorn this evening…
Had a near miss on the M6 last night myself (not managed part) with a Transit coming off the hard shoulder from a standing start.
Luckily for me there was nothing overtaking me. I can count on one hand how many times it has happened to me in the past, but it still scares the ■■■■ out of me when it does.
I might take a lesson from Winseer and sit in lane 2 all the time because of potential accidents like this hang on that could be dangerous too… it’s lane 3 for me now 
Edit. Sat in lane 3 all day, must be a good idea as LOADS of cars are following me with the same idea, also lots of trucks are coming up my inside and blasting horns of approval at me and waving at me …strangely