28 day tacho rule digi card

[coffeeholic]

DoYouMeanMe?:

No, he asked for a printout of that day, Monday, and from my previous working day, which was the Friday. He didn’t ask me to remove my card for checking and he didn’t put a control card into the unit. Just checked the 2 printouts as well as the usual stuff such as CMR and permit then sent me on my way, after he was good enough to answer my question.

Shame you didn’t ask him if he had a card reader.

I did.

I asked him if I would have needed printouts and he said no as all the information they would need would be on my card, so by definition that means he has a means of reading the card.

Giving him the printouts on this occasion was probably quicker than removing my card and taking it to the van for reading as well as not requiring me to remove my card.

[brit_pete]

Just thought i would say that the nice
people from VOSA, have not come back
with a reply ,which yes, even if we do have
some members, who work at this
establishment and they put their
pennysworth here a bit of a let down as
even the german office came back with a
ANSWER

[brit_pete]

just had a e-mail from the VOSA
-Dear Pete
Thank you for your e-mail.
As you are wishing to publish the answer on A website your query has
been forwarded through to our press and publicity department. Should
you
wish to chase the matter up they can be e-mailed at press@vosa.gov.uk
Regards
Rebecca
SO just a matter of waiting for the reply,i will give
it a week and then send a mail to see if they
are going to answer and if so when that will be,

[dieseldave]

Hi brit pete, IMHO you’re flogging a dead horse here mate.

Here’s a question for you:

What do you think the nice VOSA people will look at when giving you their eventual answer

IMHO, it will be the same thing that a Judge looks at in deciding whether the law has been broken.
In this case, the law comes from the EU and is precisely translated into all relevant languages by the EU.

So here it is:
This is pasted from the official EU English version of 561/2006 and not from any form of handbook. (Or company policy )
(Link to official EU law website [Eur-lex] below.)

"Where a driver card is damaged, malfunctions, or is not in the possession of the driver, the driver shall:
(a) at the start of his journey, print out the details of the vehicle the driver is driving and shall enter onto that printout:
(i) details that enable the driver to be identified (name, driver card or driver’s licence number), including his signature;

(b) at the end of his journey, print out the information relating to periods of time recorded by the recording equipment, record any periods of other work, availability and rest undertaken since the printout that was made at the start of the journey, where not recorded by the tachograph, and mark on that document details that enable the driver to be identified (name, driver card or driver’s licence number), including the driver’s signature."

Since you’re in Germany, the official EU German translation might be helpful:

"Wenn eine Fahrerkarte beschädigt ist, Fehlfunktionen aufweist oder sich nicht im Besitz des Fahrers befindet, hat der Fahrer
a) zu Beginn seiner Fahrt die Angaben über das von ihm gelenkte Fahrzeug auszudrucken und in den Ausdruck
i) die Angaben, mit denen der Fahrer identifiziert werden kann (Name, Nummer der Fahrerkarte oder des Führerscheins), einzutragen und seine Unterschrift anzubringen;

b) am Ende seiner Fahrt die Angaben über die vom Kontrollgerät aufgezeichneten Zeiten auszudrucken, die vom Fahrtenschreiber nicht erfassten Zeiten, in denen er seit dem Erstellen des Ausdrucks bei Fahrtantritt andere Arbeiten ausgeübt hat, Bereitschaft hatte oder eine Ruhepause eingelegt hat, zu vermerken und auf diesem Dokument die Angaben einzutragen, mit denen der Fahrer identifiziert werden kann (Name, Nummer der Fahrerkarte oder des Führerscheins), sowie seine Unterschrift anzubringen."

Here’s a link to the OFFICIAL EU LAW 561/2006 IN ENGLISH AND GERMAN
IMHO, it gives 3 specific instances when a driver MUST make a print-out and what info is required…
IMHO, it doesn’t forbid a driver from making a print-out in other circumstances, but, do you agree that it doesn’t require it.
So brit pete why should we take any notice of that

This is my favourite part in English:

This Regulation shall be binding in its entirety and directly applicable in all Member States.
Done at Strasbourg, 15 March 2006.
For the European Parliament…

Now exactly the same in German:

Diese Verordnung ist in allen ihren Teilen verbindlich und gilt unmittelbar in jedem Mitgliedstaat.
Geschehen zu Straßburg am 15. März 2006.
Im Namen des Europäischen Parlaments…

The subject of printouts was also done to death in THIS TOPIC in which expert answers were given.

IMHO, the law leaves no room for doubt in this instance, do you agree

Even Lovlyperson gave up in the end

So brit pete, Hände hoch, if you please

All joking aside though brit pete, I’d be interested to see the reply from VOSA, but I can’t imagine it being substantially different to what I’ve quoted above.

[brit_pete]

diesildave if you had read the posts i have put here then
you will have of course read that here in GERMANY i have
spoken to both the BAG and in this case the Ordnungs
Amt, who in turn gave me the book answer and also the
alternatives , so all i wanted was to see the great british
offical put its points over, by the way when
driveing abroad you also have to obey that countrys
laws and directives so please try not only thinking
of what the law states but also what the nice
person who is doing the check wishes, try
talking to the nice belgian custom officers in the
Wallon part of belgian for instance, they have there own
way of interpreting the rules and regs,as is well known,

[dieseldave]

brit pete:
diesildave if you had read the posts i have put here then
you will have of course read that here in GERMANY i have
spoken to both the BAG and in this case the Ordnungs
Amt, who in turn gave me the book answer and also the
alternatives ,

Hi brit pete. Yes mate, I did read what you’ve put, and I read the answers too. The BAG and the Ordnungsamt can only look at what I’ve posted too.
They’ll see the same as you see, which is: “binding in its entirety and directly applicable in all Member States.”
Translated even further, does it mean: game over

brit pete:
so all i wanted was to see the great british offical put its points over,

That’s a fair point brit pete, but do you honestly think it’ll be any different to what the BAG and the Ordnungsamt, Coffeeholic, tachograph, geebee45, repton, Mike-C and I have explained

brit pete:
by the way when
driveing abroad you also have to obey that countrys
laws and directives so please try not only thinking
of what the law states but also what the nice
person who is doing the check wishes, try
talking to the nice belgian custom officers in the
Wallon part of belgian for instance, they have there own
way of interpreting the rules and regs,as is well known,

I think that part of your post is totally irrelevant brit pete, because we’re discussing digital tacho print-outs and exactly when they’re needed.

Do Wallonian customs officers check tachos in Belgium
It’s a very small point, but I’d have thought it would have been the police who do this but maybe you know better.
In any case, whatever type of Wallonian officialdom is involved has no choice but to look at the relevant law, which is exactly what you’ve now had in English, French and German.
Wallonian, or anybody elses, laws and directives are irrelevant on this subject too, because EU law overrides them all.

BTW, “direclty applicable” means exactly that. Nobody can put anything in there, nor take anything out.
IMHO, there is no question of interpretation on this point. I don’t do French, but the English and German versions are perfectly straightforward to me. Do you see something that I don’t

brit pete, whilst we’re waiting for VOSA to come back to you, how would you translate this into English

Diese Verordnung ist in allen ihren Teilen verbindlich und gilt unmittelbar in jedem Mitgliedstaat

MELTDOWN

[brit_pete]

Translated it means the following

All parts of this decree are binding
and will be enforced (in)by all member states

and yes i agree ,but you tell the person who stops you
that,as said before i would rather avoid problems
even if they are wrong, as you and i know, the delay
which arises due to any discussion with the enforcement
officer will more than likely make me lose more time
than i can afford, so me i go for the easy option

yes the wallon customs do check tachos,vehicle paper work
your euro vingette,just to name a few of the items that
they do scrutiny,

[dieseldave]

brit pete:
Translated it means the following

All parts of this decree are binding
and will be enforced (in)by all member states

Hi brit pete, so that’s what we’ve been saying all along.
As I said above, I’d agree that the law doesn’t forbid anybody from making a print-out at any time they wish to.
We don’t yet seem to quite agree on the circumstances in which a print-out IS required.

IMHO, that just leaves one remaining question:
IF a driver were “controlled” whilst driving a vehicle fitted with an analogue tacho AND he/she didn’t have print-outs for the time driven with a digital tacho, what Article and Paragraph numbers would the officer write on the receipt for the “fine” :?:

Or to put it in a more straightforward way: Which law has been broken in that case

As you know, that info MUST be written on the receipt.
So that quetion needs a good answer.

You might be able to find that answer by asking a driver who has ACTUALLY paid the “fine.”
BTW Pete, how much is the “fine” for a non-existent offence

brit pete:
and yes i agree ,but you tell the person who stops you
that,as said before i would rather avoid problems
even if they are wrong, as you and i know, the delay
which arises due to any discussion with the enforcement
officer will more than likely make me lose more time
than i can afford, so me i go for the easy option

Well brit pete, this is where I’m missing something then.
This might be something to do with how you’re paid for your work. Most people are hourly paid, so if you’re paid using a different calculation method, I can see why you carry the print-outs. In that case, I’d agree that it’s the easy option. I honestly can’t understand the logic of pandering to officers who are acting illegally though…

Does your boss stop your pay, because you’ve been “controlled” and until you’re on your way again
Mind you, if it’s company policy and the firm is willing to pay for lots of printer rolls, who are we to argue …

---

brit pete:
yes the wallon customs do check tachos,vehicle paper work
your euro vingette,just to name a few of the items that
they do scrutiny,

Thanks for that brit pete, although I did plenty of Belgian tip/load/transit, I was never “controlled” by the Wallonians using these newer laws.

[denis_f]

brit pete:
[

SO just a matter of waiting for the reply,i will give
it a week and then send a mail to see if they
are going to answer and if so when that will be,[/b]

you don’t need to wait for a reply Pete, just read GeeBee45’s reply on the second page ( Friday January 18th)

[dieseldave]

Denis F:
you don’t need to wait for a reply Pete, just read GeeBee45’s reply on the second page ( Friday January 18th)

IMHO, everybody including GeeBee45 who has commented on this has tried to point brit pete (and his boss?) in the right direction.

To be fair to Pete, IIRC, the Wallonian people have some kind of ongoing historic beef to do with regional recognition, or somesuch.
AFAIK, they also have a reputation for having a different outlook on some issues.

The part that baffles me is that Pete’s boss’ company policy appears to support the idea of pandering to officers who are clearly acting illegally. His attitude is so un-German, but I do recognise his right to that opinion. This is so baffling, because many of us know the German mantra on such things.

Please forgive the foreign words, but the German saying: “Ordnung muss sein” comes to mind here.
I’ll say that both Pete and his boss will understand that everyday saying.

“Ordnung muss sein” means “There must be order.”

As we all know, orders are orders vitch must be obeyed visout kvestion
Hence my bafflement

Let’s wait and see what Pete says about the offence written on the receipts and the level of fine for a non-existent offence.

Has anybody actually seen a valid receipt for this “offence”

[brit_pete]

WELL ladies & gentlemen ,sorry unfortunatly the VOSA
said that they can not answer the question but i should
get intouch with the enforcement office,SO Iasked them to
supply me with a e-mail address this is the answer.

Thank you for your reply.

Unfortunately, the Enforcement Offices do not have the facility for you
to
send an e-mail.

WELL i thought that THE officals in the UK would be
as helpful as those of germany i was mistaken
how is it that such a simple quiery can not be
answered by some one from the enforcement
office as they must read this site and see the intrest
in haveing a answer from the UK officals,

so folks me i give up at least the germans where willing to
answer the quiery ,

[coffeeholic]

Pete, you’ve already had a an answer from a UK official. It is almost at the bottom of page 2 of this thread.

[doyoumeanme_1]

Coffeeholic:
Pete, you’ve already had a an answer from a UK official. It is almost at the bottom of page 2 of this thread.

Do you mean this Coffeeholic?

There is no requirement (under normal circumstances) for drivers to carry printout of their ‘digital days’ when they are driving vehicles fitted with analogue tachos.

The circumstances when you do need to have printouts are;

• Your card is not in your possession; taken to mean lost or stolen
• Your card has malfunctioned
• Your card has been damaged

If so please explain how you get a printout of the details off your card if it isn’t working or has been stolen. That one confuses me? OK, if you drive for the same firm all the time and on the same wagon. ■■■■ awkward if you drive for lots of different outfits.

I suppose they could make it illegal to steal someones card and if it is written in an official document that you mustn’t do it, it means it will never happen.

A bit like the rule that says you do not need a passport to move around Europe or the ones that say that it is safe for old people to go out when it’s dark.

What the law says and what actually happens on the planet are usually quite different due to ‘interpretations’, or in the case of UK Customs and excise, pure bloody mindedness because they can. Why would you expect other forces to be any different to them?

All the way through this debate, I think most people have understood what the law says, but also know what crud you get off the authorities in some countries and were giving the option of avoiding it.

[coffeeholic]

DoYouMeanMe?:

There is no requirement (under normal circumstances) for drivers to carry printout of their ‘digital days’ when they are driving vehicles fitted with analogue tachos.

The circumstances when you do need to have printouts are;

• Your card is not in your possession; taken to mean lost or stolen
• Your card has malfunctioned
• Your card has been damaged

If so please explain how you get a printout of the details off your card if it isn’t working or has been stolen. That one confuses me?

You wouldn’t be getting a print out ‘off your card’, it would be from the unit. You take a print out at the start of the shift and one at the end, which will show distance covered, vehicle details, driving time and make manual entries on the reverse of one of the printouts to show other work, breaks POA, rest. You then enter your name and driving licence or digi card number and sign them.

[doyoumeanme_1]

Sorry, didn’t explain that very well. I mean would youhave to carry the printouts for the previous 28 days that were on your card, if it was stolen or malfunctioning.
I understand that you would have to do manual entries on the day. I meant the prior records.

[coffeeholic]

DoYouMeanMe?:
Sorry, didn’t explain that very well. I mean would youhave to carry the printouts for the previous 28 days that were on your card, if it was stolen or malfunctioning.
I understand that you would have to do manual entries on the day. I meant the prior records.

If it has been stolen or has malfunctioned you are unlikely to have printouts to carry due to there being no requirement to take them on a daily basis. This is one reason why the problem needs to be reported to the DVLA at the earliest opportunity so it becomes a matter of record. This situation would be the same as tacho charts being lost or stolen. This could be explained to VOSA if you encountered a control. Your account would be backed up by the fact you would have reported the theft to the police if it was stolen or the damaged card would have been returned to the DVLA. If it is lost well they will hopefully take your word for it. Your company should have been regularly downloading the info from your card so at worst ways there should really be no more than a few days records missing and even these could be obtained from the vehicle, or vehicles you had used.

You would of course need to carry the print outs made while you were without a working card for 28 days and they would then need to be retained for 1 year, 2 years if they are also being used to monitor the WTD. The only print outs you legally need to carry with you are those that were legally required to be made and these would be such print outs

[doyoumeanme_1]

I wonder how the foreign police would take it if I was stopped with nothing more than couple of days worth of printouts if my card was stolen? Not a thought I fancy trying.

[brit_pete]

Coffeholic, yes okay he answered.
however why can they(VOSA) not also give a
ANSWER to the quiery,why is that
not possible,this is what i can not understand;;
the german office answered straight away.

[doyoumeanme_1]

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