hkloss1:
Who’s actually responsible for monitoring compliance with 48 hrs average per week over a reference period, is this a driver or an employer, providing the driver is being employed, full time by only one company?
What are the fines that could be imposed for breaching this limit?
As far as I’m aware the company is mainly responsible for monitoring the hours but that doesn’t mean drivers can negate their legal responsibility, off hand I don’t know what the penalties are for none compliance of the average 48 hour week.
Arguing over 17 or 26 weeks is like making an enquiry about borrowing from a payday lender.
The moment you borrow, you’re over your head in debt, and will struggle just to make minimum payments.
The only reason the difference in weeks MAKES a difference to drivers is if one is continuously working over 48 hours, and pushing up that average over time. There’s already too many full time jobs out there with a CONTRACTUAL number of hours over and above 48 - using POA to get the average back down again for “compliance” purposes… How many firms too are contracting full time staff to work far longer than 10 hours when working nights?
If you are at work 15 hours, and you drive for 8hrs 50 mins of that a day - you think you are all legal and cushy - but an early grave awaits those who think this is perfectly OK to do as a “Normal hours per day, every day…”
Why aid and abet your employer to fiddle you, criminalise you, put you and the public in danger, and give you ever lower hourly rates for ever higher hours?
Talk about compounding the downturn! … All this because “Ohh I’m so insecure about not having a job!” or the more-likely "I will never work for agency - Give me that 84 hour a week tramping job at £8.33ph (only paid for 48 hours of it mind…)
Remember - in our tax and national insurance system - the first few pounds you earn - you keep. The more you earn, the less you take home, and therefore the lower your overall hourly rate is… It’s supposed to be the law already that our hours are capped for safety reasons. Attempting to circumvent these laws barely gets one any extra money - but does put both you and the public at risk. The yard is not at risk, because the insurance still pays out for death no quibble, and no suits go to jail anywhere… Go figure.
If you can’t pay back your “over hours” at the 12,13,17,20 or 26 week stage - you never will.
Start as you mean to go on, and refuse the daft contractual hourages that will have you asleep at the wheel as a matter of course.
No wonder standards of driving have been steadily dropping these past years!
Problem is, those hours are often out of our control. Early starts to miss the traffic, sometimes hours to get unloaded, last minute ‘panic’ add on’s and drops to a load, plus what seems to be endless traffic incidents some days, all add to the length of the working day.
Unlike just punching out at the clock in a factory, it not so easy to truncate your day when you still 25 mile from base. Add onto that, many hauliers want the vehicle loaded up for the next days work and it not at all difficult to push well past that 48 hours. Twelve hour plus days are still very normal for a lot of drivers out there, (especially the ones stuck in traffic)
That’s whole point of it being not a strict 48 hrs per week limit, but 48 hrs average over 17 or 26 weeks reference period, so that the driver and the employer have enough time to average down those hours.
If one week you work more than this , you need to average down before the reference period ends.
48 hours average is only for driving and other work, if you are being delayed at the collection or your delivery point and need to wait for hours, that’s what POA is for, you switch to POA and wait.
POA does not count towards your 48 hrs. Same with breaks , they also do not count.
48 hrs average is only for pure other work and driving, and I really think that’s enough. I would not want to work more than this per week.
I can happily sit on POAs all they long as long as I am being paid on hourly basis, and I would not take any other job.
When I enquire for a job and I hear it is a set weekly pay, I simply hang up the phone.
This type of arrangement is for newly qualified drivers, and for mugs.
If you are happy to get exploited go on the weekly, or monthly salary.
This way you don’t get paid for POAs, you, the driver are the one who pays with your time for all delays and waiting time at points of loading or unloading.
Yes, the Working Time Directive is generally laughed at it’s true…
10 hours max on nights? - The employers told unions that “if you push us for this, we’ll drop your pay on a pro-rata basis”…
Unions accepted “no limit on night hours” in due course…
So all the 11-15 hours per shift workers couldn’t force though a max 10 hour shift on the same pay dammit!
That was the thin end of the wedge right there - and the ball got dropped on the first bluff bet from the boss!
If Unions everywhere had stood their ground - The employer who then insisted on “lay offs” and “pay cuts” would have been told that “Punishing your workforce for wishing to comply with the law means YOU - the employer - pays the huge fine and YOU transport managers - get to be disciplined for bringing the firm into disrepute!”
Royal Mail altered their entire pay structure because of the compliance with the 48 hour weeks etc. and the result? RM hourly rates are now about as high as you get anywhere in the country - worth even more up north, because of national pay scales.
For the long shifts - they’ll get in an agency who’s not done a lot that week already…
The overtime for full time staff was handed out on a “aggregate” system where the drivers with the most banked hours in hand (from non-stat leave, shorter than 8 hour shifts, etc) got first dibs at the overtime… If you had worked 40 hours that week, you couldn’t pick up a shift longer than 8 hours for example… More for the agency drivers who’ve, I dare say, - never had it so good as they do at Royal Mail right now - all thanks to STRICT compliance with WTD and Drivers Max working hours legislation so casually discarded by the more mickey mouse outfits out there…
F-reds:
It matters because in sectors like mine you are really busy from March through to September and not so much during the winter months. A 17 week reference period would be a bit of a ballache.
The 17 week one actually works out better if you’ve a busy 6 month period as even with a 26 week reference period you cannot do max hours for 26 weeks.
If you do the maximum 60hrs a week on a 26 week reference period you’ll be parked up after 20.8 weeks for the remaining 5.2 weeks. If you do the maximum 60hrs over a 17 week reference period you’ll be parked up for 3.4 weeks and then you can run max 60hrs again for another 9 weeks to cover the 6 months from March to September.
So for a busy 6 month period a 17 week reference period wins for maximum hours and minimum down time…
If the 26 weeks run January - June then July - December then the busy period sits equally between reference periods and the quiet times to compensate and reduce likewise. Knock in the 60 hours for 13 weeks payback 36 hours for 13 weeks, though the reality suggests that since 60 working hours is an absolute maximum it is unlikely to do 60 hours for many, if any, of the 26 weeks.
hkloss1:
That’s whole point of it being not a strict 48 hrs per week limit, but 48 hrs average over 17 or 26 weeks reference period, so that the driver and the employer have enough time to average down those hours.
I have never used POA. If I knew I was going to be anywhere for 30 minutes (nothing with steel haulage) the tacho went on break for 20 minutes even when I was actually doing other work I used to be out the yard before 7am and often still loading up the truck in some local factory at 7pm. That was a normal day and all to do with keeping contracts.
I know of lots of hauliers and drivers that don’t ignore the 48 hour rule out of malice, but just trying to keep the roofs over their heads and their customers sweet. A concept some Europratt in Brussels will never understand.
They correctly realised that it’s merely a system for getting drivers to comply with the “48 hour week” rules - whilst they are still on duty for unlimited amounts - 84 hours, 90 hours - if it’s on POA it can keep you at work for longer, and in some cases for no extra pay as well.
RM it’s a 48 hour working week (plus your unpaid breaks) so only “break”, “other work” and “driving” is recognised. Taking extra breaks will have the office start asking you questions as well - and quite right too… You might be trying to palm-off enough hours to fit in that extra shift you tagged onto the beginning/end of the week’s work at RM - which they will strongly oppose - be warned! Moonlighting is viewed very dimly at RM - even and especially as an agency regular there…
At least on agency though - you get paid for the hours you work, albeit with 45 mins a shift taken off - you can still work a big hours week, and expect to get paid for it all - no “salaried so you work overtime for free” palm-off!
How many hours can someone work in an average week ?
60 hours legally. Of course with judicious use of break or poa (if that floats your boat) it is technically possible to do 6 x 15 hour shifts. Iirc it is also possible under certain circumstances to legally do a 7th shift on the bounce. I’ve never had need to do that so it’d be up to someone else to explain how it’s possible.
1248 hrs max of WORK (DRIVING AND OTHER WORK) can be done in 26 weeks this will average out at 48hrs pw.
Simply ADD TOGETHER . All Driving and other Work. then any days off for Paid Holiday and any days off Sick…and when you get to that magic number 1248 that’s it you have to stop … remember your not allowed to use holiday to reduce your average WTD to 48hrs as you have to add 8hrs per days holiday etc as per the WTD rules …
For newbies and alike I think this was the easiest way to work it out.
The way we had read the reg’s were that only actual work is counted so breaks, rest & POA don’t count and as we could see it how can holiday count, are argument would be that holiday should be based on hours worked therefore if you average 12 hour days your holiday is 12 hours
We have both myself and 1 driver who are getting to the point where we can’t work at all for the next few weeks as we will break the 48 hour rule, as a decent bloke I had thought if it really comes to it I will pay the guy to sit on his ■■■■ for a couple of weeks though now reading into it if I pay him he/I are then breaking the rules just as much if he carries on working = MADNESS
So if I don’t pay him he will jump on the agency and do 60 hour weeks and no one gets into trouble = this is madness there must be a way round this, the guys want to work, we have work coming out of our ars*'s (I like the puns)
I must be missing something
HELP is needed and fairly quickly as we only have a few days to sort this out.
Muckspreader:
The way we had read the reg’s were that only actual work is counted so breaks, rest & POA don’t count and as we could see it how can holiday count, are argument would be that holiday should be based on hours worked therefore if you average 12 hour days your holiday is 12 hours
We have both myself and 1 driver who are getting to the point where we can’t work at all for the next few weeks as we will break the 48 hour rule, as a decent bloke I had thought if it really comes to it I will pay the guy to sit on his ■■■■ for a couple of weeks though now reading into it if I pay him he/I are then breaking the rules just as much if he carries on working = MADNESS
So if I don’t pay him he will jump on the agency and do 60 hour weeks and no one gets into trouble = this is madness there must be a way round this, the guys want to work, we have work coming out of our ars*'s (I like the puns)
I must be missing something
HELP is needed and fairly quickly as we only have a few days to sort this out.
I think you’ll find if your his main employer he cant do squat other work as it falls back on you
Muckspreader:
The way we had read the reg’s were that only actual work is counted so breaks, rest & POA don’t count and as we could see it how can holiday count, are argument would be that holiday should be based on hours worked therefore if you average 12 hour days your holiday is 12 hours
We have both myself and 1 driver who are getting to the point where we can’t work at all for the next few weeks as we will break the 48 hour rule, as a decent bloke I had thought if it really comes to it I will pay the guy to sit on his ■■■■ for a couple of weeks though now reading into it if I pay him he/I are then breaking the rules just as much if he carries on working = MADNESS
So if I don’t pay him he will jump on the agency and do 60 hour weeks and no one gets into trouble = this is madness there must be a way round this, the guys want to work, we have work coming out of our ars*'s (I like the puns)
I must be missing something
HELP is needed and fairly quickly as we only have a few days to sort this out.
Statutory holidays count as 48 hours per fixed week (Monday to Sunday) or 8 hours for individual days.
Being paid is completely irrelevant
Time off work, other than four weeks statutory holiday, can be used to reduce the average irrespective of whether the driver is being paid or not.
Although we in the UK are entitled to 5.6 weeks holiday a year only four of those weeks have to be counted as 48 hours per week, the other 1.6 weeks holiday can be used to reduce the average over the reference period.
If a worker takes a full week off from their usual driving job but then does a few hours for another employer doing whatever then instead of the usual job being 48 hours for the week it is 8 hours per day off plus the few hours done in the other job which can reduce the 48
The other thing with that is if the driver is on a rota where say only 3 days have been taken off in that fixed week with a couple of hours doing another job or perhaps came into the main job for some reason then that week would only count as 3x8=24+2=26
I think the rules say that only 4 weeks holls count but does not say how many hours each of those weeks must be towards the average If I got that bit wrong then the rest of the above is only in my mind !!
hkloss1:
That’s whole point of it being not a strict 48 hrs per week limit, but 48 hrs average over 17 or 26 weeks reference period, so that the driver and the employer have enough time to average down those hours.
I have never used POA. If I knew I was going to be anywhere for 30 minutes (nothing with steel haulage) the tacho went on break for 20 minutes even when I was actually doing other work I used to be out the yard before 7am and often still loading up the truck in some local factory at 7pm. That was a normal day and all to do with keeping contracts.
I know of lots of hauliers and drivers that don’t ignore the 48 hour rule out of malice, but just trying to keep the roofs over their heads and their customers sweet. A concept some Europratt in Brussels will never understand.
The source of all problems in the haulage industry are companies like yours.
It is called unfair competition.
If your company can not service your contract by employing drivers to work no more than 48 hrs per week on average during the whole reference period than you shouldn’t be in this business at all.
Leave the space for companies that can do this within that period of time.
Your company is as I call them vulture haulage business that competes for contracts based purely on price, by thinking they can get away with pushing their drivers to work a lot more hours than an average 48 hrs, making them to work with tacho on break or POA, and by paying their drivers as little as they can get away with.
Leave it to companies that price contract accordingly based on 48 hrs average per week, by offering their drivers better pay per hour and less hours per week, basically by paying their drivers the same money you pay for a lot longer days work.
Your drivers will still get jobs, these jobs are not going anywhere , they need to be done, only your company would be gone, and be replaced by a company that respects the rules and pays drivers proper wages per hour of their work.
Because haulage companies like yours offer a lower cost to service a given contract, they are being chosen by the customer, and companies that want to price contract accordingly to it’s true cost don’t stand a chance winning such a contract because of vultures such as your company.
hkloss1:
That’s whole point of it being not a strict 48 hrs per week limit, but 48 hrs average over 17 or 26 weeks reference period, so that the driver and the employer have enough time to average down those hours.
I have never used POA. If I knew I was going to be anywhere for 30 minutes (nothing with steel haulage) the tacho went on break for 20 minutes even when I was actually doing other work I used to be out the yard before 7am and often still loading up the truck in some local factory at 7pm. That was a normal day and all to do with keeping contracts.
I know of lots of hauliers and drivers that don’t ignore the 48 hour rule out of malice, but just trying to keep the roofs over their heads and their customers sweet. A concept some Europratt in Brussels will never understand.
The source of all problems in the haulage industry are companies like yours.
It is called unfair competition.
If your company can not service your contract by employing drivers to work no more than 48 hrs per week on average during the whole reference period than you shouldn’t be in this business at all.
Leave the space for companies that can do this within that period of time.
Your company is as I call them vulture haulage business that competes for contracts based purely on price, by thinking they can get away with pushing their drivers to work a lot more hours than an average 48 hrs, making them to work with tacho on break or POA, and by paying their drivers as little as they can get away with.
Leave it to companies that price contract accordingly based on 48 hrs average per week, by offering their drivers better pay per hour and less hours per week, basically by paying their drivers the same money you pay for a lot longer days work.
Your drivers will still get jobs, these jobs are not going anywhere , they need to be done, only your company would be gone, and be replaced by a company that respects the rules and pays drivers proper wages per hour of their work.
Because haulage companies like yours offer a lower cost to service a given contract, they are being chosen by the customer, and companies that want to price contract accordingly to it’s true cost don’t stand a chance winning such a contract because of vultures such as your company.
The clue is in the wording I used to be and was.
I go to work to earn money, absolute zilch other reason. Money is the reason I live in a country village rather than in a squalid council estate and money is ultimately the primary motivator in business.
To describe a haulage company as vultures because they are dictated to by their customers who themselves are often under immense pressure from their own customers too shows a lack of appreciation of the modern business environment. When a truck has been out on distance trips all day and needs to load up for the next day because the customer wants the floor space back for the night shift’s production, you just have to crack on and get on with it. A truck earns nowt when it is parked up.
