The thread Saftey/Law forum is called “7 cards in one week”, can’t link to it from my iPhone.
Mike-C:
You could only use 6 cards, nothing to do with ‘believing’. The rules are very clear.Driving periods…
I always look up http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/Transport_Theme_files/Goods_vehicles_tachograph_hours_1111_3.pdf, when I’m not so sure about something. Nowhere does it say anything about 6 cards (I actually have only one anyway), it does say something about six consecutive 24h periods as the maximum between two weekly rests though.
And I tend to use it as it’s written as well, start 10am tuesday barcelona, catch the thursday 10am ferry from travemünde, 3 working days in 48 hours, all legal.
bristolron:
limeyphil:
gunnerheskey:
limeyphil:
why didn’t he take 9 hours off and go home on the saturday morning?Because friday was his 6th day !! He’d shipped out sunday previous !!
an easy example of how the rules work:
if he starts at midday on sunday, he can then work until midday on the following saturday.
that’s working on 7 days of the week, but it’s only 6x24 hour periods.
there are a lot of drivers, bosses, transport managers, police, and vosa that can’t get their heads around it until it’s explained.limeyphil that is exactly how the VOSA head office confirmed it to me.
they would do.
that’s how i explained it to them. 
Summary of Drivers EU Rules
Maximum daily driving - 9 hours. 10 hours twice per fixed week
Maximum weekly driving - 56 hours
Maximum driving in two weeks. 90 hours
Maximum of six 24 hour periods
Maximum driving before a break. - 4h30m
Minimum break after 4h.30m - 45 minutes. (may be taken in two parts which must be at least 15m + 30m)
Minimum daily rest period. - 11 hours, may be reduced to 9hours three times between weekly rest periods. (No compensation required)
Weekly rest - 45 hours in each fixed week. Any reductions must be compensated for and attached to a rest period of at least 9 hours. This must be done before the end of the 3rd week following the reduction.
An example of that would be that you only managed 40 hours rest. You owe 5 hours, if you take a 9 hour break and add 5 hours to it making it 14 hours, then the compensation is already paid back.
There are only 168 hours in any week, period of 7 days or half a fortnight. The minimum weekly rest period is 24 hours which leaves 144 hours. That must then follow that within that 144 hours you must fit in at least another 71 hours of daily rest.
To be honest I started this to make it simpler than the official rules, as it is I find the official legislation is quite clear if you read it in its entirety.
waynedl:
I am actually beginning to realise why people feel that we needed the dCPC
Mike-C:
You could only use 6 cards, nothing to do with ‘believing’. The rules are very clear.Driving periods…Article 6
- The driving period between any two daily rest periods or between a daily rest period and a weekly rest period, hereinafter called ‘daily driving period’, shall not exceed nine hours. It may be extended twice in any one week to 10 hours.
A driver must, after no more than six daily driving periods, take a weekly rest period as defined in Article 8 (3).
Thats pretty clear to me, you’re wrong in your assumption of what went on in the past.
It might be pretty clear but as has already been pointed out more than once EC3820/85 was repealed by EC561/2006 and so is of no interest to us in 2012. Your quotes from it should go into the forum of old and outdated rules that you want to create, as that is exactly what they are.
This is the rule we are supposed to be working by now:
EC561/2006 Article 8(6):
A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six
24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest
period.
They have replaced “6 daily driving periods” with “six 24-hour periods”. To me, and to VOSA, this means 144h, and not 6 cards.
Paul
repton:
Mike-C:
You could only use 6 cards, nothing to do with ‘believing’. The rules are very clear.Driving periods…Article 6
- The driving period between any two daily rest periods or between a daily rest period and a weekly rest period, hereinafter called ‘daily driving period’, shall not exceed nine hours. It may be extended twice in any one week to 10 hours.
A driver must, after no more than six daily driving periods, take a weekly rest period as defined in Article 8 (3).
Thats pretty clear to me, you’re wrong in your assumption of what went on in the past.
It might be pretty clear but as has already been pointed out more than once EC3820/85 was repealed by EC561/2006 and so is of no interest to us in 2012. Your quotes from it should go into the forum of old and outdated rules that you want to create, as that is exactly what they are.
This is the rule we are supposed to be working by now:
EC561/2006 Article 8(6):
A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six
24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest
period.They have replaced “6 daily driving periods” with “six 24-hour periods”. To me, and to VOSA, this means 144h, and not 6 cards.
Paul
One of us needs to give their heads a wiggle. Your last sentence that i’ve highlighted in bold i agree with. What i don’t agree with is what you and wheelnut are saying, i.e this 24 hours definition is not current etc… Forget EC3820/85 , you mentioned that in the first place i never, Wheelnut can’t even remember what it said. The FACTS are that the definition of a 24 hour period (or derivatives of it) are LEGALLY defined for the CURRENT tachograph regulations AKA EC3821/85, thats a FACT. I put it in capitals because people have a hard time understanding it. I couldn’t care less what people choose to do with the information, but if people ask for the info (as they have done here), then i’ll point it out. You , wheelnut and others can turn a blind eye to it all you like, but don’t try to tell me its wrong.
And it gets better, its like a comedy sketch…
milodon:
Mike-C:
You could only use 6 cards, nothing to do with ‘believing’. The rules are very clear.Driving periods…I always look up http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/Transport_Theme_files/Goods_vehicles_tachograph_hours_1111_3.pdf, when I’m not so sure about something. Nowhere does it say anything about 6 cards (I actually have only one anyway), it does say something about six consecutive 24h periods as the maximum between two weekly rests though.
And I tend to use it as it’s written as well, start 10am tuesday barcelona, catch the thursday 10am ferry from travemünde, 3 working days in 48 hours, all legal.
Milodon, i know English is not your first or even second language but please try to keep up with the discussion. You’ve quoted me replying to wheelnut over ‘old regulations’ and told me what they say now and what you’d do now? I think we know this.
Mike-C:
One of us needs to give their heads a wiggle. Your last sentence that i’ve highlighted in bold i agree with. What i don’t agree with is what you and wheelnut are saying, i.e this 24 hours definition is not current etc… Forget EC3820/85 , you mentioned that in the first place i never, Wheelnut can’t even remember what it said. The FACTS are that the definition of a 24 hour period (or derivatives of it) are LEGALLY defined for the CURRENT tachograph regulations AKA EC3821/85, thats a FACT. I put it in capitals because people have a hard time understanding it. I couldn’t care less what people choose to do with the information, but if people ask for the info (as they have done here), then i’ll point it out. You , wheelnut and others can turn a blind eye to it all you like, but don’t try to tell me its wrong.
We’re going round in circles here so we should probably agree to differ but I am still failing to see where your cast iron “FACT” definition lies?
Your initial links to two court cases are no use as one refers to legislation that has been repealed and one defines “period of 24 hours” (specifically that phrase, it does not mention any “derivatives of it” anywhere) when the current legislation uses the term “24-hour periods” which (as I posted earlier) might sound the same to a layman but I’m sure any lawyer will tell you could easily be interpreted very differently. Neither EC3281/85 or EC561/2006 actually define “24-hour periods” and I can’t find any reference to any court case that does in this context.
So in summary, as far as I can tell at least, it is not “FACT”, as it has not yet been tested in court it is probably a grey area. However as we know what the enforcement agency’s interpretation is (in the UK at least) that is the one I will be sticking with as they are unlikely to prosecute me for following their own guidelines.
Paul
Wheel Nut:
Summary of Drivers EU RulesMaximum daily driving - 9 hours. 10 hours twice per fixed week
Maximum weekly driving - 56 hours
Maximum driving in two weeks. 90 hours
Maximum of six 24 hour periodsMaximum driving before a break. - 4h30m
Minimum break after 4h.30m - 45 minutes. (may be taken in two parts which must be at least 15m + 30m)
Minimum daily rest period. - 11 hours, may be reduced to 9hours three times between weekly rest periods. (No compensation required)Weekly rest - 45 hours in each fixed week. Any reductions must be compensated for and attached to a rest period of at least 9 hours. This must be done before the end of the 3rd week following the reduction.
An example of that would be that you only managed 40 hours rest. You owe 5 hours, if you take a 9 hour break and add 5 hours to it making it 14 hours, then the compensation is already paid back.There are only 168 hours in any week, period of 7 days or half a fortnight. The minimum weekly rest period is 24 hours which leaves 144 hours. That must then follow that within that 144 hours you must fit in at least another 71 hours of daily rest.
To be honest I started this to make it simpler than the official rules, as it is I find the official legislation is quite clear if you read it in its entirety.
I’ve got it now !!! You’re brains cannot imagine a scenario other than VOSA’s explanations and diagrams. Start work everyday at 6 am and work to the max, i.e 9pm twice and then 7pm on the remainder days. None of it takes account of people who do real shifts that start at 6am one day, 8am the next and could see you starting at 3pm by the time you got to Friday. Thats when you’ll see how important it is to know whether 144 hours is mythical or not when you want to go home on a saturday and your start time is 5pm and you’ve a long drive ahead. If you’re constrained by these mythical hourly limits how can you possibley have rest periods that can be counted in one week or the other? 144 hours, 168 in a week, 7 days, all mathmatically correct figures with no correlation to what we’re talking about.You’re making it up as you go along, i know DJW suggested you may have a bent for studying legislation but i reckon it because you’re sat all day on a computer rather than any academic incling you’ve shown for it.
So to answer your arsey question along the lines of …“why are we having this discussion”, its because the OP’s question has brought in the question of what a 24 hour period means. YOU are the one that think different to what the EU courts says based on what VOSA print out in their ‘advice’, thats fine if VOSA wanna allow you to shive 7 cards/shifts in a week. Not a lot we can complain about .Doesn’t address the problem of how you are going to get home late on your sixth shift though, me personally i’d carry on until the end of my sixth 24 hour period like the law says. You’ll pull up at the 144 hour limit like VOSA say, thats fine too. As long as people have the info they can make their own mind up. But don;t come out with nonesense like its old law and it doesn’t apply when it does.
Now, shove that in yer pipe and smoke it !!! 
repton:
Mike-C:
One of us needs to give their heads a wiggle. Your last sentence that i’ve highlighted in bold i agree with. What i don’t agree with is what you and wheelnut are saying, i.e this 24 hours definition is not current etc… Forget EC3820/85 , you mentioned that in the first place i never, Wheelnut can’t even remember what it said. The FACTS are that the definition of a 24 hour period (or derivatives of it) are LEGALLY defined for the CURRENT tachograph regulations AKA EC3821/85, thats a FACT. I put it in capitals because people have a hard time understanding it. I couldn’t care less what people choose to do with the information, but if people ask for the info (as they have done here), then i’ll point it out. You , wheelnut and others can turn a blind eye to it all you like, but don’t try to tell me its wrong.We’re going round in circles here so we should probably agree to differ but I am still failing to see where your cast iron “FACT” definition lies?
Your initial links to two court cases are no use as one refers to legislation that has been repealed and one defines “period of 24 hours” (specifically that phrase, it does not mention any “derivatives of it” anywhere) when the current legislation uses the term “24-hour periods” which (as I posted earlier) might sound the same to a layman but I’m sure any lawyer will tell you could easily be interpreted very differently. Neither EC3281/85 or EC561/2006 actually define “24-hour periods” and I can’t find any reference to any court case that does in this context.
So in summary, as far as I can tell at least, it is not “FACT”, as it has not yet been tested in court it is probably a grey area. However as we know what the enforcement agency’s interpretation is (in the UK at least) that is the one I will be sticking with as they are unlikely to prosecute me for following their own guidelines.
Paul
This makes it FACT, if anyone thinks otherwise they need specs…
eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex … 94:EN:HTML
Michael. I do believe you are quoting and misquoting so much that even you have become confused with what you have written.
I am at a loss to find where I even sounded arsey or not.
"So to answer your arsey question along the lines of …“why are we having this discussion”, its because the OP’s question has brought in the question of what a 24 hour period means. YOU are the one that think different to what the EU courts says based on what VOSA print out in their ‘advice’,
If you look at any of my posts from 2003 to date, you will see that I do not generally quote from VOSA guide book. I have always used the official document notes and annexes. I have posted the same documents in 5 common languages to show that we do all work from the same hymn sheet, as a European community, not on this site.
A 24 hour period starts when the driver activates his tachograph to begin duty, and within that 24 hours he must take a daily rest period. It matters not if it is 2.55 in the morning or 11.15
In my summary which I presume you mean the VOSA advice. I tried my own simplified way of explaining to the forum how it works, especially the working week of 168 hours.
My objection, if anything was to do with the fact that you introduced 3 or 4 documents into the equation that mentioned the 24 hour definition, but also many other definitions which have long since changed, such as the split breaks of 2 or 3 periods. such as a daily rest period of 8 hours. These can only serve to confuse a younger driver looking for a definition.
Wheel Nut:
My objection, if anything was to do with the fact that you introduced 3 or 4 documents into the equation that mentioned the 24 hour definition, but also many other definitions which have long since changed, such as the split breaks of 2 or 3 periods. such as a daily rest period of 8 hours. These can only serve to confuse a younger driver looking for a definition.
I never introduced 3 or 4 documents. Someone else quoted the old regs and i assumed without looking that i had indeed quoted them. I never. All i produced was a definition for the current tachograph regs. VOSA will allow 7 shifts or as many as you like within 144 hours. Thats all we need to know as regards that. If someone wants to know if they can get home beyond this 144 hour limit they can now make a informed choice. The UK have paid several court costs for getting it wrong or ‘seeking clarification’ so their word is not always gospel. Thats all the info i’m looking to get out.
So like i originally said, its quite clear that…“thats the correct answer” is not so straightforward!! Thats all.
Mike-C:
Mike-C:
As i’ve just pointed out i misquoted EC3850, the definition is for the current tachograph regs (EC3851/85), so is written in already !!Actually, i never misquoted anything. The definition of 24 hours/24 hour period is for the current tachograph regulations.
Just to simplify then 24hrs = 24 hrs 
it ain’t rocket science!
Mike-C:
This makes it FACT, if anyone thinks otherwise they need specs…
eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex … 94:EN:HTML
I’ll book myself in at specsavers then as nowhere in that document can I see anything that clarifies the definition of “24-hour periods”.
I can see a definition of “period of 24 hours” but that is not the same thing.
Small differences mean a lot in law, as a quote from that document itself regarding another phrase proves: “it should be noted at the outset that the terms “period of work” and “daily working period” may not be regarded as synonymous”. That proves my point that you cannot take one definition and assume from it that something that sounds similar is in law the same thing.
So as I said before, we’ll have to agree to differ.
Paul