24hrs off/7th day?

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
21

limeyphil:
it’s nothing to do with how many cards he’s used. it’s 6x24 hour periods. loads of people still think they have to knock it on the head after the 6th card.
if you start at 6am monday, finish at 6pm, then start at 3am, finish 3pm, start at midnight, etc etc.
then you could probably use 7/8/or 9 cards. but you won’t be breaking the law as long as you don’t do more than 6x24 hour periods, and you can’t drive more than 56 hours.

I do know that and I do agree with your interpretation of the law and Paul’s.

I’m just at the stage now where although I understand it, my brain hurts too much to explain it!

22

Harry Monk:

limeyphil:
it’s nothing to do with how many cards he’s used. it’s 6x24 hour periods. loads of people still think they have to knock it on the head after the 6th card.
if you start at 6am monday, finish at 6pm, then start at 3am, finish 3pm, start at midnight, etc etc.
then you could probably use 7/8/or 9 cards. but you won’t be breaking the law as long as you don’t do more than 6x24 hour periods, and you can’t drive more than 56 hours.

I do know that and I do agree with your interpretation of the law and Paul’s.

I’m just at the stage now where although I understand it, my brain hurts too much to explain it!

you should understand the lot. you’ve just done your cpc havn’t you? :laughing:

23

limeyphil:
you should understand the lot. you’ve just done your cpc havn’t you? :laughing:

I should do.

I should understand whether Category J on a Driving Licence is a moped, a lawn mower, an invalid carriage or a “track-laying vehicle steered by its tracks” because I learned all of that too on my DCPC but somehow my eyes seemed to glaze over that afternoon. :wink:

24

I got pulled 6 weeks ago on the saturday morning on above example
Vosa no probs was 7 shifts but within the 6x24 hour periods

25

repton:
That is the right answer.

Thats a bold statement !!

repton:
There is a lot of confusion as to exactly what is meant by “6x24h periods”, some people thinking that you use up one of those 6 every time you start a shift and so are limited to 6 cards maximum.

Thats pretty much how i see it based on what the law says here…
eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex … 13:EN:HTML
eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex … 94:EN:HTML

There’s no room for guessing, they tell you EXACTLY what is meant by period of 24 hours/24 hour period.

repton:
However, our friendly VOSA man (geebee45) has confirmed on here in the past that VOSA’s interpretation of that is essentially as phil has suggested above and that you can use as many cards as you like as long as you start your next weekly rest no more than 6x24h (=144h) after you finished your last one.

You’ve got to be careful with anyones interpretations. Yours, mine, Geebees, VOSA’s…
Here’s one example of many of the UK getting the regs wrong…
11 The United Kingdom takes the opposite view. In its opinion, the interpretation proposed by the accused would allow a driver who concentrates his breaks relating to the first four-and-a-half hour period at the beginning of the day to drive continuously almost all day. Such a solution would run counter to the Regulation,

26

Mike-C:
You’ve got to be careful with anyones interpretations. Yours, mine, Geebees, VOSA’s…
Here’s one example of many of the UK getting the regs wrong…
11 The United Kingdom takes the opposite view. In its opinion, the interpretation proposed by the accused would allow a driver who concentrates his breaks relating to the first four-and-a-half hour period at the beginning of the day to drive continuously almost all day. Such a solution would run counter to the Regulation,

You are not helping anyone using old caselaw, the rules were changed on 11th April 2007. The document you have posted was dated 1993

In the new regulations, they have even mentioned the reasons for the changes. Do you lawyer types call it recital & preamble?

It has proved possible under the rules of Regulation (EEC)
No 3820/85 to schedule daily driving periods and breaks
to enable a driver to drive for too long without a full
break, leading to reduced road safety and a deterioration
in the driver’s working conditions. It is therefore
appropriate to ensure that split breaks are so ordered
as to prevent abuse.

27

Wheel Nut:
You are not helping anyone using old caselaw, the rules were changed on 11th April 2007. The document you have posted was dated 1993

In the new regulations, they have even mentioned the reasons for the changes. Do you lawyer types call it recital & preamble?

I thought it was very helpfull. The old ‘caselaw’ as you describe it is a clarification of a term, or as some call it a ‘definition’. Many /most? of the definitions are a lot older than 1993. Infact they go back to 1985, thats a more recent older one, if that makes sense? :laughing: The 1985 tacho regs are still in full flow and applicable.The description i posted above refered to the drivers hours regs at the time, and the current tacho graph regulations. You mentioned the ‘pre amble’, did you ever see a suggested change in the weekly shift pattern, or a mentioned change from the then requirement to have a weekly rest after six shifts? No me neither.
Also, if i’m not helping anyone by using ‘old caselaw’ lets hope you don;t pull the skills coaches one out the hat in an attempt to tell us travelling all over the country from or to your truck is legit eh ?
In the meantime, the link i posted is your best definition of a 24 hour period or period of 24 hours as regards drivers hours.

28

I take it the two rest days don’t have to be consecutive?

29

Saratoga:
I take it the two rest days don’t have to be consecutive?

No they don’t! :grimacing:

30

Page 22 from the link below.

businesslink.gov.uk/Transpor … 1111_3.pdf

Weekly rest periods.
A driver must start a weekly rest period no later than at the end of six consecutive 24-hour periods from the end of the last weekly rest period.
As I understand it a 24 hour period starts when you start your shift, ie a daily rest of 11 hours reduced to 9 must be taken in this 24 hour period. When you start your next shift, that’s your second 24 hour period.
I won’t be working 7 days anyway.

31

Mike-C:
Thats pretty much how i see it based on what the law says here…
eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex … 13:EN:HTML
eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex … 94:EN:HTML

There’s no room for guessing, they tell you EXACTLY what is meant by period of 24 hours/24 hour period.

Indeed, those make some things very clear, however neither of them relate to the section of EC561/2006 that we are talking about here.

The first of those links defines “each period of 24 hours” in relation to article 8(1) of EC3820/85.
The second refers to the term “day” or “period of 24 hours”.

We are talking about “A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six 24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest period” which is found in article 6(6) of EC61/2006.

They’re not the same thing. I know they sound very much the same, but in the law small differences in semantics can mean huge differences in actual meaning.

Certainly more than one person at VOSA seems to think it means 144h and not “6 cards” and at the end of the day (in the UK at least) if VOSA think it’s OK, then it’s OK.

Paul

32

Mike-C:

Wheel Nut:
You are not helping anyone using old caselaw, the rules were changed on 11th April 2007. The document you have posted was dated 1993

In the new regulations, they have even mentioned the reasons for the changes. Do you lawyer types call it recital & preamble?

I thought it was very helpfull. The old ‘caselaw’ as you describe it is a clarification of a term, or as some call it a ‘definition’. Many /most? of the definitions are a lot older than 1993. Infact they go back to 1985, thats a more recent older one, if that makes sense? :laughing: The 1985 tacho regs are still in full flow and applicable.The description i posted above refered to the drivers hours regs at the time, and the current tacho graph regulations. You mentioned the ‘pre amble’, did you ever see a suggested change in the weekly shift pattern, or a mentioned change from the then requirement to have a weekly rest after six shifts? No me neither.
Also, if i’m not helping anyone by using ‘old caselaw’ lets hope you don;t pull the skills coaches one out the hat in an attempt to tell us travelling all over the country from or to your truck is legit eh ?
In the meantime, the link i posted is your best definition of a 24 hour period or period of 24 hours as regards drivers hours.

REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL
of 15 March 2006
on the harmonisation of certain social legislation relating to road transport and amending
Council Regulations (EEC) No 3821/85 and (EC) No 2135/98 and repealing Council Regulation
(EEC) No 3820/85

The document you linked to speaks of a 45 minute break or breaks of at least 15minutes. You are obviously aware that the law changed and the regulations now state it can only be a break of 15minutes and 30 minutes respectively, or it must be taken as a complete break of 45 minutes because you have quoted it several times.

As for the Skills case, that caselaw is now written into the 561/2006 legislation in Article 9

Any time spent traveling to a location to take charge of a vehicle falling within
the scope of this Agreement, or to return from that location, when the vehicle is neither
at the driver’s home nor at the employer’s operational centre where the driver is
normally based, shall not be counted as a rest or break unless the driver is in a ferryboat
or train and has access to suitable sleeping facilities.

Again on the other documents you linked to, they mention the minimum rest period being 8 hours. As I say, by linking them into a discussion about drivers hours in 2012, it can only serve to confuse.

Since AETR and EC rules were brought in line September 2010, the new minimum reduced break is 9 hours and 561/2006 serves to show that

So a drivers break of 45 minutes can still be split, but since April 2007, they can only be split 15m + 30m with no other permutation.

Your question to me earlier about the 6 shifts probably came about in the early days of the tachograph I believe when we thought you could only use 6 cards. I don’t really care what we did in 1985, it was good fun, but trying to teach youngsters with old legislation should be kept in the old time lorry forum.

33

repton:
Certainly more than one person at VOSA seems to think it means 144h and not “6 cards” and at the end of the day (in the UK at least) if VOSA think it’s OK, then it’s OK.

It is also interesting to note that VOSA’s guidance on driver’s hours that can be found here:

dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/R … Europe.pdf

uses the wording “A driver must start a weekly rest period no later than at the end of six consecutive 24-hour periods from the end of the last weekly rest period”.

Now I realise that this is not the actual legislation but to me the word “consecutive” implies one after the other, i.e. 144h, and in fact that is the length of time used in their example in that document.

Paul

34

repton:

Mike-C:
Thats pretty much how i see it based on what the law says here…
eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex … 13:EN:HTML
eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex … 94:EN:HTML

There’s no room for guessing, they tell you EXACTLY what is meant by period of 24 hours/24 hour period.

Indeed, those make some things very clear, however neither of them relate to the section of EC561/2006 that we are talking about here.

The first of those links defines “each period of 24 hours” in relation to article 8(1) of EC3820/85.
The second refers to the term “day” or “period of 24 hours”.

We are talking about “A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six 24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest period” which is found in article 6(6) of EC61/2006.

They’re not the same thing. I know they sound very much the same, but in the law small differences in semantics can mean huge differences in actual meaning.

Certainly more than one person at VOSA seems to think it means 144h and not “6 cards” and at the end of the day (in the UK at least) if VOSA think it’s OK, then it’s OK.

Paul

Sorry i got it wrong when i said EC3820/85 was current regs, as you point out its not. I meant EC3821/85 (the tachograph regs) which are still current. Anyway, its a moot point as you say because VOSA have their own take on it which makes it pretty crystal clear what you can and can’t do. I can see a potential conflict with VOSA if for example a guy works Monday to Friday then wants to do an extra shift on a Saturday which is a late start for example, i suppose until it happens we’ll never know.

35

Wheel Nut:

Mike-C:

Wheel Nut:
You are not helping anyone using old caselaw, the rules were changed on 11th April 2007. The document you have posted was dated 1993

In the new regulations, they have even mentioned the reasons for the changes. Do you lawyer types call it recital & preamble?

I thought it was very helpfull. The old ‘caselaw’ as you describe it is a clarification of a term, or as some call it a ‘definition’. Many /most? of the definitions are a lot older than 1993. Infact they go back to 1985, thats a more recent older one, if that makes sense? :laughing: The 1985 tacho regs are still in full flow and applicable.The description i posted above refered to the drivers hours regs at the time, and the current tacho graph regulations. You mentioned the ‘pre amble’, did you ever see a suggested change in the weekly shift pattern, or a mentioned change from the then requirement to have a weekly rest after six shifts? No me neither.
Also, if i’m not helping anyone by using ‘old caselaw’ lets hope you don;t pull the skills coaches one out the hat in an attempt to tell us travelling all over the country from or to your truck is legit eh ?
In the meantime, the link i posted is your best definition of a 24 hour period or period of 24 hours as regards drivers hours.

REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL
of 15 March 2006
on the harmonisation of certain social legislation relating to road transport and amending
Council Regulations (EEC) No 3821/85 and (EC) No 2135/98 and repealing Council Regulation
(EEC) No 3820/85

The document you linked to speaks of a 45 minute break or breaks of at least 15minutes. You are obviously aware that the law changed and the regulations now state it can only be a break of 15minutes and 30 minutes respectively, or it must be taken as a complete break of 45 minutes because you have quoted it several times.

As for the Skills case, that caselaw is now written into the 561/2006 legislation in Article 9

Any time spent traveling to a location to take charge of a vehicle falling within
the scope of this Agreement, or to return from that location, when the vehicle is neither
at the driver’s home nor at the employer’s operational centre where the driver is
normally based, shall not be counted as a rest or break unless the driver is in a ferryboat
or train and has access to suitable sleeping facilities.

Again on the other documents you linked to, they mention the minimum rest period being 8 hours. As I say, by linking them into a discussion about drivers hours in 2012, it can only serve to confuse.

Since AETR and EC rules were brought in line September 2010, the new minimum reduced break is 9 hours and 561/2006 serves to show that

So a drivers break of 45 minutes can still be split, but since April 2007, they can only be split 15m + 30m with no other permutation.

Your question to me earlier about the 6 shifts probably came about in the early days of the tachograph I believe when we thought you could only use 6 cards. I don’t really care what we did in 1985, it was good fun, but trying to teach youngsters with old legislation should be kept in the old time lorry forum.

As i’ve just pointed out i misquoted EC3850, the definition is for the current tachograph regs (EC3851/85), so is written in already !!

36

Mike-C:
As i’ve just pointed out i misquoted EC3850, the definition is for the current tachograph regs (EC3851/85), so is written in already !!

Actually, i never misquoted anything. The definition of 24 hours/24 hour period is for the current tachograph regulations.

37

Wheel Nut:
Your question to me earlier about the 6 shifts probably came about in the early days of the tachograph I believe when we thought you could only use 6 cards.

You could only use 6 cards, nothing to do with ‘believing’. The rules are very clear.Driving periods…

Article 6

  1. The driving period between any two daily rest periods or between a daily rest period and a weekly rest period, hereinafter called ‘daily driving period’, shall not exceed nine hours. It may be extended twice in any one week to 10 hours.

A driver must, after no more than six daily driving periods, take a weekly rest period as defined in Article 8 (3).

Thats pretty clear to me, you’re wrong in your assumption of what went on in the past.

Wheel Nut:
I don’t really care what we did in 1985, it was good fun, but trying to teach youngsters with old legislation should be kept in the old time lorry forum.

Well if it was correct you may have a point, although i don’t agree with it. In any case you’re wrong. If we can make a forum for old rules which are wrong i’ll nominate your ideas for it !!!

38

Mike-C:

Wheel Nut:
Your question to me earlier about the 6 shifts probably came about in the early days of the tachograph I believe when we thought you could only use 6 cards.

You could only use 6 cards, nothing to do with ‘believing’. The rules are very clear.Driving periods…

Article 6

  1. The driving period between any two daily rest periods or between a daily rest period and a weekly rest period, hereinafter called ‘daily driving period’, shall not exceed nine hours. It may be extended twice in any one week to 10 hours.

A driver must, after no more than six daily driving periods, take a weekly rest period as defined in Article 8 (3).

Thats pretty clear to me, you’re wrong in your assumption of what went on in the past.

Wheel Nut:
I don’t really care what we did in 1985, it was good fun, but trying to teach youngsters with old legislation should be kept in the old time lorry forum.

Well if it was correct you may have a point, although i don’t agree with it. In any case you’re wrong. If we can make a forum for old rules which are wrong i’ll nominate your ideas for it !!!

You are quoting a lot of numbers but I don’t believe you have read all the documents.

EC3820/85 was repealed by 561/2006

EC3821/85 is legislation for usage of the recording device. It has since been amended by EC 3314/90, EC 3572/90 and EC 3688/92

  1. The expression “each period of 24 hours” in Article 8(1) of Regulation No 3820/85 must be interpreted as meaning any period of 24 hours commencing at the time when the driver activates the tachograph following a weekly or daily rest period. Where the daily rest is taken in two or three separate periods, the calculation must commence at the end of the period of not less than eight hours.

You see we cannot quote directly from your links because the rules are out of date. Although what it actually means is that the next period of 24 hours must start at the end of the longest split daily rest, which in this case would have to be 9 hours.

Only by adopting that interpretation is it possible to devise a system of alternating periods of driving and rest which preserves road safety and eases drivers’ working conditions, which are the objectives pursued by the regulation.

So remind me again what was the question asked on the forum,

From current legislation it says that A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six
24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest
period.

39

So you can have 3 ‘days’ of work where you’re driving for 9 hours, break 45m, and 9 hours rest making each ‘day’ 18h 45m.

M 0000-0430, 0430-0515, 0515-0945 (9 hours off) (Duty 1) (Day sleep)
M 1845-2315, 2315-0000, 0000-0430 (9 hours off) (Duty 2) (Morning sleep)
T 1330-1800, 1800-1845, 1845-2315 (9 hours off) (Duty 3) (Morning sheep)
W 0815-1245, 1245-1330, 1330-1800 (11 hrs off) (Duty 4) (Overnight sleep)
T 0500-0930, 0930-1015, 1015-1645 (11 hrs off) (Duty 5) (Evening/Overnight sleep)
F 0345-0830, 0830-0915, 0915-1345 (Weekly Break) (Duty 6)

Amongst all that you can get your extra two hours in a week, but it would completely [zb] up your sleeping patterns! Of course, this was assuming you were constantly driving with NO other work at all… Which if you’re doing a return run fro somewhere as previously mentioned would work but otherwise things would get complicated fast.

Perhaps using the time to drive to an area in your 4.5, take a 9 hour break and time it for getting up and doing your delivery/collections the next day in the area before the journey back…

I can see you’re points but I hadn’t thought about it before…

40

There’s a thread somewhere about using more than 6 cards in a week, I asked it a couple of years ago and don’t remember getting a definitive answer back then.