ROG:
Why do some go on about the number of charts - a lot is done on digis these days !!
We’re totally digi ROG. I used that expresion to make it clear that i was meaning a seventh shift. But seeing as you like digi i can work with that too. So lets try this…none of us wanted to commence a seventh 24 hour period. Thats one of them things that begin when you start your duty. Just remind me how many the regs says you can do?
ROG:
Driver stays with same truck all week and never takes the digicard out until the next weekly rest starts.
Digi inserted at 0600 monday - providing that all the daily rests are complied with along with all the other usual stuff then, as long as that digicard is removed for a weekly rest at or before 0600 the following sunday, the driver is legal.
According to that logic if he has extended rests in between shifts then he may not even make six 24 hour periods, as long as he sticks to this mythical 144 hours !!
Mike-C:
And funnily enough we have had several drivers in our place, including me, who refused to drive as far as this 144 hour rule. none of us would entertain using a seventh card/chart to reach this 144 hour limit. Must be losing ourselves a fortune in overtime !!
you would never need to use a seventh card or chart to reach 144 hours you do it in six
Here’s a scenario for you Del, a real one. Start work on Sunday about 3pm, idea is to run down to London so you’re on the ball for a 7am tip on Monday morning. Work Tuesday,wednesday and on Thursday evening just near the end of your shift you are asked to pick up a container from Tilbury thats bound for Aberdeen. So you’ll be taking off with it on Friday morning. You’re reckoning, and expected to be back at base for your weekly rest, still reckon you’ll make it? And, more importantly do you reckon you’ll still only have 6 charts?
Mike-C:
Just remind me how many the regs says you can do?
The regs clearly state that the maximum between weekly rests is 6 X 24 hour periods and unless my maths is out then 6 X 24 = 144
Why are you confidently telling people that they can use seven cards, do seven (or more shifts) then if the start of each shift/card,chart denotes the start of a 24 hour period? I get seven shifts,cards or charts to 168 hours. You’re not going to destroy your own argument and tell me that a 24 hour period may not be actually 24 hours are you?
Mike - are you referring to the DAILY regs or the WEEKLY regs - you cannot do BOTH at the same time as each regulation is to be taken on it’s own.
The only way to know if they are complied with is to ask the question - Have I complied with THIS regulation? - if yes, then move onto the next regulation and ask the same question again
Mike-C:
And funnily enough we have had several drivers in our place, including me, who refused to drive as far as this 144 hour rule. none of us would entertain using a seventh card/chart to reach this 144 hour limit. Must be losing ourselves a fortune in overtime !!
you would never need to use a seventh card or chart to reach 144 hours you do it in six
Here’s a scenario for you Del, a real one. Start work on Sunday about 3pm, idea is to run down to London so you’re on the ball for a 7am tip on Monday morning. Work Tuesday,wednesday and on Thursday evening just near the end of your shift you are asked to pick up a container from Tilbury thats bound for Aberdeen. So you’ll be taking off with it on Friday morning. You’re reckoning, and expected to be back at base for your weekly rest, still reckon you’ll make it? And, more importantly do you reckon you’ll still only have 6 charts?
my post mate was the fact that in normal driving I.E. 13 hour days and 11 hour rest you only need 6 charts and then you still have to finish before you reach 144 hours unless you work night shift on your sixth 24 hour period
and with your scenario i would say you would need a seventh chart for working the sat to get back
my mate does containers and works ever Sunday and always finishes Friday he to would never work the sat, which would be the seventh chart, as it would make it difficult to compensate the lost rest as the only way the job pays is to work Sunday to Friday every week
ROG:
Mike - are you referring to the DAILY regs or the WEEKLY regs - you cannot do BOTH at the same time as each regulation is to be taken on it’s own.
The only way to know if they are complied with is to ask the question - Have I complied with THIS regulation? - if yes, then move onto the next regulation and ask the same question again
I like that move ROG. When i mention seven cards/charts you impersonally ask…“why do some …” Now i’ve asked you a question you are fumbling with i’m “Mike” !!!
Lets get it clear, you’re saying you can do or start as many shifts as you like as long as you take a weekly rest by the 144 hour limit. This is because 6 x 24 = 144. I understand what you’re saying, although i don’t agree. Now, explain this to me …if i fit 7 shifts into this 144 hour period (which is not stated in the regs),i start a 24 hour period each time i end a daily rest (which is in the regs). So 7 x 24 =168. Thats means it falls foul of the regs. Now, are you going to tell me that not every 24 hour period is actually 24 hours? Think carefully before you answer.
delboytwo:
my post mate was the fact that in normal driving I.E. 13 hour days and 11 hour rest
Del, thats not normal driving. Its a text book explanation of the rules. Normal driving is doing a 10 hour shift then maybe taking nine hours rest, then doing a fifteen hour shift and taking 12 hours rest. Thats real or normal driving, i.e. nothing like the examples in the books !!!
ROG:
as long as that digicard is removed for a weekly rest at or before 0600 the following sunday, the driver is legal.
That’s ■■■■■■■■, once again you are making up stuff and implying it is a legal requirement. You don’t have to remove the card for a weekly rest. I have several weekly rest periods currently on my card, mostly varying in length between 24 and 30 odd hours but there is at least one full weekly rest period, maybe two if it hasn’t dropped off yet…
ROG:
The regs clearly state that the maximum between weekly rests is 6 X 24 hour periods and unless my maths is out then 6 X 24 = 144
Every time this discussion comes up all you do is repeat the same stuff other people have said before, geebee45 for example. You constantly go on about the math thing and yet you consistently miss the bit, only a few words, in the regulations which supports your side of the argument the most. I’ve never once seen you mention it or use it to prove your point, maybe one day eh?
delboytwo:
my post mate was the fact that in normal driving I.E. 13 hour days and 11 hour rest
Del, thats not normal driving. Its a text book explanation of the rules. Normal driving is doing a 10 hour shift then maybe taking nine hours rest, then doing a fifteen hour shift and taking 12 hours rest. Thats real or normal driving, i.e. nothing like the examples in the books !!!
i have do that work mate on fridges the firm used us to the fullest hours possible most week i work 69 hours and sometime up to 72 hours and that in six days fishing at 9am sat,
I do know that most drivers start at funny time and sometimes do funny hours but look at it this way if you could only do 6x24 hour periods, according to the EU a 24 hour period is a period between rests whether it be daily or weekly an new 24 hour period will always start at the end of the rest.that would mead a 24 hour period could be only 1 hour or even less.
and another thing the term 6x24 hours is only in the regs to tell you when to take weekly rest it as no barring on the amount of work that could be done in the 6x24 hour periods what you do in those 6x24 hour periods is up to you as long as you meet you daily rest and driving limits
ROG:
Mike, you’ve done exactly the same as the last time this was discussed in a 6 page thread - you’ve taken 2 different regs and put them together.
ONE reg for DAILY rest
ONE reg for WEEKLY rest
As pointed out by Del, its the same regs. One regs for hours and one regs for recording instruments. And also a harmonising and description of meaning of the phrases and terms used in the regs.
ROG:
until you can seperate them in your mind then you will always have the same incorrect outcome.
I’ll work on it, i’ll try to disregard what the regs say and take the advice of a pamphlet with a disclaimer that tells you to seek legal guidance.
ROG:
I am unable to say any more as I cannot make you think differently - only you can do that.
No, no, don’t give up now you’re winning me over. I’m getting what you’re saying. 6 x 24 =144. I got that, i’m asking…
[1] When does a 24 hour period begin
[2] How many can you do in a week
[3]whats 7 x 24 ?
Dead easy, we don’t need no explanations or anything. Just aswer 1,2,3 and leave it at that.
delboytwo:
according to the EU a 24 hour period is a period between rests
That’s not correct Del. A 24 hour period, as far as the tacho rules go, begins when you resume work after a rest period and ends when you end the next rest period or reach 24 hours from starting work, whichever comes first.
delboytwo:
an new 24 hour period will always start at the end of the rest.
That contradicts what you wrote above. Up there you said it is between rests.
delboytwo:
that would mead a 24 hour period could be only 1 hour or even less.
It couldn’t, it will always contain a rest period and the minimum rest period is 9 hours, so it can never be less than 9 and a bit hours.
Coffeeholic:
delboytwo wrote:according to the EU a 24 hour period is a period between rests
That’s not correct Del. A 24 hour period, as far as the tacho rules go, begins when you resume work after a rest period and ends when you end the next rest period or reach 24 hours from starting work, whichever comes first.
i thought you mite doubted what i sad
The “daily working period” within the meaning of Article 15(2) of Council Regulation (EEC) No 3821/85 of 20 December 1985 on recording equipment in road transport, comprises the driving time, all other periods of work, the period of availability, breaks in work and, where the driver divides his daily rest into two or three separate periods, such a period, provided that it does not exceed one hour. The “daily working period” commences at the time when the driver activates the tachograph following a weekly or daily rest period, or, if the daily rest is divided into separate periods, following the rest period of at least eight hours’ duration. It ends at the beginning of a daily rest period or, if the daily rest is divided into separate periods, at the beginning of a rest period extending over a minimum of eight consecutive hours.
The term “day”, within the meaning of Council Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85 of 20 December 1985 on the harmonization of certain social legislation relating to road transport, and of Regulation No 3821/85, must be understood as equivalent to the term “period of 24 hours”, which refers to any period of that duration which commences at the time when the driver activates the tachograph following a weekly or daily rest period.
that why i said it and that why the term (24 hour period) is now in the regs 561/2006
Coffeeholic:
delboytwo wrote:that would mead a 24 hour period could be only 1 hour or even less.
yes for got the rest
It couldn’t, it will always contain a rest period and the minimum rest period is 9 hours, so it can never be less than 9 and a bit hours.
Stop !!! Go back and look. We know what you meant, but its different from what you said. A 24 hour period is NOT a period between rests !! Thats all Del, i think you explained it wrong.
Stop !!! Go back and look. We know what you meant, but its different from what you said. A 24 hour period is NOT a period between rests !! Thats all Del, i think you explained it wrong.
so your saying that its not between rests
lets look at it following the rest so you put you chart in and activate it and the next the the 24 hour period start is when you put the chart in and activate it, is that not between rests
so going on that if you put you chart in at 00.00 and worked for 1 hour and then put it on rest for 9 hours and the put an other chart in following that rest that would make the 24 hour period was infact 10 hours and then a new 24 hour period as started
