killsville:
Coffeeholic:
I did sort of predict in my first post that someone would be along claiming that the 5th wheel was relevant.
The fifth wheel argument is only relevant to driving a tractor unit on a car licence, if I am not mistaken.
I think that was correct before licence categories were changed from class 1,2,3 to C & C&E - not sure its valid now
ROG:
The information on the law regarding the driving of tractor units came directly from the Leicestershire police force traffic commercial section.
With a gross tactor weight unit of 6.8 tonnes and NO USABLE fifth wheel plate it can be driven on a C1 (7.5 tonne) licence.
If still in doubt, try asking this question on the TRAFFIC ANSWERS site.
err, thatâs not whatâs being debated here is it?
Jonathan.
LGV C+E
DSA ADI
RoSPA Gold (twice)
Ex LGV Instructor
Ex Trade Plater
Ex O/D
7 driving tests passed 1st time.
ROG:
With a gross tactor weight unit of 6.8 tonnes and NO USABLE fifth wheel plate it can be driven on a C1 (7.5 tonne) licence.
That wasnât the question though. We are talking about driving a tractor unit on a class 2 licence (i.e. C, NOT C1).
Paul
repton:
ROG:
With a gross tactor weight unit of 6.8 tonnes and NO USABLE fifth wheel plate it can be driven on a C1 (7.5 tonne) licence.That wasnât the question though. We are talking about driving a tractor unit on a class 2 licence (i.e. C, NOT C1).
Paul
C1 = 7.5 tonne max GVW
C = all rigid LGVs (including C1)
C+E = artics & rigids with trailers
ROG:
C1 = 7.5 tonne max GVW
C = all rigid LGVs (including C1)
C+E = artics & rigids with trailers
really 
never knew that 
what about the actual question ?
Sometimes itâs easier to stop digging and admit you were wrong
C1 = 7.5 tonne max GVW
C = all rigid LGVs (including C1)
C+E = artics & rigids with trailers
what you have put there reads that you can drive it with a C license then, cos a unit with no trailer is a rigid,
youâre contradicting yourself
This query has been covered many times and my answer will always be the same
No you cannot.
I asked at the DSA the DVLA and the Police and although it is a bit vague it ends up that an artic unit is classed as a class one vehicle and must have a class one driver. Yes I know its stupid but there you are.
Sorry to disagree with you Coffee but if it was the case that a tractor unit was covered by a cat C licence due to it being a large rigid then why do we have to get a completely different licence to drive a coach? Your Rigid truck licence does not cover you for coaches any more than it does a traactor unit.
I must admit the way it is written it is most confusing and could be argued either way.
We used to be able to drive a bus or coach if it were not for hire or reward but after they changed all the licencing regs then it changed. A bus or coach is also a rigid vehicle but you cant drive it on a truck licence.
The only time it crosses over is if you have an automatic coach licence and pass in a manual truck then that upgrades the coach licence. You E licence covers you for either D+E or C+E as long as the weight is right.
But what about B+E??
Passing a car and trailer does not automatically upgrade your Cat C to a C+E does it?
It would be interesting to see someone make a test case out of driving a unit on a Cat C licence to see what the outcome would be. I reckon it would be thrown out due to the way the rules are written and totally unclear.
Mothertrucker:
if it was the case that a tractor unit was covered by a cat C licence due to it being a large rigid then why do we have to get a completely different licence to drive a coach? Your Rigid truck licence does not cover you for coaches any more than it does a traactor unitâŚ
as I understood that was because one was a Large GOODS Vehicle whilst the other a PASSENGER Carrying Vehicle hence the difference in catagories and tests
Mothertrucker:
but if it was the case that a tractor unit was covered by a cat C licence due to it being a large rigid then why do we have to get a completely different licence to drive a coach?
Because legally a coach is NOT a goods vehicle but a tractor unit is.
First I must thank everyone arguing for ânoâ. Iâve had much of amusement reading these messages on this subject which regularly seems to raise quite heated discussion.
Mothertrucker:
It would be interesting to see someone make a test case out of driving a unit on a Cat C licence to see what the outcome would be. I reckon it would be thrown out due to the way the rules are written and totally unclear.
I wonder how that case would differ from case where you are driving, lets say, 26 tonne rigid vehicle with box body and hitch for drag type trailer and you only have cat C license? Only differences coming to my mind are that tractor unit is lighter and not so awkward than that box body vehicle. Both of these are likely to be rated for same maximum weight when running solo or with trailer so that canât be the reason.
Then I happen to know that with Finnish (or should I say with EU approved ) Cat C driving license one can legally drive tractor unit (with working fifth wheel) in every country on EU just like C+E gives you permission to tow trailer with a goods vehicle in all of these countries. I would be very surprised if vehicle equipped with mechanism to couple it with trailer would be considered as vehicle with trailer over there.
Mothertrucker:
This query has been covered many times and my answer will always be the same
No you cannot.
I asked at the DSA the DVLA and the Police and although it is a bit vague it ends up that an artic unit is classed as a class one vehicle and must have a class one driver. Yes I know its stupid but there you are..
Wrong wrong wrong wrong WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!
like id said before i drove units on a category C licence I was not pulling a trailer (E) âŚSo i was not required to have a C + E
simple reallyâŚa GOODS vehicle above the gvw 3.5 tonnes but upto 7.5 tonnes requires a C1
A GOODS vehicle over 7.5 tonnes requires a C
If you want to tow a trailer over 750 kgs you require the E catagory. Hence C + E
An artic unit is a goods vehicle over 7.5 tonnes gvw and therefore requires a cat C licence if you want to pull a trailer with that unit then you will require the E catagory on your licence
Its exactly the same as a wagon and drag without the trailer on it is just a goods vehicle over 7.5 tonnes gvw a class C âŚhowever stick a trailer (over 750kg) on it and it becomes a class C + E
killsville:
The fifth wheel argument is only relevant to driving a tractor unit on a car licence, if I am not mistaken.
Yep, thatâs what I meant about the plate being removed and it making it an incomplete motor vehicle. It could well have changed with the licence changes, I couldnât be arsed looking it up though as it wasnât relevant to this question.
ROG:
The information on the law regarding the driving of tractor units came directly from the Leicestershire police force traffic commercial section.
With a gross tactor weight unit of 6.8 tonnes and NO USABLE fifth wheel plate it can be driven on a C1 (7.5 tonne) licence.
And Leicestershire Police are probably correct but that is not answering the question that was asked here
ROG:
If still in doubt, try asking this question on the TRAFFIC ANSWERS site.
Itâs okay, Iâm not in any doubt as this question has been covered on here before and advice sought from various authorities and they confirm a Class C licence is all that is required for a solo tractor unit.
Mothertrucker:
This query has been covered many times and my answer will always be the same
No you cannot.
Well your answer will always be wrong then.
Mothertrucker:
I asked at the DSA the DVLA and the Police and although it is a bit vague it ends up that an artic unit is classed as a class one vehicle and must have a class one driver.
That just shows that the people you asked are out of date with regards the regulations, there is no such thing as a Class 1 licence these days so a LGV cannot be classed as Class 1. It can only be classed as a Class C or a Class C+E vehicle, if it isnât towing a trailer it isnât a C+E. If it was it would also mean that holders of a class C licence would not be able to drive a rigid vehicle fitted with a draw bar hitch. No one ever questions the right to drive a rigid with a draw bar hitch, only the solo tractor unit for some reason. Remember the class C+E is for all trailers not just articulated, there is no longer any difference between articulated trailers and other types as there was in the days of Class1, 2 and 3. These days, as you know, you can take your C+E in a draw bar outfit then drive articulated outfits without a further test. That wasnât the case before the licence changes. People should really forget about Class 1 and Class 2 because that is where the confusion comes in. When you think about it there is actually only one type of licence required to drive Large Goods Vehicles these days and that is a Class C, with the +E bit being added when you have passed the extra entitlement to tow a trailer.
I and dennisw1 both asked the DVLA the last time this was debated and they confirmed that a solo tractor unit is a rigid goods vehicle and a Class C licence is all that is required to drive it. You can see their answer to dennisw1 in the thread that DenisF posted the link to.
Mothertrucker:
Sorry to disagree with you Coffee but if it was the case that a tractor unit was covered by a cat C licence due to it being a large rigid then why do we have to get a completely different licence to drive a coach? Your Rigid truck licence does not cover you for coaches any more than it does a traactor unit.
That is obvious a LGV licence is for goods vehicles and a PCV is for passenger vehicles and as a coach isnât a goods vehicle the LGV doesnât cover it.
Mothertrucker:
It would be interesting to see someone make a test case out of driving a unit on a Cat C licence to see what the outcome would be. I reckon it would be thrown out due to the way the rules are written and totally unclear.
There will never be a test case as one isnât needed. The rules are very simple and very clear. A tractor unit when not pulling a trailer is a rigid goods vehicle and the licence that is required for rigid goods vehicles is a Class C
Neil, i could tell when you read this thread. I could hear the sigh from here !!! I naturally get more cynical as i get older, when people in the know get it so wrong it makes me worse!! I donât know how you keep a level head with them.
Mike-C:
Neil, i could tell when you read this thread. I could hear the sigh from here !!!
You ainât wrong.
Mike-C:
I naturally get more cynical as i get older, when people in the know get it so wrong it makes me worse!! I donât know how you keep a level head with them.
Nor do I sometimes. Anyway I have just emailed VOSA and the DVLA, again, and will post the replies when I get them. Mind you that wonât stop people ignoring the official view and sticking with the MMTM version.
Coffeeholic:
Mike-C:
Neil, i could tell when you read this thread. I could hear the sigh from here !!!You ainât wrong.
Mike-C:
I naturally get more cynical as i get older, when people in the know get it so wrong it makes me worse!! I donât know how you keep a level head with them.Nor do I sometimes.
MMTM, MEBP we could start our own language Neil 
montana man:
MMTM, MEBP we could start our own language Neil
We could, and indeed there is a degree of crossover in the two examples above.
Iâll go with Neil on this one.
If it ainât pulling a trailer it doesnât need a C + E.
And as for the DSA, they tend to make up their own rules as it suits them.
Take, as an example, a âmodernâ car transporter. It is essentially an artic unit, fitted with ramps, that pulls a drawbar trailer. Remove the trailer and, whilst it would be â â â â difficult to load or unload, one would assume that it could be used for a Cat C test. After all, it is an LGV that carries a load. Wrong. It doesnât comply with the Minimum Test Vehicle requirements of being a not less than 9 metres (?) in length.
Coaches have been mentioned. Take a coach that has been reduced to 8 seats (or less), and the rearmost part has been given over to the transportation for competition purposes of cars/bikes/quad bikes/flies on a wall. It becomes an LGV and subject to a Cat C Licence, because it is âcarrying a loadâ.
The variations are almost inexhaustible. Imagine the example of a âlargeâ vehicle converted to, for instance, a Comms vehicle, or a Decontamination vehicle. Less than 8 seats. Itâs not carrying a âloadâ. Itâs not carrying âpassengersâ. Itâs a âHeavy Motor Carâ.
Regardless of what the various bodies say, until the individual matters have been âtestedâ by the Courts, the disagreements will remain.
Take, as an example, a âmodernâ car transporter. It is essentially an artic unit, fitted with ramps, that pulls a drawbar trailer. Remove the trailer and, whilst it would be â â â â difficult to load or unload, one would assume that it could be used for a Cat C test. After all, it is an LGV that carries a load. Wrong. It doesnât comply with the Minimum Test Vehicle requirements of being a not less than 9 metres (?) in length.
so you cant take a cat C (rigid) test in a vehicle less than 29.5 ft ?
biggusdickusgb:
Take, as an example, a âmodernâ car transporter. It is essentially an artic unit, fitted with ramps, that pulls a drawbar trailer. Remove the trailer and, whilst it would be â â â â difficult to load or unload, one would assume that it could be used for a Cat C test. After all, it is an LGV that carries a load. Wrong. It doesnât comply with the Minimum Test Vehicle requirements of being a not less than 9 metres (?) in length.
so you cant take a cat C (rigid) test in a vehicle less than 29.5 ft ?
itâs 7 metres for vehicles registered before 1/10/03 and 8 metre after that
Denis F:
biggusdickusgb:
Take, as an example, a âmodernâ car transporter. It is essentially an artic unit, fitted with ramps, that pulls a drawbar trailer. Remove the trailer and, whilst it would be â â â â difficult to load or unload, one would assume that it could be used for a Cat C test. After all, it is an LGV that carries a load. Wrong. It doesnât comply with the Minimum Test Vehicle requirements of being a not less than 9 metres (?) in length.
so you cant take a cat C (rigid) test in a vehicle less than 29.5 ft ?
itâs 7 metres for vehicles registered before 1/10/03 and 8 metre after that
And for the later registered vehicles they should also have a box type body which is where the car transporter would fall down I think.