Perhaps he might start to belive that Lewis Gardner & Son paved the way to present day engines, Im not knocking him for his views & comments, I think he should start to drink single Malts just to get him in the league as we are are, 
RegardsLarry.
Bewick:
ramone:
Bewick:
Yes we all agree now rev up and [zb] off !
Do you think nurse has sedated him Dennis , or just a straight jacket or a padded cell ?
I believe he gets a shot of Horse Tranquilizer when he plays up and at Full Moon it’s the Straight Jacket as well !
I blame anorak and cav i think they have pushed him over the edge , years of work from the nurses all trashed in 40 odd pages
Our tormentor is still extant, as a perusal of his profile will show. It will also show some interesting statistics- 7 posts per day; 1% of all posts! 
To put that in context, Covid19 has infected less than 0.8% of the population:
[zb]
anorak:
Our tormentor is still extant, as a perusal of his profile will show. It will also show some interesting statistics- 7 posts per day; 1% of all posts!
Oh !!! So you dont think he’s given up yet , maybe he is googling right now trying to prove his posts are correct , he could be a while with that one
TruckNetUK. Old Time Lorries. The Carryfast Engine Design Discussion. Page 44 . VALKYRIE .
Baron Lord Donald Gresham Stokes Of Leyland,British Leyland Motor Corporation,Leyland Motors Ltd,AEC Ltd,Rover,Triumph,Jaguar,Austin,Morris,Scammell,etc.
Thursday,26th November,2020.
I haven’t posted on TruckNetUK for some time,as I’ve been involved with radio
aerials,shortwave radio and communications receivers. The Carryfast Engine Design
Discussion Thread covers many subjects mostly directly or indirectly related to each other,but
I’ve refrained until now from posting in…so here are the facts on most,if
not all,of the subjects covered by Carryfast,[ZB]Anorak,Ramone,CAV551,Gingerfold,EssexPete,FodenWay,et al in this thread.
This post is divided in to 11 sections:-
1:-
BMC = BRITISH MOTOR CORPORATION AND BRITISH LEYLAND REAR WHEEL DRIVE AND FRONT WHEEL DRIVE MOTORCARS.Front wheel drive made them great road holders.
2:-
AEC ROUTEMASTER,THE PTEs,THE NATIONAL BUS COMPANY,THE BUS GRANT,ONE-PERSON-OPERATION,Etc.
3:-
AEC. BUILDERS OF LONDON’S BUSES,MOTORCOACHES AND TROLLEYBUSES - but this famous
and proud slogan went a lot deeper than that! 
4:-
AEC AV760-AH760 - AEC-LEYLAND TL12 - AEC-LEYLAND TL12 FLEXITORQUE 12.47-LITRE DIESEL-OIL ENGINE.
5:-
SCAMMELL USED AEC DIESEL-OIL ENGINES.
6:-
ROLLS-ROYCE DIESEL-OIL ENGINE DIVISION WAS PART OF ROLLS-ROYCE MOTORS HOLDINGS LTD - NOT STATE OWNED.
7:-
FANTASY LAND.
With respect Carryfast,do you believe in the Illuminati ? 
8:-
CARRYFAST.ITS TIME FOR YOU TO REALISE SOME OBJECTIVE REALITY AND FACTS ABOUT
MICHAEL EDWARDES,MARGARET THATCHER,
VOLVO,PACCAR,LEYLAND,IVECO,RENAULT,GENERAL MOTORS,Etc.
9:-
WHO’S WHO OF THE TOP MANAGEMENT OF LEYLAND-BRITISH LEYLAND-BL-LEYLAND VEHICLES-ROVER-LEYLAND DAF AND VOLVO-LEYLAND,WITH THE PERIODS OF OFFICE.
10:-
WHO KILLED THE BRITISH MOTOR INDUSTRY?
11:-
LAWRENCE DUNBAR AND LAWRENCE GARDNER & SONS AND THEIR GARDNER DIESEL OIL ENGINES.
BMC = BRITISH MOTOR CORPORATION AND BRITISH LEYLAND REAR WHEEL DRIVE AND FRONT WHEEL DRIVE MOTORCARS.Front wheel drive made them great road holders.
Morris Mini Minor and Austin Seven,otherwise known as the Mini and indeed eventually
became the Mini marque in its own right from 1969.1959-2000
The much-loved,classic and revolutionary Mini motorcar,nippy,trendy,stylish,a classic icon of
The Swinging Sixties,even an IN CAR with The Jet Set,won many
a motor rally and a homage and honor was paid to it in the great film,The Italian Job. And its
still in production built by BMW,several upsized redesigned Mini models have
been in production from 2001. It is indeed a cult motorcar.
The British Ford Motor Company bought a Mini,stripped it down,did a cost analysis of it and
discovered BMC was losing £30 on every single Mini built.This gave birth to the
famous slogan: Mini Cars Make Mini Profits.
Neverthless the Mini was a major influence in the swing to front wheel drive in motorcars by
many of the world’s motorcar manufacturers.
WIKIPEDIA says: In 1999 the Mini was voted the second most influential car of the 20th Century, behind the Ford Model T.UNQUOTE.
The original Mini is the most successful best-selling British motorcar to date.5.3 million
produced from 1959-2000.
Morris,Austin 1100-1300 Sedan-Saloon Motorcars.1962-1974 The UK’s number one selling car
for several years,then the Ford Cortina took over as the UK’s number one
selling motorcar. The BMC 1100-1300s were attractive looking family cars,and had Hydrolastic
suspension which improved suspension standards in cars.
The British Ford Motor Company again did another cost analysis,this time on a Morris,Austin
1100 Saloon Motorcar and discovered that it was underpriced.
Ford then investigated the finances of BMC and found out that the corporation was heading
for bankruptcy - Ford was proved correct: BMC-BMH was on the verge
of going bankrupt during its merger with Leyland in early 1968. The merger (it was actually a
takeover by Leyland) was nearly called off.
ADO 16 = Amalgamated Drawing Office - some say Austin Drawing Office - ADO code numbers for new motorcar models in development.
WIKIPEDIA:-
Austin: 1100, 1300 and 1300GT
Austin: 11/55,[5] America, Apache, De Luxe, Glider and Victoria
Innocenti: Austin I4 and Austin I4S [6]
Innocenti: Morris IM3 and Morris IM3S [6]
Innocenti I5
MG: 1100, 1275 and 1300
MG: Princess,[7] Sports Sedan,[5] 1100S and MG-S 1300
Morris: 1100, 1300 and 1300GT
Morris: 11/55,[8] 1100S, Marina [5] and Marina GT
Riley: Kestrel, Kestrel 1275, Kestrel 1300 and 1300 [9]
Vanden Plas: Princess 1100, Princess 1275 and Princess 1300
Wolseley: 1100, 1275 and 1300
Wolseley: 11/55 [5] & Wesp [5]
2.1 million combined production.
Morris,Austin 1800 Sedan-Saloon Motorcars.Austin,1964-1975; Morris,1966-1975;Wolseley 18-85,1967-1972.373,356,combined production.
A roomy and relatively big motorcar with loads of leg room in the front,but especially in the
rear. It could have done with improved styling,but it was quite a popular car model.
The LandCrab.
NOTE: I could choose loads of different BMC-BMH,British Leyand,BL,etc,motorcars for this
post,but I’m just a picking a few that have been most discussed in this thread,and that
especially interests me.
Austin 3-Litre Sedan-Saloon Motorcar,rear wheel drive.1967-1971.An impressive and
interesting large motorcar,designed to compete with the Ford Zephyr and Zodiac
and Vauxhall Cresta,but unfortunately it lacked their good looks and pizazz. Its 3-litre engine
sounded nice!
9,992 produced.
Morris Minor Saloon Motorcar,Morris Minor 1000 Saloon Motorcar,also avalible as a
Convertible and as a Estate Car.Rear wheel drive.Periodically modified.1948-1971.
Set a new standard for handling and roadholding in small motorcars.Also set a new standard
for engine accessibility making it easy to work on.
A very popular and attractive motorcar,and a collectors car.
Production numbers:1948-1953 Minor MM Saloon,176,002; 1948-1953 Minor MM Tourer (all
Minor Tourers to 1968,74,960); 1952-1956 Minor,Series II Saloon,269,838:
1953-1956 Minor,Series II Traveller (production all Travellers,215,331); 1956-1962 Minor
1000,all types,544,058; 1962-1971 Minor 1000,all types,303,443.
Morris Marina Saloon,Coupé,Estate Motorcar.1971-1980.Morris Ital Saloon Motorcar.Rear
wheel drive.1980-1984. Unfortunately the last motorcar model of the Morris
marque. The Marina was an attractive and popular motorcar.Its been called dull,but
thousands of satisfied motorists bought it,received reliable service from it and it became a
classic family car. The Ital,a revamped Marina,although not as attractive as the Marina,carried
on the Marina tradition.After the Ital production ceased yet another great
marque name,Morris,unfortunately passed in to history.
1971-1978 Marina 1.3 Mk1 and Mk2,515,888, 1.8 Mk1 and Mk2,293,724; 1971-1978 Marina 1.8TC/GT/HL/Special,80,987; 1978-1980 Marina 1.3 & 1.7,59,107;
1977-1980 Marina Diesel,4-Door,Saloon Motorcar,3,870. Export only model. 1980-1984 Ital Saloon,175,276.
Austin Allegro Saloon,Estate Motorcar.Front wheel drive.1973-1983. The styling doesn’t work
that well,and its original steering wheel didn’t work well too - it wasn’t even
a wheel! It was something the British Leyland marketing division called Quartic and was a
curved square that had a lumpy feel to it and,didn’t pass through your hands
and fingers smoothly,all of which hindered steering the car properly. The Quartic was quickly
replaced with a proper round steering wheel 
The upmarket Vanden Plas Princess 1500,1750 Saloon Motorcar version of the Allegro was
the best model. It was medium priced,had a better looking front end with a classy
smart traditional radiator grille,leather seating,wood trim,special paint jobs and a more
powerful 1485 cc,OHC,4-cylinder petrol engine,later uprated to 1748 cc, and a 5-speed
gearbox.Hydragas all independent suspension on all Allegro models. Vanden Plas Princess
1500 version,1974-1980.
Austin Allegro nickname:All Aggro.
Allegro 1100/1300,Allegro 1500/1759,642,350. Vanden Plas Princess 1500,11,842.
Austin A99 Westminster Farina Sedan-Saloon Motorcar,1959-1961. 13,410.
Austin A110 Westminster Mk1 Farina Sedan-Saloon Motorcar,1961-1964.
Austin A110 Westminster MkII Farina Sedan-Saloon Motorcar,1964-1968. 26,105 Mk1s & MkIIs.
Princess 3-Litre Farina Sedan-Saloon Motorcar, 1959-1960. Rebadged as:-
Vanden Plas Princess 3-Litre Mk1 Farina Sedan-Saloon Motorcar,1960-1961. 4,719 covering 1959-1961.
Vanden Plas Princess 3-Litre Mk2 Farina Sedan-Saloon Motorcar,1961-1964. 7,984.
Vanden Plas Princess 4-Litre R Farina Sedan-Saloon Motorcar,1964-1968. 6,555.
Wolseley 6-99 Farina Sedan-Saloon Motorcar,1959-1961. 13,108.
Wolseley 6-110 Series I Farina Sedan-Saloon Motorcar,1961-1964. 10,800.
Wolseley 6-110 Series II Farina Sedan-Saloon Motorcar,1964-1968.Rear wheel drive.13,301.
These big,impressive and good looking motorcars were grander and better looking than the
smaller Morris Oxford,Austin Cambridge,etc,Farina models.
The Vanden Plas 4-Litre R Farina was a luxury version and was powered by a Rolls-Royce
FB60,3909 cc,IOE,6-Cylinder Petrol Engine,and was probably the
most desirable of these big Farina models. The R stands for Rolls-Royce. The Wolseley
marque had been very popular with the United Kingdom’s police forces
since the 1930s,and the police was still buying the marque in the 1960s including the
Wolseley 6-110 Series I and Series II cars - you can see a few of these in the
1987 Phil Collins film,Buster,about one of the Great Train Robbers of that name.
And to think:all of these big Farina models were replaced by the comparitively austere-
looking Austin 3-Litre!
THE BEAUTIFUL ELATION 
:-
A superlative experience :On a Summer’s sunny afternoon a glamourous Wolseley 6-110 Series II
Farina Sedan Police Motorcar is travelling effortlessly up King Street main road through the
town,five or six young police officers in white shirt-sleeve dress order are in conversation as
they luxuriate and enjoy the ride in the Wolseley,as it travels up that hill,passing a very
interested observer walking up on the pavement on the right hand side of the road while
doing so. The observer had looked down the road and saw this
motorcar coming up the road - the big Wolseley motorcar,the police officers,the whole scene
had an air of superiority, glamour and indomitability about them! It had the air of
the elite - a presidential or royal motorcade.What a treasured scene…
A.
Wolseley 6,110 MKI Farina,4-Door,Luxury Sedan-Saloon Motorcar,822 EVA,Lanarkshire,10-11,1962.A classic Police Wolseley motorcar.One of these in a similar livery was the central part of The Beautiful Elation.Pinterest.1#
B.
.Wolseley 6,110 MKII Farina,4-Door,Luxury Sedan-Saloon Motorcar,MSO 756,Morayshire,3-1964. This big,beautiful and impressive model was one of many Wolseley models operated by the Police.Car-From-UK.Com.1#
Triumph Motorcars.
Triumph 2000 Mk1 Sedan-Saloon,Estate Motorcar,RWD,1963-1969.An attractive motorcar with
a silky smooth,twin carburettor,1998 cc,OHV,6-cylinder engine,which came from
the Standard Vanguard. Triumph 2000 Mk2 Sedan-Saloon,Estate Motorcar.1969-1977.
Triumph 2.5 PI Mk1 Sedan,Estate Motorcar,1968-1969. Had 2498 cc Petrol Injection
engine.Early fuel injection cars were troublesome. Triumph 2.5 PI MkII Sedan-Saloon,Estate
Motorcar,1969-1975. Triumph 2500TC Sedan-Saloon,Estate Motorcar,1974-1977.The 2500TC
twin carburettor version. Triumph 2500S Sedan-Saloon,Estate Motorcar,1975-1977. Replaced
the 2.5 PI with its troublesome fuel injection problems.
324,652 produced.
Triumph Stag,V8,2-Door,2+2-Seater,Luxury Gran Turismo,Convertible-Hardtop Coupé
Motorcar,RWD,1970-1977. A classy good looking grand tourer motorcar,whose 2997 cc,
OHC,V8-cylinder,145 BHP petrol engine produced glorious sports car engine music! I’ve
travelled in one of these motorcars and I was impressed with its big,wide,comfortable,
leather seats,its solid build,its speed,power,accelleration,the music of its engine,etc. It was a
great shame about its engine problems - blowing gaskets,overheating,etc,and
some Stags were re-engined with specially fitted Rover 3.5-Litre V8 Engines. But apparently
the Triumph Stag V8 engine problems have now been solved.
During the development of the Stag the engineers seriously considered allocating the Rover
3.5-Litre V8 Engine as the Stag’s power unit,but it was found to be too
physically big apparently. But,as I’ve already pointed out,due to Stag V8 engine
problems,some Stags were re-engined with specially fitted Rover 3.5-Litre V8 Engines!
25,939 produced.
Triumph Acclaim Sedan-Saloon Motorcar,FWD,133,626 made,1981-1984. WIKIPEDIA QUOTE:The Triumph Acclaim is a front-wheel drive compact family saloon made by British Leyland (BL) from 1981 to 1984. It is based on the Honda Ballade and used a Honda-designed engine, but met United Kingdom component-content requirements. It was the final model of the Triumph marque, and the first fundamentally Japanese car to be assembled in Europe.
The Acclaim was also a major turnaround point for BL itself, with the car sporting good reliability and build quality from the outset - a stark contrast to the quality issues which had plagued the Austin Allegro and Morris Marina during the 1970s. The Acclaim holds the record for the lowest percentage of warranty claims for a BL car.
UNQUOTE.
It was a great shame what happened to the Triumph motorcar marque.I myself have always
thought that the Triumph name,considering its another word for victory,is a far
more appropriate - and better sounding - marque name for a sports car than the MG initials.
MG,which stand for Morris Garages,is an overwritten and overpraised
marque anyway! Anybody would think it was a Ferrari! the way some people go on… MG
has hardly ever consistently approached the grandeur of Ferrari in its life! both
in sports car engineering terms and motor sport achievements. Actually,I do like MG
motorcars,but I do not go over the top like some people do.
Rover Motorcars.
Rover.One of Britain’s Fine Cars,to quote Rover’s correct advertising slogan.The Rover
marque was the United Kingdom’s premier medium-priced motorcar,a favourite with
with well-waged people and ministry people alike.Rover built such well-loved classic cars:
P1,P2,P3,P4 ‘Auntie’,P5,P5B,P6,P6B,SD1 and at least some of the later
Rovers will also become classics too if they aren’t already - especially the P4-inspired Rover
75 model,which was the final Rover motorcar model.
Rover 3.5-Litre V8 P5B Sedan-Saloon Motorcar,Coupé,1968. Rover 3 ½-Litre V8 P5B Sedan-
Saloon Motorcar,Coupé,1969-1973.
69,141 produced.
C.
Rover P5B 3.5-Litre V8,4-Door,Luxury Sedan-Saloon Motorcar,NVJ 249G.Beautiful.Rover.One Of Britain’s Fine Cars slogan was absolutely so very right! CarAndClassic.Co.UK 3#
Rover 2000 P6 Sedan-Saloon Motorcar,1964-1966. Rover 2000SC P6 Sedan-Saloon Motorcar,1967-1973. Rover 2000 Automatic,1967. Rover 2000SC,1968-1973.
Rover 2000TC,1967-1973. Rover 2200SC,1974-1977. Rover 2200SC Automatic,1974-1977. Rover 2200TC,1974-1977. Rover Three Thousand Five V8 P6B Sedan-Saloon Motorcar,1968-70. Rover 3500 V8 P6B Sedan-Saloon Motorcar,1971-1976. Rover 3500S V8 P6B Sedan-Saloon Motorcar,1972-1976.
322,302 produced.
The Rover P6 and P6B motorcar models are quite attractive,but a bit tinny-looking and don’t
look to be as strongly built as the Rover P4,P5 and P5B models.
The Rover 3.5 Litre V8 Petrol Engine. It started life as the American-built Buick 215 Engine. Wikipedia QUOTE:Rights to these engines were purchased by the British Rover Company and used in the 1967 Rover P5B that replaced the 3 L straight six Rover engined P5. Throughout the years, the Rover Co. which became part of British Leyland in 1968, and its successor companies constantly improved the engine making it much stronger and more reliable. Capacities ranged from 3.5 to 5.0 L (215 to 307 cu in). This engine was used for V8 versions of the MGB GT known as the GTV8. Rover also used the engine in the 1970 Range Rover. Morgan used the Rover version in its Plus 8.[8] American 215s have also been engine swapped into countless other platforms, especially Chevrolet Vegas[9] and later British cars including the MG RV8 in the 1990s,[10] Triumph TR8, and various sports sedans and sports cars by the MG Rover Group and specialist manufacturers such as TVR. The engine remains well-supported by enthusiast clubs, specialist parts suppliers, and by shops that specialize in conversions and tuning. UNQUOTE.
Rover P7,based on the P6,used as a testbed for developing straight six-cylinder engines and
also a 5-cylinder engine too.
Rover P8. During the late 1960s and early 1970s Rover was developing a good
looking,impressive and business-like luxury sedan-saloon motorcar.
Some cost-cutting was involved during its development which weakened the structural
integrity of the car,which resulted in it failing at least two
crash tests.Which proved to be the end of the P8 project.
Triumph Puma.
Rover P10.
The above two projects went in to competition with each other.The British Leyland
board,including Donald Stokes and John Barber,decided that the
Rover P10 was the best design,thus this was the motorcar that was developed in to the Rover
SD1.
Rover SD 1= Specialist Division Motorcar models had superb styling by David Bache who was
inspired by the styling of the Ferrari Daytona and Ferrari GTC/4 Sports Cars.Rover had a
conservative image which was softened to a certain extent with the arrival of the Rover P6
and P6B motorcar models,but the conservative image was completely and stunningly
eliminated by the bang up to date - and then some - futuristic,aerodynamic,exciting and
beautiful Rover SD1 motorcar! Suddenly,Aunty had become Barbarella! the famous space
film heroine of the same name,beautifully played by
the brilliant actress Jane Fonda
The Rover SD1 was produced from 1976 to 1986,suffered quality control problems at first but
these were gradually solved,and although it never sold in the numbers expected,it was still a
good seller,was a favourite patrol car with the Police,had considerable success at various
motor sport events and won the Car Of The Year Award 1977. And these are the facts.
Rover SD1 Sedan-Saloon Hatchback Aerodynamic Motorcar Models List 1976-1986:-
Rover 2000
Rover 2300
Rover 2300 S
Rover 2300 SE
Rover 2400 SD Turbo
Rover 2600
Rover 2600 S
Rover 2600 SE
Rover 2600 Vanden Plas
Rover 3500
Rover 3500 SE
Rover 3500 Vanden Plas
Rover 3500 Vanden Plas EFi
Rover V8-S
Rover Vitesse
303,345 produced.
D.
Rover SD1 3500 Vitesse V8,5-Door,6-Light,Hatchback Aerodynamic Sedan-Saloon Motorcar,B564 BCK.Aunty Rover transformed into the space age beautiful Barbarella .PistonHeads.1#
I am tempted to continue with this review of BMC-BMH-British Leyland,etc, motorcars,but I
haven’t got the time and there are other things that I want to say,namely about AEC,
Leyland,Scammell,engines,buses,motorcoaches,Conspiracy Theories,the Illuminati and all!
AEC ROUTEMASTER,THE PTEs,THE NATIONAL BUS COMPANY,THE BUS GRANT,ONE-PERSON-OPERATION,Etc.
By the late 1960s the front-engined half cab double decker bus design in the United
Kingdom,and in most export markets,was on its last legs:it was outmoded,rapidly becoming
obsolete and being replaced by the more cost-effective and more operationally efficient
rear-engined double decker bus. With enormous and radical changes being made to the
bus operating industry - the formations of the Passenger Transport Executives, the National
Bus Company,etc,the dropping of conductors in favour of one-person-operation,
and so on - all were brought about to increase operating efficiencies and save money. All of
which was the result of the 1968 Transport Act.
In order to further increase the success of this new practise of bus operating culture the
Labour Government introduced The Bus Grant: 25% of the cost of a new rear-engined
double decker bus or rear or underfloor-engined single decker bus was provided by the bus
grant just as long it complied with certain regulations such as certain lengths,that the
buses were suitable for one-person-operation,and so on.The bus grant was later increased to
50%. There were also grants for certain bus services.
Production of UK market front-engined double decker buses gradually stopped over a short
time period:AEC Regent,1969; AEC Routmaster,1968; Albion Lowlander,
1967;Bristol Lodekka,1968; Daimler CV,1968,UK,1971,export; Dennis
Jubilant,1977-1981,export; Dennis Loline,1967; Guy Arab,1969,UK,1971,export; Guy Victory
J,1973-1975,export; Guy (renamed Leyland ) Victory MkII,1978-1981,export; Leyland
Titan,1969.
So,Carryfast,now you know why they stopped making the AEC Routemaster.
Thus the United Kingdom double decker omnibus market was dominated by the rear-engined
Leyland Atlantean,Daimler Fleetline and Bristol VR models,and rear-engined
single decker buses - especially the Leyland National.
The conservative and traditional London Transport continued to operate the front-engined
half cab AEC Regent III RT Double Decker Omnibus until Saturday,7th April,1979.
The AEC Routemaster soldiered on in London until December 2005,but a few Routemasters
still operate a Routemaster heritage omnibus service in London today.
London Transport operated a batch of Leyland Atlantean XA Class,Front Entrance,Double
Decker Omnibuses from 1965,and also a batch of eight Daimler Fleetline XF
Class also from 1965,most if not all of these were O-M-O = One-Man-Operated…or,as I
prefer to say O-P-O = One-Person-Operated. Anyway,these experimental
batches (hence the X class designation) led the way to the London standard rear-engined
double decker omnibus,the Daimler Fleetline DMS Class The Londoner,in service from 1971
to 1993.
AEC Routemaster,PRV = Park Royal Vehicles,H41/31F,Front Entrance,Rear-Engined,Double
Decker Omnibus,KGY 4D,1966,London Transport FRM 1,entered service
in 1967,and used 60% of the Routemaster body parts. Its a great shame that this bus never
reached mass production,but there was supposed to be a big swing to single
decker buses in the very near future - the big swing never got into full swing,hence the
Leyland National never sold in the numbers expected - so Donald Stokes was
said to be against the FRM 1. There was actually a big swing to double deckers in the 1970s!
AEC. BUILDERS OF LONDON’S BUSES,MOTORCOACHES AND TROLLEYBUSES - but this famous
and proud slogan went a lot deeper than that!
Carryfast.You seem to keep referring to AEC Ltd,Windmill
Lane,Southall,Middlesex,England,United Kingdom,as just a manufacturer of buses who made
just the occasional lorry.You are wrong.AEC were world renowned as manufacturers of
lorries,buses,motorcoaches,military vehicles,trolleybuses,and industrial and marine diesel
engines - AEC were equally known for its lorries as it was for its omnibuses.Along with
Leyland,AEC was a market leader in heavy lorries,buses and motorcoaches,not only in the
United Kingdom,but also in certain export markets.AEC had a reputation of high quality
motor vehicle engineering,who had a very large and loyal customer base.
Many lorry,motorcoach and bus operators regarded AEC as being The Best. And the
incompetent and iniquitous British Leyland management criminally threw AEC
and its reputation,goodwill and sales away! Alienating a large number of potential customers
who then deserted Leyland vehicles and bought Volvos,Scanias,etc,instead!
It served Leyland right!! 
E.
AEC AEC #Associated-#Equipment-#Company #Lorries #Trucks #Buses #Motorcoaches #Trolleybuses #Engines.#First-#Class-#Pullman-#Travel.207.3#
AEC AV760-AH760 - AEC-LEYLAND TL12 - AEC-LEYLAND TL12 FLEXITORQUE 12.47-LITRE DIESEL-OIL ENGINE.
Carryfast.You are objectively totally wrong to call the above AEC 760 - AEC-Leyland TL12
Diesel-Oil Engine ‘junk’.All variants of this engine gave thousands and thousands of miles of
trouble-free service in AEC Mandator,AEC Mammoth Major,AEC Militant MkIII,Leyland
Marathon,Leyland Roadtrain,etc,lorries and AEC Reliance,etc,motorcoaches and buses -
industrial and marine versions gave thousands of hours of trouble-free service. Objective
facts.
The TL12-engined Leyland Marathon Mk2 was regarded as the best earner in many road
haulage fleets,including Scottish meat hauling outfits,just about the most critical
hauliers in the road transport business.
The editor of TRUCK Magazine,Pat Kennett,said that the TL12 was a fine engine: it was
economical,durable and reliable and set new economy and earnings records in
the Leyland Roadtrain T45 in roadtests against other makes and models of heavy motor trucks
in 1981.The Leyland Roadtrain won the Truck Of The Year Award in 1981.
Unfortunately,the Leyland Roadtrain never sold in the numbers that Leyland had hoped
for,which left the new purpose-built LAP = Leyland Assembly Plant factory with under
capacity. Rolls-Royce Eagle and ■■■■■■■ engines were offered - and took away some sales of
the TL12 Flexitorque engine,which rendered it uneconomic to produce.TL12 production
stopped in 1983. However,production of L11 and TL11 engines,which powered Leyland
motorcoaches,buses and lorries,carried on into 1988.
Carryfast,as Ramone has shown, there is only 5/16 in-8mm difference in the strokes of the
Leyland TL12 and Rolls-Royce Eagle engines,which is negligible,but the TL12’s
12,473 cc-761 CID compared to the Rolls-Royce Eagle’s 12,177 cc-743 CID makes a fairly big
difference of 296 cc,which gave the TL12 an advantage in cubic capacity
terms over the Rolls-Royce Eagle.And compensates for the slightly smaller stroke…if any
compensation is needed - as I say…the 8mm-5/16 stroke difference is negligible.
A four-stroke engine with a bigger cubic capacity than a four-stroke engine with a smaller
cubic capacity usually has the advantage in terms of power and torque,and the
overall efficiency of the engine is reinforced. You,Carryfast,are just splitting hairs over a
relatively tiny difference in strokes.
I admit in this particular case of engine design I could be wrong,as I am not a qualified engine
designer,I am the world’s worst at mathmatics and to a layman
the 8mm-5/16 stroke difference appears to be negligible.
F.
AEC AV760 - TL12 12.47 Litre Diesel-Oil Engine,5.37 in-136 mm Bore,5.59 in-142 mm Stroke. Rolls-Royce Eagle 12.17 Litre Diesel-Oil Engine,5.13 in-130 mm Bore,6 in-152 mm Stroke. 5.16 in-8mm difference in strokes on ruler. 1#
Carryfast,the AEC AV760 - TL12 Engine proved itself countless times in thousands of motor
vehicles,and in other applications, that it was an excellent diesel-oil engine.
Objective fact.And it will go down in the history books,if it hasn’t done so already,as a great
engine,regardless of your unnecessary,uncalled for and negative comments
about this great engine. You are being unreasonable. And don’t tell me that you have never
heard of long range planning and development:The decision to make the TL12
engine standard in the Leyland Roadtrain was almost certainly made three or four years
before the Roadtrain entered production! Who made the decision? Almost
certainly Ron Ellis or Des Pitcher.
G.
Leyland Marathon 2,4x2-4,Tanker-Bodied,Lorry,UFV 817V,Gilbraith Tankers,Accrington.According to TRUCK editor,Pat Kennett,many Marathon 2 TL12 operators said it was the best earner in their lorry fleets.AROnLine.3#
SCAMMELL USED AEC DIESEL-OIL ENGINES.
There are at least three instances of Scammell using AEC engines in it’s vehicles:1,Scammell
LD55 6x4 Dumptruck,which was a badge-engineered AEC 690 6x4 Dumptruck
with Leyland L12 Engine,2,Scammell Crusader.An AEC 800-Series V8 Diesel Engine was fitted
in the lighest version of this model,3,Scammell Contractor.An AEC AV1100N
305 BHP Diesel Engine was an engine option in this model.
ROLLS-ROYCE DIESEL-OIL ENGINE DIVISION WAS PART OF ROLLS-ROYCE MOTORS HOLDINGS LTD - NOT STATE OWNED.
In all my years of reading,studying and researching the history of motor vehicles of all types
and kinds,and buying loads of books in the process,I have never come
across the proposal that the Rolls-Royce Diesel-Oil Engine Division of Rolls-Royce Motors
Holdings Ltd should have been British Leyland’s in-house engine maker…
until that is…I read this The Carryfast Engine Design Discussion Thread.
This proposal was probably concocted by Carryfast during the ongoing debate about
engines,cars,etc in this thread,because I’ve never come across this British
Leyland take over of Rolls-Royce Diesel Engines proposal elsewhere.
Rolls-Royce went bust in 1971 and was saved and nationalized by the British Government. I’ll
let WIKIPEDIA explain what happened to Rolls-Royce motorcars,diesel engines,etc QUOTE:
1973 Rolls-Royce Motors[edit]
Rolls-Royce Motors Limited was incorporated on 25 April 1971, two and a half months after Rolls-Royce fell into receivership. Under the ownership of the receiver it began to trade in April 1971 manufacturing motor cars, diesel and petrol engines, coachwork and other items previously made by Rolls-Royce’s motor car and diesel divisions and Mulliner Park Ward. It continued to take precision engineering work on sub-contracts. In June 1971 it acquired all the business and assets used by the motor car and diesel divisions of Rolls-Royce and Mulliner Park Ward. Rolls-Royce Motors’ permitted uses of the various Rolls-Royce trade marks was very precisely defined.[2]
At the end of 1972 Rolls-Royce Motors employees in the United Kingdom were 5,855 in the
car division and 2,311 in the Diesel division, a total of 8,166 people.[2]
In May 1973 it was sold to Rolls-Royce Motors Holdings Limited in preparation for its public flotation.[2]
UNQUOTE.
It states in this Commercial Motor March 1973 article by Gibb Grace that British Leyland
wanted Rolls-Royce to remain independent,had no inclination to buy Rolls-Royce,it didn’t
have the money to do so and British Leyland was in the process of rationalizing.
archive.commercialmotor.com/arti … ndependent
Carryfast,you seem to be under the impression that Rolls-Royce Motors Holdings Ltd was
state-owned. It wasn’t. Rolls-Royce aero engines-gas turbines,engineering was state owned
from 1971 until 1987 when Rolls-Royce PLC entered the stock market and Margaret Thatcher’s
government offered Rolls-Royce shares for sale to the general public.
Rolls-Royce Motors Holdings made several bids for Fodens Ltd in early 1977 but nothing came
of those bids.Rolls-Royce Motors bought as many shares in the Gardner engine company as it
could,around 16%,but Hawker Siddeley bought Gardner. Rolls-Royce Motors Holdings Ltd
merged with the Vickers company in August 1980. The Rolls-Royce Diesel-Oil Engine Division
was sold to Perkins in 1984.
By 1980 Leyland Vehicles had spent at least £350 million of Government money on the new
LAP = Leyland Assembly Plant lorry factory,and on developing the Leyland Roadtrain T45
Heavy Motor Truck Range. Even if Leyland had wanted to,and it didn’t,Leyland did not have
the money to buy the Rolls-Royce diesel engine division. As the 1980s gathered pace
privatisation of companies ,especially of those that made up the Leyland
Group,became a Government priority after its General Election victory in 1983. So Rolls-Royce
diesel engines being Leyland’s in-house engine builder would have run dead against
government policy!
Bang goes another one of Carryfast’s fantasies!
H.
.Leyland Roadtrain,Leyland TL12 Flexitorque Diesel Oil - Engined,4x2-4,Bulk Tanker-Bodied,Articulated Lorry,A63 UGC,Blue Circle Cement.Rolls-Royce and ■■■■■■■ engine options took away many TL12 sales…AutoBritannia.3#
FANTASY LAND.
With respect Carryfast,do you believe in the Illuminati ? who are supposedly hell-bent in
taking over the world,but they never have,never do and never will. There are now several
groups operating under this name,but their getting nowhere fast
Conspiracy Theories,Conspiracy Theorists,the Illuminati,Fake News,Internet
Disinformation,etc,are all closely related to each other - conspiracy
theories are great fun,but their a load of self-concocted,sensationalistic and paranoid
nonsense!! And are wrong
Thus,Carryfast,are you a Conspiracy Theorist? Because some of the things that you come out
with strongly suggest that indeed you are a Conspiracy Theorist!
Here is a case,or several cases actually,in point:-
According to you there was a plan to sabotage all or some of British Leyland for the benefit
of ,what was then,West Germany and its industry.
There was also a plan to sell Leyland Vehicles to DAF long,long before it ever became a
reality. Michael Edwards was the villiain who wrecked the recovery plans and closed factories
down - considering all the poor management of British Leyland,all the hundreds of strikes of
BL workers,poor quality control,falling car sales,etc,Michael had no choice but to close the
factories down! And he succeeded seeing his reasonably successful recovery plan through! I
more or less repeat myself in regard to the last four lines a bit further down this post just to
get the objective facts through loud and clear.
Carryfast.Just where the hell did you get all this paranoid nonsense from? Its wrong. It came
from out of your Conspiracy Theorist-Fantasist Mind!
That’s where it came from. There were no espionage and sabotage plans to wreck British
Leyland Motor Corporation on behalf of Germany and other foreign countries. Your
conspiracy theories are wrong.
CARRYFAST.ITS TIME FOR YOU TO REALISE SOME OBJECTIVE REALITY AND FACTS ABOUT
MICHAEL EDWARDES,MARGARET THATCHER,
VOLVO,PACCAR,LEYLAND,IVECO,RENAULT,GENERAL MOTORS,Etc.
Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher QUOTE: Every family in the United Kingdom has
contributed the equivalent of £200 to British Leyland and such a
situation cannot continue. UNQUOTE.
Or in other words,from the beginning of government ownership in 1975 to the end of
government ownership in 1988,British Leyland-BL-Rover
received £3.6 Billion of government-taxpayers’ money - that is the equivalent of
£8,336,825,675,54 in today’s money of 2020.
Carryfast.This makes absolute nonsense out of your ludicrous assertion that there was a
conspiracy by the government to destroy British Leyland on behalf of West Germany,and
maybe some other foreign countries to help their industries,etc.
No decent, responsible and caring government would knowingly take part in such an
evil,scandalous and crackpot scheme : A.Waste precious billions
of pounds of taxpayers money,B.Destroy the British Motor Industry and leave suppliers in a
weakened or fatal state - all to help out a former enemy country! C. It would also be a gross
insult to the service people of the British Allies who fought against Germany during World
War Two,many of whom lost their lives! 
It just does not make any sense. But this is typical of the ludicrous concoctions and nonsense
conspiracy theorists wrongly come out with!!
There were at least eight times during Michael Edwardes’ five years at Leyland when the
whole of British Leyland could have collapsed in to oblivion within days. So why the hell
didn’t Michael Edwardes and the government let the whole of British Leyland go out of
business there and then?!!
Because both Michael Edwardes,who had been appointed by the Labour Government in
October 1977 as Chairman and CEO to try and save British Leyland,and the government
wanted to try and save British Leyland for the benefit of the British economy,British industry
and the British people in general.
And save British Leyland Sir Michael Edwardes and his team did! AEC had stopped making its
own range of lorries in 1977 - weeks before Michael Edwardes joined Leyland - leaving only
the Leyland Marathon lorry, military vehicles and AEC Reliance and Ranger motorcoach and
bus models in production,which stopped in April-May 1979.The AEC Southall factory was then
closed down. Michael Edwardes may well have ordered the closure,but by
then he had no choice:AEC,its products and factory had been suffering from a gross lack of
investment for years and had therefore been run down.
The wrong and misguided Ron Ellis was the guilty man who criminally closed AEC! -
Please QV further down this post.
Michael Edwardes astutely realised that the Ryder Report was unworkable and over-
optimistic.So Edwardes devised a long-term plan to save Leyland.
While it is true Michael Edwardes closed other British Leyland factories down in order to save
costs,he also confronted the militant trade unions and their spokesman,Derek Red Robbo
Robinson,and won! Which resulted in the dismissal of Robinson,far better union co-
operation with Leyland,a big increase in productivity,better
quality of products,a boost in the morale of the company,and so on,all of which greatly
helped in the recovery of the company. Unfortunately,thousands of people lost their
jobs,but that was largely as a result of running un-economic and overmanned
factories,that had suffered from years of under investment and outdated machinery,whose
workforce went on strike at the drop of a hat and also produced shoddy workmanship in
regard to quality control.
Michael Edwardes wanted a General Motors Corporation take over of British Leyland and a
merger with Vauxhall,but General Motors were not interested. But he did get British Leyland
in to a agreement with the Japanese Honda company to design and co-produce a range of
successful motorcars.
Back in 1973-1974 Ron Ellis had talks with the Italian Fiat company about Leyland becoming
one of the founding members of the Industrial Vehicles Corporation = IVECO,along with
Fiat,OM,Unic and Magirus-Deutz,but they couldn’t agree on the respective shareholdings.
Edwardes had another go of talks with Fiat and IVECO in 1978 with a view of Leyland
becoming a member of IVECO. He also had talks with Renault about a full-scale merger of
Renault with British Leyland. But both sets of talks failed because he was concerned about
Leyland’s loss of sovereignty - probably because the owner of British Leyland,the British
Government,wanted to keep Leyland British!
When Margaret Thatcher became Prime Minister in 1979 she made it clear that the
Government’s support of British Leyland was a heavy burden on the British economy,so she
wanted each of the various units of British Leyland privatised. Michael Edwardes being a
straight-talking,no-nonsense man,and nobody’s puppet Carryfast,resisted Thatcher’s wish
and kept British Leyland intact.Because he was astute to know that the much-maligned
Austin-Morris Division would not sell,and he told her so.He also asked her for £990 million to
fund the development of the LC10 Maestro and Montego motorcar models,which was
granted. His Metro motorcar was already up and running and a great success.
Margaret Thatcher became disillusioned and lost patience with Michael Edwardes because he
was seemingly asking for model development money all the time and his reluctance to sell
off each part of British Leyland. So she did not renew his contract and he left Leyland in
September 1982 - he appointed a new chairman that he knew would carry on his policies,Sir
Austin Bide.
Sir Michael Edwardes had achieved the impossible: because of his sharp,astute and no-
nonsense managment,along with the help of lots and lots of government money,he had
rescued the nearly dead British Leyland and turned it in to a respectable,productive and
reasonably successful motor vehicle manufacturing company that went back on to the world
stage After all,he was The Guardian’s Young Business Man Of The Year in 1975
He wrote a book about his time working at British Leyland and titled it BACK FOM THE
BRINK…and there’s no wonder he used that title…
It wasn’t until the arrival of new chairman and managing director,Sir Graham Day,in 1986 that
the privatisation of British Leyland really got under way.The Morris marque had been
dropped in 1984,the Austin marque was dropped in 1987,the former Austin Morris Division
was moved upmarket and the motorcars were sold under the Rover marque,all of which
made this division saleable! Indeed,the Rover Group was sold to British Aerospace in 1988!
Jaguar Daimler Cars had already been sold as a private company in 1984.
Ford had seriously thought about buying the Austin Rover Division in 1986,but nothing came
of it.
Leyland Vehicles nearly ended up being part of General Motors and Bedford,but the inclusion
of Land-Rover and Freight-Rover had to be part of the deal,and after this had been revealed
to the media a big public protest and Keep Land-Rover British campaign raged forth. The deal was off.
The American PACCAR company,makers of Foden,Kenworth and Peterbilt heavy motor
trucks,wanted to buy Leyland Vehicles but PACCAR’s proposal was dropped in favour of DAF
who actually bought Leyland Motor Trucks in 1987…the government threw in Freight-Rover
as a sweetner to clinch the deal.Charles Piggot,head of PACCAR,vowed that one day he
would return and buy all the lot! - DAF as well as Leyland!
His great vow - and dream - came true in 1996:DAF was bought and in 1998 Leyland Motor
Trucks was bought
WHO’S WHO OF THE TOP MANAGEMENT OF LEYLAND-BRITISH LEYLAND-BL-LEYLAND VEHICLES-ROVER-LEYLAND DAF AND VOLVO-LEYLAND,WITH THE PERIODS OF OFFICE.
What I’ve written below will act as a timeline and guide as to who were the top managers of
Leyland over a given period,but,in certain cases,it does not
necessarily mean that actions carried out were made on the orders of the manager at the
time of any particular action: some actions were carried
out as a result of long term planning by a previous manager.For example,AEC was closed
down in May 1979,but the running down of AEC began in 1975,if not before, under earlier
management.
Donald Stokes and Michael Edwardes were not the only principle managers-chairmen to run
Leyland-British Leyland,etc,and here below is a detailed list of no less than
thirty-four men who held senior and powerful positions within Leyland-British Leyland-BL-
Leyland Vehicles-Rover-Leyland DAF and Volvo-Leyland over the years. Some
remained in their positions for years and years,others stayed only a few months while others
lasted for one or two or three years more or less. Not all of the major decisions
were solely made by the chairman and/or chief executive alone - they were sometimes
made by the individual manager or collectively by the board. Each manager did have
a degree of autonomy. Some of the decisions were made for them by circumstances beyond
their control - the closure of the Workington factory was caused by the economic
recession of the early 1990s,for example. In fact I could have listed more than thirty-four
men,such as Sir William Lyons,George Turnbull,John Egan and John Barber,but
these worked on the motorcar side and I wanted to concentrate on the lorry,motorcoach and
bus side
Sir George Harriman,1908-1973.Officially he was British Leyland Motor Corporation’s first
chairman and chief executive officer,but behind the scenes his appointments
were only temporary:British Leyland formally came in to being in May 1968,Harriman had
agreed to step down in September 1968 and became President of the company,
nearly all of it was a face saving exercise. Donald Stokes took over and replaced Harriman as
chairman and CEO. All of this had been agreed months before that
Harriman would resign. British Motor Holdings was sliding in to bankruptcy,of which Harriman
was chairman and managing director,and who had incompetetently managed
BMH - and BMC before that. Officially the union of BMH and Leyland was a merger,but behind
all of the phoney public relations-speak and photographs,Donald Stokes
and his Leyland team had turned the ‘merger’ in to a Leyland takeover of BMH ,which was
falling in to a moribund state which was obviously caused by poor management. So
Stokes forced Harriman out of office because of BMH’s poor state,which left the Leyland side
with a majority on the British Leyland board - Leyland had an even bigger majority
when BMH director Joe Edwards resigned in April 1968.
Baron Lord Donald Gresham Stokes Of Leyland,DL;FEng, FIMechE; MSAE; FIMI; FCIT; FICE. Sunday,22nd March,1914,Dartford District,Kent - Monday,21st July,2008,Poole,Dorset. 94.
Started Student Apprenticeship, Leyland Motors Ltd, 1930. Rejoined Leyland as Exports Manager, 1946; General Sales and Service Manager, 1950; Director, 1954; Managing Director, and Deputy Chairman, Leyland Motor Corp., 1963, Chairman 1967; Chairman and Managing Director, British Leyland Ltd, 1973. Director: National Westminster Bank, 1969-1981; London Weekend Television Ltd, 1967-1971; Opus Public Relations Ltd, 1979-1984; Scottish & Universal Investments Ltd, 1980-1992; Dovercourt Motor Co. Ltd, 1982-1990; Beherman Auto-Transport SA, 1983-1989; GWR Group 1990-1994. Vice-President, Empresa Nacional de Autocamiones SA, Spain, 1959-1973. Chairman: British Arabian Adv. Co. Ltd, 1977-1985; Two Counties Radio Ltd, 1978-1984, 1990-1994 (Pres., 1984-1990); Jack Barclay Ltd, 1980-1990; British Arabian Technical Cooperation Ltd, 1981-1985; Reliant Group, 1990; Dutton Forshaw Motor Group, 1980-1990. Vice-President, Engineering Employers Federation, 1967-1975; President: SMMT, 1961-1962; Motor Industry Res. Assoc., 1965-1966; Manchester University Institute of Science and Technology, 1972-1976 (Vice-President, 1967-1971); IMechE, 1972 (Vice-President, 1971); Chairman, EDC for Electronics Industry, 1966-1967; Member: NW Economic Planning Council, 1965-1970; IRC, 1966-1971 (Deputy Chairman 1969); EDC for the Motor Manufacturing Industry, 1967-; Council, Public Transport Assoc.; Worshipful Co. of Carmen. Fellow, IRTE (Pres., 1983-1984), Hon. FIRTE. Chairman, KBH Communications, 1987-1995; Chairman and Managing Director, 1968-1975, Chief Executive, 1973-1975, British Leyland Motor Corporation Ltd; President, BL Ltd, 1975-1979; Consultant to Leyland Vehicles, 1979-1981. DL Lancs 1968. Hon. Fellow, Keble Coll., Oxford, 1968. Hon. LLD Lancaster, 1967; Hon. DTech Loughborough, 1968; Hon. DSc: Southampton, 1969; Salford, 1971. Officier de l’Ordre de la Couronne (Belgium), 1964; Commandeur de l’ordre de Leopold II (Belgium), 1972.________________________________________________________________________________
Above detailed Stokes biographical Information from British Army Officers 1939-1945
website
: unithistories.com/officers/ … s_S02.html
As if all of the above lot wasn’t enough Donald Stokes was also a managing director of
Scammell Lorries - later Scammell Motors - from 1960,became
Chairman of Albion Motors in 1963,was appointed Sales Director of the Leyland Motor
Corporation in 1963,had become Chairman of AEC by 1966 at the
latest and,in addition to these positions,Stokes became Chairman and Managing Director of
the Leyland Motor Corporation in 1967.So he gradually accumulated all of these jobs and
positions and held them simultaneously. This situation carried on after Donald had become
Chairman and Managing Director of the British Leyland Motor Corporation in 1968,and don’t
forget he held several positions outside British Leyland alongside all of his positions inside
the corporation! : Director of National Westminster Bank,1969-1981;Director of London
Weekend Television,1967-1971;Vice-President of Empressa Nacional De Autocamiones
SA,Spain,1959-1973;plus he was President,or Vice - President,etc to this society and that
society or other and so on.
In fairness to Donald Stokes,the resignation of Stanley Markland and illness of Sir Henry
Spurrier left major gaps in the top management of Leyland and these positions
just had to be filled,so Donald Stokes filled some of them.Former AEC-ACV Chairman Lord
William - Bill - Black of Barrow took over Henry Spurrier’s positions of
Chairman and Managing Director of the Leyland Motor Corporation in 1963.Donald Stokes
became his deputy,then he took over from Bill Black in 1967.
All of which makes you wonder how the hell he found the time and energy to run British
Leyland! …er to properly manage British Leyland!! History proves that he didn’t
have the time and energy to properly manage British Leyland!! - he was
a poor manager anyway! …but he had plenty of
personal ambition!! …But it didn’t stop there,oh no! Donald Stokes was chief of
British Leyland from 1968-1975,then he became President of BL = British Leyland
Ltd,1975-1979,and remained on the board until 1979; Consultant to Leyland Vehicles,1979-
1981,after which you would have thought that he would have retired - but Stokes’ personal
ambition still knew no bounds! : From 1977 to at least 1995 he held at least twelve
directorships in twelve different companies,most of which he held simultaneously!! All of
this spells avariciousness to me…it could also mean something else: Lord Stokes
has been called a megalomaniac by several ex-British Leyland managers.
And then there are the fabricated stories about Donald Stokes mainly put out by AEC
enthusiasts in order to get back at him: Donald Stokes applied for an apprenticeship
to AEC but was turned down because he failed his entrance exam…he held a grudge
against AEC ever since… This story is completely wrong and is nonsense!
In reality Donald,from being the age of eleven,always wanted to work for Leyland. Another
phoney story is that Donald wanted to close AEC down in 1969.This is
garbage.Only a year earlier in 1968 Donald stated how impressed he was that AEC customers
of decades and years standing kept on buying AEC lorries,buses
and motorcoaches year after year.AEC was still a healthy and successful company and profit
earner in 1969 and continued to be until it was criminally and very misguidedly
run down by incompetent Leyland managment from the mid 1970s to 1979 Also,British
Leyland needed all the profits it could get in order to support the BMC car side.
I’ve got mixed feelings over Donald Stokes:on the one hand he greatly helped to turn Leyland
Motors into the successful,world-beating,go-ahead Leyland Motor Corporation,but
on the other hand he greatly helped to wreck and destroy the British Leyland Motor
Corporation criminally dropping great marque names such as AEC,Albion,Guy,
Thornycroft,etc,all of which had great commercial potential and marque loyalty… all of this
iniquitous destruction also led to the end of Scammell,Bristol,Daimler,C.H.Roe,
Park Royal,ECW and the Leyland name itself!! And most of the motorcar marque names went
too:Austin,Austin Healey,Morris,Riley,Triumph,Wolseley,Rover,Vanden Plas
It was a tragi-comedy;even when British Leyland was at its height Donald Stokes thought that
British Leyland was still not big enough to compete with Volkswagen,Renault,
Fiat,Ford,Volvo,Mercedes-Benz,General Motors,etc,on the world stage.And yet most of
British Leyland was closed down and the rest was sold off! It was madness!
Leyland should never have got involved with BMH = British Motor Holdings,the moribund
shambles that was originally BMC = British Motor Corporation - Leyland ought to
have kept the healthy Jaguar,Guy,Daimler part and sold off the BMC Austin Morris disaster.
Donald Stokes said almost the same thing:It would have been better to let BMH go bankrupt
then Leyland would have moved in and bought the best parts!
I.
Lord Donald Gresham Stokes Of Leyland,1914-2008.Photographed in 1968.He played a very
major role in both of the growth of Leyland and the decline of Leyland.He also
lived to see Leyland die twice over - Leyland Bus in 1993 and Leyland DAF Trucks in 2000.
Sir Ronald Ellis,better known as Ron Ellis,Managing Director of the British Leyland Truck & Bus
Division,1968-1976. Lord Stokes’ right-hand man so far as lorries,motorcoaches and buses
were concerned and,according to some people,he knew the commercial vehicle industry
inside out.
He must have been involved with the Leyland 500 System Engine Range,the AEC 800-Series
V8 Engine,the AEC-Leyland TL12 Engine,the AEC Sabre V8 Motorcoach,the Leyland Marathon
Heavy Lorry Range,etc,and probably the early stages of the Leyland Roadtrain T45 Heavy
Motor Truck Range.
Truck Magazine interviewed Ron Ellis in 1975,for the March or April 1975 edition? ,where he
related his involvement with the Leyland Marathon,TL12 Engine and how
the Marathon was developed on a shoestring.It was Ron Ellis who named the Marathon.One
of the things he said during the interview was "We moved out of Albion
and we’ll move out of AEC" UNQUOTE.Or words to that effect. With this statement,he did the
British Leyland Truck & Bus Division,AEC and what remained of Albion
a lot of damage since it put off potential customers from buying Leyland,AEC,Guy and
Scammell vehicles and these people bought Scanias,Volvos,Fodens,ERFs,
Mercedes-Benzs,Seddon Atkinsons,Renaults,etc,instead!! This arrogant man must have had
hardly any respect for customers and marque loyalty:It was a case of
giving customers what Leyland wanted to give and not what customers really wanted!! No
wonder Leyland eventually ceased to exist! And no wonder Ron Ellis
packed in his job as the chief of the Truck & Bus Division in August 1976 - he must have seen
the bleak future facing Leyland! and got out of Leyland. He obtained a job with
the Ministry of Defence as Head of Defence Sales and was knighted in the process.
Anthony Wedgewood-Benn,better known as Tony Benn,Secretary of State for Industry.
QUOTE:
Postby Ramone » Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:13 am
Tony Ben gets a mention by Edwards and it seemed the prime minister kept him on a lead
UNQUOTE.
I’m not suprised Prime Minister James Callaghan kept Tony Benn on a lead,so to speak.Tony
Benn was another misguided Jeremy Corbyn ,a hard left wing Labour MP
who befriended other hard left wingers such as Arthur Scargill and Red Ken Livingstone The
centre left Labour government wanted Tony Benn to follow the party line
and not make any hard left wing moves,as some hard left wing fanatics are prone to do.
British Leyland management. Sir Don Ryder never became a manager or indeed chairman of
British Leyland.Full name Don Sydney Thomas Franklyn Ryder,Baron Ryder of Eaton
Hastings,was Chairman of the NEB = National Enterprise Board from 1975-1977 and was in
charge of The Ryder Report,which advised the government on how to revive British Leyland
in to a successful and profitable motor vehicle manufacturer.
Donald Stokes lost his positions as chief executive and chairman and was appointed
President,which was a non-executive and figurehead position,Alex Park was chief
executive from April 1975 to October 1977 and Professor Sir Ronald Edwards was non-
executive chairman from October 1975 to January 1976 - he suddenly passed on
to The Other World - Sir Robert Clark became acting chairman until Sir Richard Dobson was
appointed in March 1976. Dobson resigned in October 1977.
Sir Michael Edwardes became chief executive and chairman in October 1977 and held those
posts until September 1982. Ray Horrocks then became executive of
cars and the Unipart spares business,Harold Musgrove became chief executive and chairman
of the motorcar division,which was re-named Austin Rover,and David Andrews
became executive of Leyland Vehicles and Land Rover.
Glaxo chairman Sir Austin Bide replaced Michael Edwardes as a part-time non-executive
chairman from September 1982 until he was succeeded by Sir Graham Day in May
1986,who became chairman and chief executive officer - then Musgrove,Bide,Horrocks and
Andrews all resigned - he remained in office until 1991.
On the Truck & Bus Division side it will be recalled that its managing director,Ron Ellis,left
Leyland in August 1976. He was replaced by Sir Des Pitcher in October 1976 who
resigned from this post in July 1978 after having had several disagreements with Michael
Edwards,and Jack Smart,deputy managing director of Leyland Vehicles,took over
operational responsibility.In December 1978 David Abell took over as managing director and
chairman of Leyland Vehicles,posts that he held until he resigned in January 1981.
Ron Hancock was managing director and chairman of Leyland Vehicles from January 1981 to
Christmas Eve 1984.
Les Wharton became managing director of Leyland Vehicles from around the beginning of
1985 and retained that position until September 1986 when he became head of
the Austin Rover Car Group,while George Simpson became managing director of Leyland
Trucks and head of Freight Rover and Land-Rover.
George Simpson retained his manager directorship after Leyland Trucks merged with the
Dutch DAF company in February 1987,the United Kingdom part of the newly
formed company became Leyland DAF. He moved on to become managing director of the
Rover Group in 1989 - in 1988 Rover had become part of British Aerospace.
George Simpson became chairman of Rover in September 1991 and Sir Graham Day was
promoted to chairman of British Aerospace.In December 1991 Simpson was
promoted to deputy chief executive of British Aerospace,while retaining the chairmanship of
Rover.
Simpson arranged the sale of Rover to BMW in 1994.Prior to this it was announced in
November 1993 that Simpson was to become the Chief Executive Officer of Lucas
Industries,which,under his instigation merged with the American company Varity to become
LucasVarity PLC in 1996.
George Simpson became managing director of one of the United Kingdom’s most successful
companies,GEC = General Electric Company,in around March 1996,replacing
Lord Weinstock,who managed GEC to make £1 billion a year in profits,GEC had a cash reserve
of £3 billion and was worth £10 billion…most of GEC’s wealth was wasted
away over the next few years through George Simpson’s mis-management!! Simpson became
Baron George Simpson of Dunkeld,in Perth and Kinross,in November 1997.
Over the next few years of so-called ‘big business’ deals,financial wheeler-dealing,foolishly
exploiting the dot-com market bubble which burst,and other deals,including
changing the GEC name to Marconi,all amounted to one of the biggest failures in British
business history!!
WIKIPEDIA QUOTE:
These acquisitions were made at the height of the dot-com bubble, and the bursting of the bubble in 2001 took a heavy toll on Marconi.[24][25][26] In July 2001, Marconi plc suffered a 54% drop in its share price following the suspension of trading of its shares, a profits warning, and redundancies. Its managing director Lord Simpson was forced to resign. Shares that had been worth £12.50 at GEC’s peak had fallen to £0.04. Lord Weinstock’s own stake, once worth £480 million, was reduced to £2 million.[13]
UNQUOTE.
Marconi eventually went bust in October 2006
NOTE: I have detailed at some length Lord Simpson’s career which is an essential part of this
narrative,but also to show,just like Lord Stokes before him,how a motor
industry whizz-kid (namely a Leyland Heritage whizz-kid) can rise to great heights,then can
dramatically fall in the wake of the catastrophe that he has either fully or partly
caused!! He resigned in disgrace and left British big business for good. He also resigned from
The House of Lords in July 2015,after a leave of absence since 2004.
All this reminds me of what happened to the former Royal Bank of Scotland chief executive
whizz-kid,Fred Goodwin,who grossly mis-managed the RBS,rapidly overspent
the bank’s money on takeovers and lost the bank and its customers millions of pounds during
the 2000-2008 period,which contributed to the World Financial Crisis in 2008!!!
The RBS made a loss of £24 billion in 2008,the largest annual loss in UK business history.He
resigned in disgrace in January 2009,and was stripped of his knighthood in
February 2012.
Now that I’ve documented all the principle management of Leyland,British Leyland and
Rover from the Stokes era onwards,I might as well,for the sake of history and
completeness,cover the principle managers that managed bus and motorcoach chassis,and
body production.
So here we go Leyland bus and motorcoach production was part of the Truck & Bus Division
whose managing director was Ron Ellis.A new subsidary company,the Leyland National Bus
Company Ltd,founded in 1969,based at Workington,■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ by Leyland and
the National Bus Company,to produce a standardised integral single decker bus model for the
newly-formed National Bus Company = NBC,the PTE’s = Passenger Transport
Executives,etc.The new purpose-built Workington factory used motorcar-derived mass-
production techniques to produce the buses. Marcus Smith was director and general manager
of the Leyland National company virtually from the beginning of the company in 1969,Ron
Ellis was chairman and production began in 1972. In April 1973 Marcus Smith became general
manager of all of Leyland’s bus factories,and was replaced at Workington by John Battersby -
who later worked at Brislington,in Bristol,at the Bristol motorcoach and bus factory.
David Quainton was factory director at Leyland National from 1982 to 1986.
The Leyland Truck & Bus Division was renamed Leyland Vehicles Ltd in 1978,the bus and
motorcoach side became the Passenger Vehicle Division and covered Leyland
buses and motorcoaches,AEC motorcoaches and buses,Leyland National,C.H.Roe,Park
Royal,Bristol and ECW = Eastern Coach Works.Marcus Smith became general
manager,but he didn’t stay in the position long:he left Leyland in the Summer of 1979
because he didn’t like the top management policies and knew that Leyland Vehicles
was going in the wrong direction because of them.
Ken McIver replaced Marcus Smith as managing director of the Passenger Vehicle Division in
1979 and remained in that post until January 1985,when he had a disagreement
with the top management over the loss-making Leyland Bus,he left Leyland and became
managing director of Lucas World Service.The Passenger Vehicle Division had been
re-named Leyland Bus Ltd in 1981.
Ian McKinnon became the new managing director of Leyland Bus in January 1985 and
eventually headed a management-buy-out of Leyland Bus from the state-owned Rover
Group in January 1987,but it soon became clear that the now independent Leyland Bus could
not survive on its own and needed to become part of another motor vehicle
manufacturer. Talks were held with several British,European and Scandinavian companies.
Eventually Volvo Bus Corporation bought Leyland Bus in late March 1988.President
of the corporation,Larserik Nilsson,became chairman of Leyland Bus,marketing director of
Volvo Bus,Jürgen Bahr,became the temporary managing director of Leyland Bus
and McKinnon stayed on the board in a non-executive capacity. Not long after the Leyland
Bus sale to Volvo McKinnon left Volvo-Leyland …with a reported £8 million in
compensation!
Jürgen Bahr was replaced as managing director of Leyland Bus by Volvo man,John Arkell,from
Monday,1st August,1988. However,Leyland Bus and Volvo Bus sales,
marketing and service came under the new V L Bus & Motorcoach UK Ltd from Sunday,1st
January,1989,the managing director was Sandy Glennie. In 1990 he was
appointed managing director of all Volvo Bus operations in the United Kingdom,which of
course,included Leyland bus and motorcoach activities. January 1991 saw Leyland
Bus divided into two divisions:Bus Body Division,managed by Rodney Swarbrick,and the
Leyland Bus Chassis Division,managed by Tommy Svensson.
Larserik Nilsson was replaced as president of Volvo Bus Corporation by Björn Larsson in
October 1991.
The United Kingdom was in the depths of a deep economic recession at the time,sales of new
motorcoaches and buses were really down,so the whole of Volvo’s United
Kingdom motorcoach and bus operations - engineering,manufacturing,sales,etc - became
Volvo Bus Ltd,Sandy Glennie was the managing director,the company was based
at Warwick and began operating on Monday,1st July,1991. The Leyland name would be
gradually phased out - it was dropped in 1993.
Production of the Leyland Tiger motorcoach and bus and the Lynx bus models ceased,leaving
the Olympian double decker bus as the only surviving Leyland model.
By now Leyland was a shadow of its former self: AEC had been closed in 1979,Park Royal in
1980,Guy in 1982,Bristol in 1983,C.H.Roe in 1984 (to be revived as the independent
Optare company in 1985),Bathgate lorry and tractor factory in 1985,ECW = Eastern Coach
Works in 1987,Scammell in 1988 and Leyland’s Farington bus factory at Leyland
stopped making buses in 1991 - not to mention that the original Leyland Motors was no
longer whole and intact!! Another act in this tragi-comedy had yet to be carried out: On
Friday,6th December,1991 Volvo stated that Leyland’s last bus factory at Workington was to
be closed down, because it was making losses and these could not be
sustained,production of the Olympian was transferred to Volvo’s Irvine factory in Scotland in
1993.Production of the now Volvo Olympian,revamped,began in March 1993.
The Workington factory was sold to the famous Eddie Stobart road haulage company and
became a warehouse.The Leyland marque name was also dropped by
PACCAR-Daf. In 2000. The Leyland marque name was and is truly dead and buried…at least
in the Northern Hemisphere…however,in the Southern Hemisphere
Ashok Leyland,based at Chennai,India,is the second largest manufacturer of commercial
vehicles in India,the third largest builder of motorcoaches and buses in the world
and the tenth largest manufacturer of lorries.The Sherburn-In-Elmet,North Yorkshire-based
Optare (which was created from C.H.Roe,Leeds) is now owned by Ashok Leyland.
WHO KILLED THE BRITISH MOTOR INDUSTRY?
Who Killed The British Motor Industry? Jeremy Clarkson . YouTube.
youtube.com/watch?v=LBlILaMU6xU
The great Jeremy Clarkson asks Who killed The British Motor Industry? in this short circa half-
hour Top Gear documentary,made in 2000.
Jeremy is his usual witty,no-nonsense,observent,amusing and shrewd self in this telling
documentary.
He is addressing his motorcar-orientated audience,thus he concentrates on what went wrong
on the motorcar side (most media either ignore the lorry,motorcoach and bus side or just pay
just a token glance to it).
Hence that’s why at the end of this documentary he has large photograph cut outs of certain
main characters who were directly involved in the
motorcar side - the exception being a politician…The photos are placed around a table - it
could well be a boardroom table. The photographs are of
Bernd Pischetsrieder,BMW Chairman; Sir Michael Edwardes,British Leyland Chairman & CEO;
Derek Red Robbo Robinson,Communist Union Leader;Tony Benn,Labour Government
Minister; Sir Leonard Lord,who later became Lord Lambury,Chairman & CEO of Austin and
BMC.
Jeremy Clarkson then asks 'Who killed the British Motor Industry? ',pointing to each man in
the assembled photographs. He concludes that ‘It was all of them. Goodnight.’
Is that a fair assesment? Yes and no. Since Sir Michael Edwardes saved what was left of
British Leyland and is therefore innocent,his photograph should not have been
included in the first place. What were amazingly left out were photographs of Sir George
Harriman,Chairman & CEO of both BMH and British Leyland; Sir Ronald Ellis,
Managing Director of British Leyland Truck & Bus Division; Lord Donald Stokes,Chairman &
CEO of British Leyland Motor Corporation.These three,along with Derek
Red Robbo Robinson and Tony Benn (who represented the guilty Government of 1966-1970)
were the five most guilty men who killed the British Motor Industry.
Of the eight people listed,the only person who emerges with any credit is Sir Michael
Edwardes:the man who saved the British Motor Industry…at least for a time -
the Rover Group would end up going out of business in 2005.
J.
Sir Michael Edwardes,1930-2019,Courageous,tough-talking,dynamic and very good business man who astutely masterminded the recovery of British Leyland from 1977-1982. DailyMail.1#
NOTE: It has taken me some time to research and write all the facts in this post,but during the
last few days the main contributors to this thread seem to have lost
interest.I hope this post revives interest
LAWRENCE DUNBAR AND LAWRENCE GARDNER & SONS AND THEIR GARDNER DIESEL OIL ENGINES.
Finally,in response to Lawrence Dunbar in regard to Lawrence Gardner & Sons and their
Gardner Diesel Oil Engines.
I’ve said it before elsewhere on TruckNetUK and I’ll now say it again: In regard to quality
Gardner were the Rolls-Royce of Diesel Engines,but in terms of
speed,torque and power,Gardner made underpowered engines. And I’m sure that you
yourself realised that Gardner were underpowered when you drove lorries
that had other makes of engines in them:AEC,Leyland,Rolls-Royce-Perkins…and ■■■■■■■■
Foden? Caterpillar? Volvo? Scania? Mercedes-Benz? Detroit Diesel? ,
etc - all these other marques of engine could leave Gardner-powered lorries,motorcoaches
and buses standing!
From the 1970s to the end of Gardner engine production,Gardner were really taking lessons
from other engine manufacturers: building markedly more powerful
engines,such as the 8LXB 240-250,adding turbocharging to their engines,adding intercooling
to at least one model of engine and making engine production more
efficent,to name some of the improvements - most of them influenced by rival engine
makers!
FIN.
Back to Shortwave Radio!
VALKYRIE
StationX
Thank you Valkyrie- that’s a very well-researched and written post. I’m sure we will all learn something from it.
Wow Valkyrie what a post only one thing to say fantastic. No doubt the world renowned expert Will argue as he has with all the other contributors on this topic cheers Ray
A brilliant in depth post there Val , i think most on here have learnt something from it . I now realise what you meant when you questioned me about Stokes a few months back
Phew! I had better go and do some work.
Interesting and thanks.
Plenty of grunt at the crank there, Valkerie!
Bravo Sir, well done.
Does anybody else feel there might be a" whatever " in the offing ?
It’s fake news, all of it. Anyone with any engineering savvy would know that the Carryfast Engine, made from recycled TL12 parts would have successfully powered everything from sports saloons, F1 cars through to heavy trucks at ratings up to and exceeding 1000 horsepower. If only the Chinese commies, aided by the entire British Establishment (and others) hadn’t conspired to prevent it happening, the world would be a much better place today.
Thanks Valkyrie. A huge amount of work went into compiling that, let’s hope that we don’t see baseless challenges to a thoroughly well thought-out summary. It is such a pity that during the course of this and several other threads knowledgeable contributors; operators, mechanical engineers, research authors, vehicle restorers, fitters, drivers and others with intimate knowledge of the products under discussion; had simply given up banging their head against a brick wall when they still had so much more to offer.
The thread still has much potential for sensible discussion without asserting that particular designs are rubbish. No doubt ■■■■■■■■ Leyland and AEC, just like everyone on the planet learnt a lot from their mistakes. It would have been interesting to learn from anyone interested about many different designs and their influence - or lack of - on the market, Well known: Napier’s Deltic and Sabre, Rolls Royce’s Merlin and Griffon, Paxman’s Valenta,Tilling Stevens’ TS, General Motors’ Detroit, Caterpillar. The Lesser Known : Bristol’s Hercules, Centaurus and Axial, the Albion EN800, the Rolls Royce Vulture, The English Electric 4SRKT and many others.
So why would Rolls Royce have chosen to use the same firing order that AEC abandoned after the 7.7 and why did Foden choose something completely different?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well I gave up with it long ago, settled for arguing with my missus instead as I had a slightly better chance of winning one of those.
Pete.
Cav551’s point about Foden surely highlights Foden?!
No reply yet from the font of all knowledge well done everyone cheers Ray
I believe that this thread has run it’s course as The Great Man of Leatherhead has exhausted all the www.com info sites so he has had to admit defeat I’m afraid !! so altogether Aahh! poor lad ! Stop laughing you ■■■■■ at the back !! Anon 1.
Bewick:
I believe that this thread has run it’s course as The Great Man of Leatherhead has exhausted all the com info sites so he has had to admit defeat I’m afraid !! so altogether Aahh! poor lad !
Said he as he poked the embers
essexpete:
Bewick:
I believe that this thread has run it’s course as The Great Man of Leatherhead has exhausted all the com info sites so he has had to admit defeat I’m afraid !! so altogether Aahh! poor lad !Said he as he poked the embers
