neilg14:
If you’re rich in the USA,you probably do get the best healthcare in the world but apart from that, the NHS wins hands down.
The biggest problem wih the NHS is that it is run by the GOV.
GOV’s are no good at running any type of business efficiently.
The GOV should be funding it with a small mixed group of very experienced doctors/nurses/businessmen running it, being able to cut admin to the bone, upping the DR’s/nuses wages and putting the funding where it is needed most.
Then, also, anybody who cannot produce a Nat Ins number will not get treated free, if you go to the UK on holiday, a temporary work permit, etc. you must have holiday health ins cover.
No operations whatsoever for body changing should be funded by NHS.
Here in Alberta, we get, free at the point of use, providing we show our Alberta health card, DR’s, Hospital treatment inc surgery and stays.
Anything else ie. Dentists, Chiro, Prescriptions, Eyecare etc. has to be paid for either by private health ins which I am lucky enough to have through work which covers 90% of the cost of this.
I have one prescription that I have to take for the rest of my life that costs $230/mth here which you would pay £8.80 for.
Are Governments really bad at running everything?
Is the UK energy market so much better now it’s been privatised?
Is water so much more efficient now?
Was British Rail so much worse than what we have now? Years of underfunding preceded it’s demise remember. And we all know “you only get what you pay for.” How can we currently subsidise rail travel with taxpayer’s money and allow dividends be paid to investors?
In any big organisation it’s easy to find instances of inefficiencies and highlight them. That doesn’t mean the whole system is bad.
Cutting out superfluous admin is clearly a good thing, but lack of supervision leads to waste of time and resources, so it’s a difficult balancing act. Cheaper in the short term isn’t always cheaper in the long term and managers are needed to see this.
Private management certainly doesn’t always equal efficiency or probity.
Politicians interfering in State run business for short term political aims, is a problem, but that doesn’t mean private is always better.
its a lottery how youre treated ,wherever you are in the world. guy i know drives between east europe and belorussia and fell out of his cab hit his head ended up in a hospital there [belorussia] and got 1st class treatment not sure if it was free but even if itd been costly whats your money for anyway?. i myself collapsed on a street downtown Ipswich and the medic /ambo carted me off quickly,yet again 1st class treatment .Actually now im thinking of it i know several people whove been taken ill/thought the end was near,but it was not - and everyone was dealt with quickly.
Wheel Nut:
That’s a fair point, one thing to save money would be stopping free prescriptions, most people of 60 years of age own a house, car and have more disposable income than a young family. Plastic Surgery or Transgender/ ■■■ changes and ■■■■ bleaching should be charged for.
If you haven’t lived and worked in the UK for 5 years you pay for all treatment
nhs.uk/conditions/cosmetic- … n-the-nhs/
“Cosmetic surgery is not routinely provided on the NHS.
Occasionally, it may be provided on the NHS for psychological or other health reasons.”
■■■■ bleaching on the NHS? Been mistaking the Sun for a newspaper or summat?
I have nothing but praise for the NHS in this country. Until four years ago, I had only needed them once. Back in '89, I was going a bit rapid on my bicycle one Sunday morning and a car ‘never saw me’. Made a bit of a mess of me which resulted in me being on crutches for 6 months and several operations om my right leg. Then four years ago, I was taken quite ill, enough to force my medical retirement from driving trucks all round Europe. Since then, I have had quite a few stays in hospital, mainly when I get a chest infection, and each and every time I have had great treatment. My only complaint would be the consultant who told me in Jan '15, I had a max of 24 months to live!! I’m still here fighting (I’m a ghost really).
But the wastage in the NHS is horrendous in my view. Just over two years ago, my Dad went in as an emergency, was discovered to have a ‘melon’ in his bowel which of course was cancer. He was operated on and into ICU. That was the Wednesday … on the Sunday evening we had a phone call to come up and then was told if any of the family wanted to come in, now was the time as they were going to take Dad off life support. My sister and I went up on the Monday morning to prepare for this horrible situation and expecting to see Dad pass away. Only when we got there, the senior consultant had decided not to do it and to keep Dad on LS. This prompted a huge row between myself and the consultant which I am sure the whole hospital heard. M sister threatened to have me banned from the ward if I kicked off again. I distinctly remember telling him ‘You think you’re God but the only Gods round here are the nurses who have to clear up all the ■■■■ after you’. This prompted the ward sister to burst into laughter. He was not happy.
The result was they kept Dad on LS for another 5 days before taking him off it and he died 20 minutes later. But how much did this cost?? A bed with the resultant 24 hour individual care in ICU and the relevant treatment must have cost thousands!! Just so the consultant could keep Dad alive another 5 days when he had no chance of surviving.
Actually the real world is “Oh youre ill? Come in and lets get you looked at and see how we can make you better” Vs “Oh youre ill? And you dont have insurance? Well you need to leave then. Good bye”
Actually the real world is “Oh youre ill? Come in and lets get you looked at and see how we can make you better” Vs “Oh youre ill? And you dont have insurance? Well you need to leave then. Good bye”
No the real world is being in the throes of severe sepsis resulting from septiceamia caused by obviously severely infected un/misdiagnosed arterial leg ulcers including obvious presence of gangrene.Having previously been transferred from hospital to local community hospital for in patient ‘re habilitation’ physio.Then sent back to A and E as non urgent case using patient transport resulting in hours of delay + triaged on arrival to suit.Then when eventually having caught on being transferred to an ordinary ward for lack of intensive care resources.Then fighting for your life without the support for the vital organs resulting in at least severe heart damage.Two months later then being sent home as a palliative case.
But look on the bright side that’s when the nature of the ulcers was found but too late to amputate because the organs now won’t stand the shock of the op and we need to ration what limited resources we have to the point of deciding who lives and who dies.So as to allow the CBI classes to maximise their profits and not have to spend them on health care for their employees whether working/unemployed/retired and their employees’ pre working age dependents etc etc.In the US they call it Private insurance based health care while here we call it the NHS.Strangely I’ve never heard of the above type of scenario in the case of the US system though.
The 96% plunge in EU nurses joining the UK register following the Brexit. [vote]
So are you saying Brexit was a bad thing for our NHS?
The drop in foreign nurses from all parts of the world was due to the tightening of the English language test that foreign nurses have to do to work in the NHS, friend of my sisters was involved in this and said that once the standard was raised the numbers who could pass plunged, it was announced this week that the standard is to be relaxed to enable the NHS to fill gaps, conveniently for remainers the new exam came in around the time of the Brexit vote and so was used to blame decreasing numbers of EU nurses on the Brexit vote
That wasn’t really the point of the post, more was that Carryfast, Trucknet Brexiteer in Chief had posted an article by Polly Toynbee, in which she claimed Brexit was partially responsible for causing a crisis in the NHS. I just loved the irony.
No the point was the fact that ‘our own’ nurses ( and doctors ) are voting with their feet in deciding that the NHS is under resourced and over rationed and running off to the US/Oz/Nz instead.While there’s no argument that the NHS is attractive to health care workers from 3rd world countries where resources are even less than here all in the interests of making their economies more ‘competitive’.The irony being the Polly’s of this world moaning about that situation let alone asking her the question,how does any of that make the case for the EU and the NHS and against the US/NZ/Australian health care systems ?.
i’m with you on this one rob. I could be bleached on a Friday but come sunday after Saturday’s 10 pint’s of Guinness and a madras i’d have to have it done again. waste of money imho.
But don’t forget all those who are claiming compensation from the NHS if there is a mistake or something dose not go to plan that is also draining the NHS
I’ve always been amazed that with all its wealth and resources America can’t/won’t look after its citizens - but then when you have Sarah Palin likening the NHS to a commie agency it’s no surprise that a certain sector of the electorate who are utterly paranoid about government interference will try to derail any kind of social endeavour.
Whilst these folk hold sway there will be thousands of people in Pats position and mass shootings.
And now they voted in Trump - let’s not get started on that utter buffoon.
Socketset:
I’ve always been amazed that with all its wealth and resources America can’t/won’t look after its citizens - but then when you have Sarah Palin likening the NHS to a commie agency it’s no surprise that a certain sector of the electorate who are utterly paranoid about government interference will try to derail any kind of social endeavour.
Whilst these folk hold sway there will be thousands of people in Pats position and mass shootings.
And now they voted in Trump - let’s not get started on that utter buffoon.
To be fair the US reasoning is being misrepresented as part of the Brit establishment agenda.On that note the reality is that the American way rightly understands the conflict of interest which arises when we have the government acting as a type of dodgy controlled opposition Union baron controlling the right to negotiate between employer and employee regarding the health care component of wage demands.
While we know that the government is always on the side of the employer.Which is the flaw in the NHS system and explains why the default choice for the NHS is always rationing to suit the situation in which the employer dictates that health care component of the wage to the government.With the employee nor even the employees’ union having no right to bargain in their own right directly with the employer in that regard.On that note yes it’s the worst type of collective agreement in which ironically the government actually represents the interests of the employer not the employee and people are definitely dying because of the resulting rationing which by definition that system imposes on itself.IE the NHS is there to deal with the symptoms of low wages by imposing rationing on its consumers.As opposed to allowing unions to force the situation in which incomes have to cover health care costs from cradle to grave and all dependents without any rationing of health care provision.The fact that US wage levels are being decimated by globalisation is a different issue and going for an NHS type based system ain’t going to fix that just as it doesn’t fix it here.
That’s why the US working class are happy to vote for Trump in the mistaken belief that he will fix the issue of globalisation wrecking US living standards.But in the correct belief that the NHS was flawed from its introduction and it’s far better to have the situation of strong unions in a protected economy with a private based health care system with the incomes to afford it.
Socketset:
I’ve always been amazed that with all its wealth and resources America can’t/won’t look after its citizens - but then when you have Sarah Palin likening the NHS to a commie agency it’s no surprise that a certain sector of the electorate who are utterly paranoid about government interference will try to derail any kind of social endeavour.
Whilst these folk hold sway there will be thousands of people in Pats position and mass shootings.
And now they voted in Trump - let’s not get started on that utter buffoon.
To be fair the US reasoning is being misrepresented as part of the Brit establishment agenda.On that note the reality is that the American way rightly understands the conflict of interest which arises when we have the government acting as a type of dodgy controlled opposition Union baron controlling the right to negotiate between employer and employee regarding the health care component of wage demands.
While we know that the government is always on the side of the employer.Which is the flaw in the NHS system and explains why the default choice for the NHS is always rationing to suit the situation in which the employer dictates that health care component of the wage to the government.With the employee nor even the employees’ union having no right to bargain in their own right directly with the employer in that regard.On that note yes it’s the worst type of collective agreement in which ironically the government actually represents the interests of the employer not the employee and people are definitely dying because of the resulting rationing which by definition that system imposes on itself.IE the NHS is there to deal with the symptoms of low wages by imposing rationing on its consumers.As opposed to allowing unions to force the situation in which incomes have to cover health care costs from cradle to grave and all dependents without any rationing of health care provision.The fact that US wage levels are being decimated by globalisation is a different issue and going for an NHS type based system ain’t going to fix that just as it doesn’t fix it here.
That’s why the US working class are happy to vote for Trump in the mistaken belief that he will fix the issue of globalisation wrecking US living standards.But in the correct belief that the NHS was flawed from its introduction and it’s far better to have the situation of strong unions in a protected economy with a private based health care system with the incomes to afford it.
How many US private insurance companies give cover for pre-existing and congenital conditions?
How much would they charge if any do offer such cover? Are all workers going to get pay to cover the possibility of such need? Will cover continue after someone becomes so ill as not to be able to work?
That’s why the mortality in US hospitals you quoted earlier is low: the gravely ill can’t afford care, so die at home.
Look at mortality rates in hospitals, but ALSO look at life expectancy and infant mortality figures.
muckles:
With it being in existence for just over 70 years they aren’t many people left who can remember the UK before the NHS and what it meant to ordinary working people, when my father was a small child he had a minor operation on the kitchen table, which his parent then had to pay the doctor, in his latter years suffering from a terminal illness his treatment was first class and all on the NHS.
Yes it was my taxes, your taxes and his taxes that had paid for it, but at a time of his life when he had enough to worry about, he and my mother and the rest of the family didn’t have to worry about where the money was coming from to treat him or if his insurance would continue to cover the costs.
However even taking into account inflation etc, the NHS costs us far more than it did in the 1950’s, so maybe it’s time for the country to have a serious discussion on what we want the NHS to fund or it will keep being stretched and put under pressure from those politicians and others who’d like to privatise it, probably for their own financial gain.
Yep 2 in particular spring to mind,swivel eyed freak Jeremy @unt…(multi millionaire health products business) and the disgusting,smug,oily all round p.o.s Hammond,also a multi millionaire health business boss.
Guessing these aforementioned @ank stains would like an even bigger piece of the pie.
Carryfast:
To be fair the US reasoning is being misrepresented as part of the Brit establishment agenda.On that note the reality is that the American way rightly understands the conflict of interest which arises when we have the government acting as a type of dodgy controlled opposition Union baron controlling the right to negotiate between employer and employee regarding the health care component of wage demands.
While we know that the government is always on the side of the employer.Which is the flaw in the NHS system and explains why the default choice for the NHS is always rationing to suit the situation in which the employer dictates that health care component of the wage to the government.With the employee nor even the employees’ union having no right to bargain in their own right directly with the employer in that regard.On that note yes it’s the worst type of collective agreement in which ironically the government actually represents the interests of the employer not the employee and people are definitely dying because of the resulting rationing which by definition that system imposes on itself.IE the NHS is there to deal with the symptoms of low wages by imposing rationing on its consumers.As opposed to allowing unions to force the situation in which incomes have to cover health care costs from cradle to grave and all dependents without any rationing of health care provision.The fact that US wage levels are being decimated by globalisation is a different issue and going for an NHS type based system ain’t going to fix that just as it doesn’t fix it here.
That’s why the US working class are happy to vote for Trump in the mistaken belief that he will fix the issue of globalisation wrecking US living standards.But in the correct belief that the NHS was flawed from its introduction and it’s far better to have the situation of strong unions in a protected economy with a private based health care system with the incomes to afford it.
How many US private insurance companies give cover for pre-existing and congenital conditions?
How much would they charge if any do offer such cover? Are all workers going to get pay to cover the possibility of such need? Will cover continue after someone becomes so ill as not to be able to work?
That’s why the mortality in US hospitals you quoted earlier is low: the gravely ill can’t afford care, so die at home.
Look at mortality rates in hospitals, but ALSO look at life expectancy and infant mortality figures.
Did you actually read the articles stating that Brit hospitals are deciding who lives and who dies based just on available resources which translates as hard cash just as in the US example.Which obviously also includes those considered to be the wrong age,with the wrong expensive to treat illnesses,including the situation of more patients than available intensive care beds.In which case what’s the difference between a Brit being denied the required treatment and then sent home or to hospice as a ‘palliative’ case v an American who can’t afford the required treatment.They both die outside of the hospital environment so don’t get counted in either case.
As for US health cover for pre existing issues and insufficient incomes etc if it was as bad as being suggested Americans would obviously all be fleeing the place in their droves rather than them having to take extreme measures to keep illegal mass immigration out.As for the NHS it’s obviously better to fix the cause by providing well paid jobs than the symptoms in the form of unsustainable supposedly ‘free’ health care provision that can only always be anything but.With it unfortunately being the patient who is the one who suddenly finds out the hard way that the state run option has run out of cash having allowed the employers to dictate what they are prepared to pay for their employees’ health care.As opposed to the employees dictating what they are prepared to work for in terms of the real cost of decent health care cover.
Just wanted to wish you and Lady Pat all the best. It’s terrible to have all those worries on top of worrying about your health.
As for the NHS, it isn’t perfect and I think there are tweaks that could be made, but my only (touch wood) experience has been with the late Mr A, who had bowel cancer and an aggressive form of dementia. The care he got was outstanding. In fact my only gripe was that he got too much care at the end and he should have been allowed to die earlier than he did, but that is a real first world problem.
The-Snowman:
Actually the real world is “Oh youre ill? Come in and lets get you looked at and see how we can make you better” Vs “Oh youre ill? And you dont have insurance? Well you need to leave then. Good bye”
No the real world is being in the throes of severe sepsis resulting from septiceamia caused by obviously severely infected un/misdiagnosed arterial leg ulcers including obvious presence of gangrene.Having previously been transferred from hospital to local community hospital for in patient ‘re habilitation’ physio.Then sent back to A and E as non urgent case using patient transport resulting in hours of delay + triaged on arrival to suit.Then when eventually having caught on being transferred to an ordinary ward for lack of intensive care resources.Then fighting for your life without the support for the vital organs resulting in at least severe heart damage.Two months later then being sent home as a palliative case.
But look on the bright side that’s when the nature of the ulcers was found but too late to amputate because the organs now won’t stand the shock of the op and we need to ration what limited resources we have to the point of deciding who lives and who dies.So as to allow the CBI classes to maximise their profits and not have to spend them on health care for their employees whether working/unemployed/retired and their employees’ pre working age dependents etc etc.In the US they call it Private insurance based health care while here we call it the NHS.Strangely I’ve never heard of the above type of scenario in the case of the US system though.
Uh huh. And that happens every single time does it? Or is it actually much more common that they find out what’s wrong with you early and cure you and you’ve just made up an extreme case to try to justify yourself? Heres another scenario for you.
Woman is unwell. Lethargic, out of breath, cant walk from pain in chest and struggling to breath. Family call doctor who comes out and announces he wants her to go to hospital. He calls an ambulance which arrives 3 minutes later. 2 paramedics attend to patient then take her in ambulance to hospital where she is admitted, has tests run and is taken to a ward one level below intensive care. Tests are run, scans are taken over next 24 hours before family are called to announce patient has taken a severe downturn and been rushed to intensive care. Patient is diagnosed with pneumonia and spends 3 weeks in intensive care having tests and scans as well as 1 on 1 care by a nurse. Patient is eventually transferred back to the other ward where she spends a further 3 weeks of monitoring (including being on a ventilator) and then a week in a normal ward before a home report is done to assess her suitability to return home and then being released. Further follow up appoitments are also arranged. Patient is now in best health they have been
Total cost to patient for all that treatment- £0. Number of times she was asked for money to pay anything - 0. Number of bills she recieved which left her worrying how she would pay them - 0
I suppose, based on previous experience of when you get involved to this extent on a thread, its pointless pointing out to you that your entire scenario would have them at least trying to help and save you regardless of how much money you have or how big a donation you pay? O that it is also based on them actually at least trying to help you whilst in America it wouldnt even get beyond the front desk since youd be sent back out when they discovered you had no money to pay them?
(I’m a ghost really).
