albion:
he should have been allowed to die earlier than he did, but that is a real first world problem.
To be fair from experience a patient and their family can find themselves arguing with Doctors to stop them being steered ( pushed ) into palliative care,including the withdrawal of further hospital treatment.When all sides know that the decision is more often based on the need to ration resources.Than the patient not benefitting from further referrals and treatment as required without consideration of cost and load on resources.No surprise that side of the argument,between a patient’s wish for whatever it takes further treatment v palliative option doesn’t fit the cost cutting script.Having said that it’s important for anyone finding themselves in that type of situation to realise that hospitals do seem to be prepared to compromise in that regard to an extent ‘if’ the patient and family dig their heels in enough but not without an argument.
The conclusion I was left with being that patients being pressured into ‘palliative’ care against their will,to ration hospital resources and save costs,is a bigger problem,than anyone being pressured into treatment that they’d rather give up on and go home to die.Bearing in mind that patients have always had the fundamental right to refuse treatment.
The-Snowman:
Uh huh. And that happens every single time does it? Or is it actually much more common that they find out what’s wrong with you early and cure you and you’ve just made up an extreme case to try to justify yourself? Heres another scenario for you.
Woman is unwell. Lethargic, out of breath, cant walk from pain in chest and struggling to breath. Family call doctor who comes out and announces he wants her to go to hospital. He calls an ambulance which arrives 3 minutes later. 2 paramedics attend to patient then take her in ambulance to hospital where she is admitted, has tests run and is taken to a ward one level below intensive care. Tests are run, scans are taken over next 24 hours before family are called to announce patient has taken a severe downturn and been rushed to intensive care. Patient is diagnosed with pneumonia and spends 3 weeks in intensive care having tests and scans as well as 1 on 1 care by a nurse. Patient is eventually transferred back to the other ward where she spends a further 3 weeks of monitoring (including being on a ventilator) and then a week in a normal ward before a home report is done to assess her suitability to return home and then being released. Further follow up appoitments are also arranged. Patient is now in best health they have been
Total cost to patient for all that treatment- £0. Number of times she was asked for money to pay anything - 0. Number of bills she recieved which left her worrying how she would pay them - 0
I suppose, based on previous experience of when you get involved to this extent on a thread, its pointless pointing out to you that your entire scenario would have them at least trying to help and save you regardless of how much money you have or how big a donation you pay? O that it is also based on them actually at least trying to help you whilst in America it wouldnt even get beyond the front desk since youd be sent back out when they discovered you had no money to pay them?
None of which is much consolation to the patient who lost out in the competition for the critical care and intensive care bed you’ve referred to.Which if you’ve read the news isn’t a one off situation and even if it was once is once too often.But great no one had to pay,the true costs of proper health care,at the point of delivery so all’s good what’s not to like.It’s great to have given their life to protect the profits of their employer.
As opposed to having the power to say I’ll do the job if the wage pays for decent health care cover if not we’ll all strike.Or find some other mug who thinks it can be provided for free.Which as I said is the reality of the US view and don’t see any great exodus of those wishing to leave the country on that basis.Or for that matter people dropping like flies because of the supposed non existent access to health care provision.
teamsterscare.com/benefits-o … -overview/
Carryfast:
Franglais:
Carryfast:
To be fair the US reasoning is being misrepresented as part of the Brit establishment agenda.On that note the reality is that the American way rightly understands the conflict of interest which arises when we have the government acting as a type of dodgy controlled opposition Union baron controlling the right to negotiate between employer and employee regarding the health care component of wage demands.
While we know that the government is always on the side of the employer.Which is the flaw in the NHS system and explains why the default choice for the NHS is always rationing to suit the situation in which the employer dictates that health care component of the wage to the government.With the employee nor even the employees’ union having no right to bargain in their own right directly with the employer in that regard.On that note yes it’s the worst type of collective agreement in which ironically the government actually represents the interests of the employer not the employee and people are definitely dying because of the resulting rationing which by definition that system imposes on itself.IE the NHS is there to deal with the symptoms of low wages by imposing rationing on its consumers.As opposed to allowing unions to force the situation in which incomes have to cover health care costs from cradle to grave and all dependents without any rationing of health care provision.The fact that US wage levels are being decimated by globalisation is a different issue and going for an NHS type based system ain’t going to fix that just as it doesn’t fix it here.
That’s why the US working class are happy to vote for Trump in the mistaken belief that he will fix the issue of globalisation wrecking US living standards.But in the correct belief that the NHS was flawed from its introduction and it’s far better to have the situation of strong unions in a protected economy with a private based health care system with the incomes to afford it.
How many US private insurance companies give cover for pre-existing and congenital conditions?
How much would they charge if any do offer such cover? Are all workers going to get pay to cover the possibility of such need? Will cover continue after someone becomes so ill as not to be able to work?
That’s why the mortality in US hospitals you quoted earlier is low: the gravely ill can’t afford care, so die at home.
Look at mortality rates in hospitals, but ALSO look at life expectancy and infant mortality figures.
Did you actually read the articles stating that Brit hospitals are deciding who lives and who dies based just on available resources which translates as hard cash just as in the US example.Which obviously also includes those considered to be the wrong age,with the wrong expensive to treat illnesses,including the situation of more patients than available intensive care beds.In which case what’s the difference between a Brit being denied the required treatment and then sent home or to hospice as a ‘palliative’ case v an American who can’t afford the required treatment.They both die outside of the hospital environment so don’t get counted in either case.
As for US health cover for pre existing issues and insufficient incomes etc if it was as bad as being suggested Americans would obviously all be fleeing the place in their droves rather than them having to take extreme measures to keep illegal mass immigration out.As for the NHS it’s obviously better to fix the cause by providing well paid jobs than the symptoms in the form of unsustainable supposedly ‘free’ health care provision that can only always be anything but.With it unfortunately being the patient who is the one who suddenly finds out the hard way that the state run option has run out of cash having allowed the employers to dictate what they are prepared to pay for their employees’ health care.As opposed to the employees dictating what they are prepared to work for in terms of the real cost of decent health care cover.
hhs.gov/healthcare/about-the … index.html
There is a rationing of health care in the UK. Agreed. And it is often cost related. It is decided by NICE what treatments are effective, and are cost effective. Given that medical treatments are sophisticated and expensive there are some treatments too expensive to be used. No one is disputing that. Many factors are taken into account about patients, but, a person’s bank balance or insurance cover is NOT relevant.
Given more cash in the NHS there would be more treatments available. Of course that’s so. Seems to me we’re already getting a pretty cheap, good value for money service. Not perfect, but then, nothing is.
No need to introduce profit taking private insurance schemes, just up our payments into the kitty for ALL of us, not just those in better paid jobs.
Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
Franglais:
Carryfast:
Did you actually read the articles stating that Brit hospitals are deciding who lives and who dies based just on available resources which translates as hard cash just as in the US example.Which obviously also includes those considered to be the wrong age,with the wrong expensive to treat illnesses,including the situation of more patients than available intensive care beds.In which case what’s the difference between a Brit being denied the required treatment and then sent home or to hospice as a ‘palliative’ case v an American who can’t afford the required treatment.They both die outside of the hospital environment so don’t get counted in either case.
As for US health cover for pre existing issues and insufficient incomes etc if it was as bad as being suggested Americans would obviously all be fleeing the place in their droves rather than them having to take extreme measures to keep illegal mass immigration out.As for the NHS it’s obviously better to fix the cause by providing well paid jobs than the symptoms in the form of unsustainable supposedly ‘free’ health care provision that can only always be anything but.With it unfortunately being the patient who is the one who suddenly finds out the hard way that the state run option has run out of cash having allowed the employers to dictate what they are prepared to pay for their employees’ health care.As opposed to the employees dictating what they are prepared to work for in terms of the real cost of decent health care cover.
hhs.gov/healthcare/about-the … index.html
There is a rationing of health care in the UK. Agreed. And it is often cost related. It is decided by NICE what treatments are effective, and are cost effective. Given that medical treatments are sophisticated and expensive there are some treatments too expensive to be used. No one is disputing that. Many factors are taken into account about patients, but, a person’s bank balance or insurance cover is NOT relevant.
Given more cash in the NHS there would be more treatments available. Of course that’s so. Seems to me we’re already getting a pretty cheap, good value for money service. Not perfect, but then, nothing is.
No need to introduce profit taking private insurance schemes, just up our payments into the kitty for ALL of us, not just those in better paid jobs.
We’re obviously discussing the basics of the essential equipment needed to run a hospital worthy of the name.As I said the NHS is over rated dangerously so given the wrong circumstances of the wrong person with the wrong illness competing for catastrophically limited critical/intensive care provision for just one example.Or caught up in the time bomb of a long wait with an illness that needs immediate attention in struggling A and E departments.
media.springernature.com/lw785/ … 1_HTML.gif
So how do we ‘all’ supposedly up our payments into the kitty when,unlike the US system,there is no direct link between the health care provision side of the equation and the wage/income bargaining side needed to pay for it.When the Brit system is more likely to just be a case of upping indirect purchase tax like fuel duty with no respective increased wage demands/offers to match the increase.Meaning that people just downsize their cars and/or travel less than before to avoid the tax resulting in the same demand for health care but even less tax revenues to pay for it.So the status quo continues of Brits way over estimating the quality of the NHS while hypocritically moaning about the US system.
Carryfast:
Franglais:
Carryfast:
Did you actually read the articles stating that Brit hospitals are deciding who lives and who dies based just on available resources which translates as hard cash just as in the US example.Which obviously also includes those considered to be the wrong age,with the wrong expensive to treat illnesses,including the situation of more patients than available intensive care beds.In which case what’s the difference between a Brit being denied the required treatment and then sent home or to hospice as a ‘palliative’ case v an American who can’t afford the required treatment.They both die outside of the hospital environment so don’t get counted in either case.
As for US health cover for pre existing issues and insufficient incomes etc if it was as bad as being suggested Americans would obviously all be fleeing the place in their droves rather than them having to take extreme measures to keep illegal mass immigration out.As for the NHS it’s obviously better to fix the cause by providing well paid jobs than the symptoms in the form of unsustainable supposedly ‘free’ health care provision that can only always be anything but.With it unfortunately being the patient who is the one who suddenly finds out the hard way that the state run option has run out of cash having allowed the employers to dictate what they are prepared to pay for their employees’ health care.As opposed to the employees dictating what they are prepared to work for in terms of the real cost of decent health care cover.
hhs.gov/healthcare/about-the … index.html
There is a rationing of health care in the UK. Agreed. And it is often cost related. It is decided by NICE what treatments are effective, and are cost effective. Given that medical treatments are sophisticated and expensive there are some treatments too expensive to be used. No one is disputing that. Many factors are taken into account about patients, but, a person’s bank balance or insurance cover is NOT relevant.
Given more cash in the NHS there would be more treatments available. Of course that’s so. Seems to me we’re already getting a pretty cheap, good value for money service. Not perfect, but then, nothing is.
No need to introduce profit taking private insurance schemes, just up our payments into the kitty for ALL of us, not just those in better paid jobs.
We’re obviously discussing the basics of the essential equipment needed to run a hospital worthy of the name.As I said the NHS is over rated dangerously so given the wrong circumstances of the wrong person with the wrong illness competing for catastrophically limited critical/intensive care provision for just one example.Or caught up in the time bomb of a long wait with an illness that needs immediate attention in struggling A and E departments.
media.springernature.com/lw785/ … 1_HTML.gif
So how do we ‘all’ supposedly up our payments into the kitty when,unlike the US system,there is no direct link between the health care provision side of the equation and the wage/income bargaining side needed to pay for it.When the Brit system is more likely to just be a case of upping indirect purchase tax like fuel duty with no respective increased wage demands/offers to match the increase.Meaning that people just downsize their cars and/or travel less than before to avoid the tax resulting in the same demand for health care but even less tax revenues to pay for it.So the status quo continues of Brits way over estimating the quality of the NHS while hypocritically moaning about the US system.
In the US system there is clearly “no link” between one’s need for treatment and the chance of receiving it.
And to increase funds for the UK NHS, why overlook the obvious? Stick a little bit on income tax.
And even stick quite a big bit more on income tax and solve
Hospitals Roads Schools at a stroke.
Over-simplistic?
Maybe, but which societies in the world are the most content? There are some interesting studies out there. (along with nonsense from the wackos who equate tax with theft)
I’ll let you look for yourself, and see how contentment rates against tax levels.
And contentment is also a good indicator for health and life expectancy.
Edit to add.
The US has high standards of care, no arguments, but only for those rich enough to pay cash or insurance dividends.
Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
Carryfast:
None of which is much consolation to the patient who lost out in the competition for the critical care and intensive care bed you’ve referred to.Which if you’ve read the news isn’t a one off situation and even if it was once is once too often.But great no one had to pay,the true costs of proper health care,at the point of delivery so all’s good what’s not to like.It’s great to have given their life to protect the profits of their employer.
What competition would that be?
She deteriorated on the Tuesday morning and had an intensive care bed within 15 minutes. Whos lost out in that 15 minute window exactly?
Yes, it is great she didnt have to pay (leaving aside thats what your NI contributions are for) because she couldnt afford medical insurance (probably wouldnt get cover anyway due to her illnesses. See the flaw in your ideals yet?) and sure as ■■■■ couldnt have afforded the medical care she needed out of her pension. That is the whole point of the nhs
Do you realise in the American system that you crave and adore so much that your insurance company will dispute large bills because its cheaper for them to pay lawyers fees and bank on you dying before they need to pay out? Or that the rich get preferential treatment and can jump the queue ahead of the less well off because of the size of cheque they can write?
Our nhs is the envy of the world, despite not being perfect, and here we have ungrateful ■■■■■ like you looking to rip it apart.
I find it ironic however that you mention “not much consolation to the patient who lost out on the competition for the bed” to slate the nhs in favour of the American system when that is exactly the scenario facing people in countries like America where your wealth makes you win that competition every time. Or that your company pays better insurance than someone elses
Carryfast:
.Or for that matter people dropping like flies because of the supposed non existent access to health care provision.
No ones dropping like flies due to the lack of intensive care beds either but that doesnt stop you magnifying it to try to justify your point
Carryfast:
It’s great to have given their life to protect the profits of their employer.
Eh?
In the US system there is clearly “no link” between one’s need for treatment and the chance of receiving it.
And to increase funds for the UK NHS, why overlook the obvious? Stick a little bit on income tax.
And even stick quite a big bit more on income tax and solve
Hospitals Roads Schools at a stroke.
Over-simplistic?
Maybe, but which societies in the world are the most content? There are some interesting studies out there. (along with nonsense from the wackos who equate tax with theft)
I’ll let you look for yourself, and see how contentment rates against tax levels.
And contentment is also a good indicator for health and life expectancy.
Edit to add.
The US has high standards of care, no arguments, but only for those rich enough to pay cash or insurance dividends.
Given the difference in a system in which the guvnor can’t say why it’s ‘free’ in the case of wage demands required to pay for reasonable standards of health care provision how do you reach the conclusion that increasing taxation of any type to pay for the costs will work.When even under the punishing rates of income tax imposed by the Wilson administration still predictably didn’t provide Brits with the type of health care enjoyed by the average US worker.Especially in the well organised unionised environment of the 1960’s US economic powerhouse.While your blinkered view,that high taxes will fix everything, ignores basic economics in that it’s economic growth and the resulting growth in income levels which goes with that which provides the spending power needed for a decent health care provision.
As opposed to taxation of whatever type actually being a drain and a dampener on spending and therefore economic growth.Also bearing in mind as I’ve said wage demands and settlements are rarely if ever based on taxation levels,as opposed to prices.In this case the price of health care just like the price of baked beans.IE it’s just another cost of living which needs to be passed back into the economy in the form of income demands.While a tax based payment method just gets in the way of that obviously to the advantage of the employer and the disadvantage of the employee and patient.
IE as I said your failed idealistic state funded idea in practice is just a case of Employees = boss we need more wages to pay for our health care costs.Boss = Why it’s free and doesn’t cost you anything. 
As for theUS.Employees = Boss we need more wages to pay for our health care cover.Boss = why when I can transfer your jobs to China where they are happy to treat their workforce like a slave labour force and if they get sick tough who cares let em die there’s plenty more where they came from.Employees = does that mean you’ll plough your extra profits into topping up our unemployment benefits so we can still afford our health care cover.Boss = dream on.
The-Snowman:
Carryfast:
None of which is much consolation to the patient who lost out in the competition for the critical care and intensive care bed you’ve referred to.Which if you’ve read the news isn’t a one off situation and even if it was once is once too often.But great no one had to pay,the true costs of proper health care,at the point of delivery so all’s good what’s not to like.It’s great to have given their life to protect the profits of their employer.
What competition would that be?
She deteriorated on the Tuesday morning and had an intensive care bed within 15 minutes. Whos lost out in that 15 minute window exactly?
Yes, it is great she didnt have to pay (leaving aside thats what your NI contributions are for) because she couldnt afford medical insurance (probably wouldnt get cover anyway due to her illnesses. See the flaw in your ideals yet?) and sure as [zb] couldnt have afforded the medical care she needed out of her pension. That is the whole point of the nhs
Do you realise in the American system that you crave and adore so much that your insurance company will dispute large bills because its cheaper for them to pay lawyers fees and bank on you dying before they need to pay out? Or that the rich get preferential treatment and can jump the queue ahead of the less well off because of the size of cheque they can write?
Our nhs is the envy of the world, despite not being perfect, and here we have ungrateful [zb] like you looking to rip it apart.
I find it ironic however that you mention “not much consolation to the patient who lost out on the competition for the bed” to slate the nhs in favour of the American system when that is exactly the scenario facing people in countries like America where your wealth makes you win that competition every time. Or that your company pays better insurance than someone elses
Carryfast:
.Or for that matter people dropping like flies because of the supposed non existent access to health care provision.
No ones dropping like flies due to the lack of intensive care beds either but that doesnt stop you magnifying it to try to justify your point
Carryfast:
It’s great to have given their life to protect the profits of their employer.
Eh?
Firstly I don’t ‘crave and adore the American system’ the German one would be better for us.
Strange how you think that the competition I was referring to for intensive care provision ends at the point when it’s been allocated to a patient as opposed to the whole period of that patient’s use of it.
Remind us of the magnitude of the difference in the German critical care provision v UK for just one example which I posted.Or for that matter being described as ‘’ having the most consumer orientated healthcare system in Europe’‘.’‘Patients are allowed to seek almost any type of care they wish whenever they want it’'.
The point being that it doesn’t matter whether it’s the NHS taxation funded system of the US private funded system if the jobs and the income levels needed to pay for it ain’t there.On that note unsurprisingly I’m not aware of any Union wage negotiation calling for higher incomes to pay for the cost of health care to at least the German standard.Probably because under a taxation based system the employer would say why it’s free and doesn’t cost you anything and wage demands aren’t usually if ever based on taxation levels as opposed to prices.
As I said it’s so much better to risk people’s lives in the resulting rationed health care system to maintain employers’ profitability.While the US problem is all about falling income levels,caused directly and indirectly,by US jobs being lost to cheap labour countries,making health care unaffordable.Not the way in which their health care system is paid for.
A new example from personal experience.
UK - a doctor has the right to impose a DNR order on a person against their and their family’s wishes. 
US-the patient or their attorney has the final say and the right to request CPR be carried out or not regardless.
Feel free to prefer the Brit option.
Well firstly it’s not simply a case of them just deciding without telling anyone , nor do they just decide to issue a DNR without good cause and reason but even at that, Ill still take the UK option since the US option wont even get that far if you dont have the correct insurance or means to pay.
Incidentally, I assume both you and (if theyre still alive) your elderly parents don’t use the NHS?
The-Snowman:
Well firstly it’s not simply a case of them just deciding without telling anyone , nor do they just decide to issue a DNR without good cause and reason but even at that, Ill still take the UK option since the US option wont even get that far if you dont have the correct insurance or means to pay.
Incidentally, I assume both you and (if theyre still alive) your elderly parents don’t use the NHS?
Firstly in the case of the DNR issue the fear is breaking an elderly person’s ribs and other type injuries or bringing back a vegetable because the heart took too long to start up again.Under that type of bs threat even I’d want to be DNR’d at any age.However as we all know the reality is broken ribs or more severe injuries or being brought back as a vegetable are an acceptable risk and generally means the deliverer is doing it wrong without decent training which says to avoid those issues in the form of technique and knowing when to stop.Yes we all know the risk of the amateur good samaritan getting all that wrong and again that applies at any age not just the elderly and no one walks around with a DNR form pinned to their back anyway.While equally generally CPR ain’t going to work anyway in most cases at which point being dead with broken ribs is acedemic while if it works broken ribs never killed anyone unlike a stopped heart.
As for myself and my remaining hanging onto life by a thread mum.Just hope that none of your loved ones ends up in the situation of wrongly being thrown on the palliative ‘care’ ( stealth euthanasia ) scrap heap.Subjected to lethal drug cocktails like pre gablin and oral morphine and Fentanyl and/or Lorazapam just to supposedly ‘relieve’ the supposed pain and distress of leg ulcer issues and home nurses refusing point blank to carry out instructed prescribed wound disinfection.With the all too predictable effects of that now confirmed having been readmitted to hospital after combined seizure/arrest and severe infection and medication toxicity issues.In addition to the death sentence of that also removing the person from ongoing essential programmed out patient Cancer treatment follow up and check ups resulting in it’s all too predictable return.In addition to the results of reinfection all because the risks of surgical intervention to deal with Ischaemic leg issues were supposedly considered too much ( more like too expensive ).The result now being told off the record that mistakes happen.
On that note regarding the murderous nature of the so called ‘palliative care’ option,often to save the cash required to treat complicated expensive illnesses among low priority demographics,we aren’t talking about US private v UK NHS.It’s an international issue which knows no boundaries.Wake up and smell the coffee as it stands given the wrong illness in the wrong circumstances all health care including adult social services forcing it against the patient’s will becomes something to be feared whoever provides it. 
hospicepatients.org/euth-center.html
Ironically this warning,concerning the OP’s potential future status,regardless of how we pay for health care,will have been blocked by him.
Like I said, a DNR doesn’t just happen with no warning, nor do they decide in a 20-second window “Nah, lets just not bother” without good reason or because they just don’t want to. You waffling on about other stuff doesn’t change that.
Secondly, the hypocrisy from you is astounding. You’ll use the nhs and free healthcare but slag it off?
Go pay for private healthcare if you don’t like what you’re getting on the NHS. You dont like it, stop using it and leave it for those of us who appreciate it
The-Snowman:
Like I said, a DNR doesn’t just happen with no warning, nor do they decide in a 20-second window “Nah, lets just not bother” without good reason or because they just don’t want to. You waffling on about other stuff doesn’t change that.
Secondly, the hypocrisy from you is astounding. You’ll use the nhs and free healthcare but slag it off?
Go pay for private healthcare if you don’t like what you’re getting on the NHS. You dont like it, stop using it and leave it for those of us who appreciate it
A DNR is issued summarily in a matter of minutes.To be fair recent events suggest that a patient’s wishes can trump the doctor’s call,assuming the patient is well enough to make the decision clearly and understands the question.
I didn’t slag off the NHS.I said all health care has to be paid for and having the government stand in the way of and taking over the bargaining process between employee and employer,regarding the money needed to cover health care costs,obviously provides the employer with the excuse of it’s supposedly ‘free’,is just a recipe for conflict of interest and rationing in all it’s forms.Including the issue of expensive complicated to treat low priority demographic patients being dumped on the deadly palliative care ( stealth euthanasia ) scrap heap.
While a private funded US type health system also doesn’t totally fix all that because the same conflict of interest,of health care cover providers wanting to save cash at the expense of the patient,still exists.
As for the choice of private funded v NHS fine.Just so long as that also means being able to opt out out of NHS taxation regime retrospectively on the basis of why should private patients have to pay twice.Although none of which is much help when health care providers decide to force vulnerable patients into the death sentence of Hospice,under the guise of ‘palliative care’,to save the cash and resources needed to treat their illnesses in a fight for their lives to the end.On that note effectively allowing the institutionalised euthanising of a vulnerable human relative isn’t exactly the same thing as taking a pet dog to be put down at the vet.
Carryfast:
Just so long as that also means being able to opt out out of NHS taxation regime retrospectively on the basis of why should private patients have to pay twice.
Well I agree with you there.
Based on the rest however, when you stop using the nhs you can then slag them off about how bad they are and how they just seem to want you to either die or just sit on drugs under a “guise”. If it was a bad as you say then you wouldnt use them, youd go private.
You want your cake and to eat it too.
The-Snowman:
Carryfast:
Just so long as that also means being able to opt out out of NHS taxation regime retrospectively on the basis of why should private patients have to pay twice.
Well I agree with you there.
Based on the rest however, when you stop using the nhs you can then slag them off about how bad they are and how they just seem to want you to either die or just sit on drugs under a “guise”. If it was a bad as you say then you wouldnt use them, youd go private.
You want your cake and to eat it too.
When it comes to the point of a disagreement between the patient/relatives v doctors,regarding the wish to fight for life to the end regardless of the cost and resources it takes.Then Social Services ‘adult care’ step in sending the patient for what is effectively euthanasia ( Hospice ) in all but name.Which part of,it doesn’t really matter whether at that point the patient is under US type private insurance funding based Health Care or US Medicare or UK NHS taxation funding based,didn’t you understand.
On that note did you actually read the link I put up which was all US based not UK.But trust me exactly the same type of institutionalised murder of the wrong patients with the wrong illnesses is happening here just the same.Often in the name of health care rationing to save health care costs for big business health care providers and wage payers. IE stop moaning at me and just read the bleedin link then reply when you hopefully understand what’s really going on.
All just white noise carryfast.
No amount of links or irrelevant waffle will change the fact you use the nhs whilst slagging them off as incompetent or just paffing you off till you die.
You still use them (to the tune of hundreds of thousands of pounds) yet are rather indignantly telling me I should “wake up to whats going on”?
You’re contradicting yourself (as usual)
I have experienced the nhs care with both my dad and my MIL and I can assure you the care they received every time does not require me to have to “wake up”.
Take your tinfoil hat off, stop reading conspiracy theory websites and get a grip
The-Snowman:
All just white noise carryfast.
No amount of irrelevant waffle will change the fact you use the nhs whilst slagging them off.
You still use them (to the tune of hundreds of thousands of pounds)
By the same logic anyone could say exactly the same about the OP.On that note he should think himself lucky that he hasn’t yet found himself weakened by his illness ( more like exceeded the cost ration limit ) to the point where the Adult Care agency and his doctors/health care providers decide that it’s best for him to be put under Hospice ‘care’.On that note remind us exactly what illnesses are we talking about in the case of your Father and MIL and their respective ages.While I’m sure that everyone liable to being pushed into the ‘palliative care’ nightmare will have full confidence in your reassurances in that case based on your personal experiences.Whether here or in the US.
As for hundreds of thousands of pounds v the far less tax revenues I paid into the NHS how does the NHS balance the books in that case.Oh wait it can’t.
theguardian.com/society/2018 … -off-debts
Carryfast:
By the same logic anyone could say exactly the same about the OP.
No they couldnt actually since hes not using the nhs and his story and experience is exactly what will happen to us here if you had your way and the NHS was dissolved. Hes actually telling us how lucky we are to have it. Have you actually read what he wrote?
Carryfast:
On that note he should think himself lucky that he hasn’t yet found himself weakened by his illness ( more like exceeded the cost ration limit ) to the point where the Adult Care agency and his doctors/health care providers decide that it’s best for him to be put under Hospice ‘care’.
Uh huh. Which is exactly what will happen if his insurance company decides to stop paying. He has to keep working, despite both he and his wife having cancer, or his insurance company will just stop paying for the treatment. Let me just run that by you again since you seem to be having trouble taking it in. They will stop paying for his and his wifes medical bills and they will be left to die unless they raise the money themselves. He owes the ambulance company $7000 so they didnt turn up when he needed them. Are you getting this yet?
Carryfast:
On that note remind us exactly what illnesses are we talking about in the case of your Father and MIL and their respective ages.
Their illnesses are none of your business but I can assure you, both of them would be much more liable to the “pallitive care” nightmare you seem so convinced is rampant than you or your mother. My dads illness (muscle wasting is all youre getting) started before I was born and lasted till he passed away 5 years ago at the age of 56 after needing 24/7 care for over a decade. My MIL was in intensive care and seriously close to death and not once did anyone force a DNR on her, nor did they just give her a cocktail of drugs and paff her off so yes, they can take confidence in my personal experiences since its based on actual experience rather than your tin foil hat and a few website links youve read
Remind me again why, since you think the NHS is just paffing you off till you die, you still use them and dont get the private healthcare you seem convinced is the only way forward? Remind me why you still use a service you say is definitely just giving a cocktail of drugs and will force a DNR on you for any reason it wants without consulting you first?
Incidently, im curious. What on earth makes you think an insurance company spending hundreds of thousands of pounds on someones care wont go down the exact route you seem convinced the NHS does? What makes you so sure theyll pay more expensive treastment rather than using a loophole to only fund the cheapest route (if they decide to fund any at all)? Because thats what they do. What makes you think itll be different if it happens over here?
The-Snowman:
Carryfast:
By the same logic anyone could say exactly the same about the OP.
No they couldnt actually since hes not using the nhs and his story and experience is exactly what will happen to us here if you had your way and the NHS was dissolved. Hes actually telling us how lucky we are to have it. Have you actually read what he wrote?
Carryfast:
On that note he should think himself lucky that he hasn’t yet found himself weakened by his illness ( more like exceeded the cost ration limit ) to the point where the Adult Care agency and his doctors/health care providers decide that it’s best for him to be put under Hospice ‘care’.
Uh huh. Which is exactly what will happen if his insurance company decides to stop paying. He has to keep working, despite both he and his wife having cancer, or his insurance company will just stop paying for the treatment. Let me just run that by you again since you seem to be having trouble taking it in. They will stop paying for his and his wifes medical bills and they will be left to die unless they raise the money themselves. He owes the ambulance company $7000 so they didnt turn up when he needed them. Are you getting this yet?
Carryfast:
On that note remind us exactly what illnesses are we talking about in the case of your Father and MIL and their respective ages.
Their illnesses are none of your business but I can assure you, both of them would be much more liable to the “pallitive care” nightmare you seem so convinced is rampant than you or your mother. My dads illness (muscle wasting is all youre getting) started before I was born and lasted till he passed away 5 years ago at the age of 56 after needing 24/7 care for over a decade. My MIL was in intensive care and seriously close to death and not once did anyone force a DNR on her, nor did they just give her a cocktail of drugs and paff her off so yes, they can take confidence in my personal experiences since its based on actual experience rather than your tin foil hat and a few website links youve read
Remind me again why, since you think the NHS is just paffing you off till you die, you still use them and dont get the private healthcare you seem convinced is the only way forward? Remind me why you still use a service you say is definitely just giving a cocktail of drugs and will force a DNR on you for any reason it wants without consulting you first?
Incidently, im curious. What on earth makes you think an insurance company spending hundreds of thousands of pounds on someones care wont go down the exact route you seem convinced the NHS does? What makes you so sure theyll pay more expensive treastment rather than using a loophole to only fund the cheapest route (if they decide to fund any at all)? Because thats what they do. What makes you think itll be different if it happens over here?
Yes I did read what Pat wrote.So what’s the big difference between the government and employers colluding to ration health care provision,to enforce a collective cap on the health care component of wage demands under the NHS system.As opposed to Insurers colluding with employers in pulling the rug from underneath claimants under the US Insurance based system to impose a similar cap on health insurance claims and the wage demands needed to pay them.All in an environment in which neither country has the industrial clout and with it booming labour market needed to create the earnings to pay for health care.IE which part of it makes no difference don’t you,like Pat, understand.Although at least the US system doesn’t provide the employers which the place has left with the excuse that it’s all supposedly free and wage demands being capped to reflect that erroneous idea assuming the workforce is up for a fight including not voting for anyone who supports the status quo of US jobs for cheap foreign labour.Which is why the NHS owes more in debt repayments than it has to spend on patients.
As for your father and MIL you didn’t actually provide the relevant age for the MIL but I’m guessing the fact that at least your Father was 56 not 86 or even 66 and I’m guessing the MIL wasn’t much if any older explains your happy experience.In which those like my Mother who actually went through a bleedin war as a child then helped to actually build the NHS find themselves in the all too real situation of a doctor enforcing a DNR on them and palliative care after fighting and winning a fight for her life against the Sepsis caused by her uncleaned leg ulcers which the NHS were under a duty of care to do and without access to ICU facilities.With all that implies including the outside home call Hospice murder sqaud turning up on the doorstep armed with stuff like Fentanyl and Lorazzapam and Midazolam with the veiled threat of would you like us to call on Social Services Adult Care if you tell them to politely go away.All that to save the cash so that the luckier smug complacent I’m all right jacks like your family,taking advantage of typical Socialist everyone is equal but some are more equal than others ideology,can tell her and those like her and their families not to moan they are all conspiracy theorists.
As for me wanting to use the NHS in the light of my all too real experience I’ve at least told the NHS to shove its Bowell cancer screening programme up its own arris.Bearing in mind that I’d rather die a quick natural death on my own terms.Than go through loads of chemo or whatever all for the benefit of then being forced into the satanic mercies of a Hospice drug induced end when I eventually and inevitably lose the fight.
