Insecure load? REALLY?

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
101

stevieboy308:

dieseldog999:
if i lifted the items in the original pic,then id shut the curtains and be up the road.
no doubt they would be sitting exactly where the forkie left them on delivery.
if they had moved a tad,then how could it possibly matter when its a curtainsider.
if it was a flat,then strapping them would mostly be to stop someone nicking them.
if i had all day to do nothing then i dont think id even strap them as by looking at them,theres absolutely no point.they are going nowhere.
if its fallen off.its insecure.
if its hanging off.its insecure.
if its not strapped and not moved upon inspection,then its fine and only an exuse to ■■■■ the driver as an easy target for revenue.

That argument falls down because your not strapping stuff for the normal non event journey, you’re strapping stuff for the emergency stop etc

Is an unlocked house that didn’t get robbed secure?

The fact a pallet never moved doesn’t mean it was secure.

Physics disagrees with you

They are low centre of gravity pallets, at worse they may push up against the curtain, but no more. As a experiment steveboy308, get inside a curtainsider and throw yourself against the curtain and see what happens. Then do the same with a flat trailer and see what happens :unamused: Could you also get someone to video it for us then put it on youtube :laughing: You will find a difference between curtainsider and flat trailer.

Thing is due to daft rules now you have to put a strap over to look good for VOSA in case they pull you over but it is pointless because they aint going anywhere.

102

elsa Lad:

stevieboy308:

dieseldog999:
if i lifted the items in the original pic,then id shut the curtains and be up the road.
no doubt they would be sitting exactly where the forkie left them on delivery.
if they had moved a tad,then how could it possibly matter when its a curtainsider.
if it was a flat,then strapping them would mostly be to stop someone nicking them.
if i had all day to do nothing then i dont think id even strap them as by looking at them,theres absolutely no point.they are going nowhere.
if its fallen off.its insecure.
if its hanging off.its insecure.
if its not strapped and not moved upon inspection,then its fine and only an exuse to ■■■■ the driver as an easy target for revenue.

That argument falls down because your not strapping stuff for the normal non event journey, you’re strapping stuff for the emergency stop etc

Is an unlocked house that didn’t get robbed secure?

The fact a pallet never moved doesn’t mean it was secure.

Physics disagrees with you

They are low centre of gravity pallets, at worse they may push up against the curtain, but no more. As a experiment steveboy308, get inside a curtainsider and throw yourself against the curtain and see what happens. Then do the same with a flat trailer and see what happens :unamused: Could you also get someone to video it for us then put it on youtube :laughing: You will find a difference between curtainsider and flat trailer.

Thing is due to daft rules now you have to put a strap over to look good for VOSA in case they pull you over but it is pointless because they aint going anywhere.

Dude, I’ve never once said that a standard curtainsider offers no containment strength and I don’t subscribe to the it’s the same as a flat and it’s purely for weather protection. So whilst you might have carried out your experiment 3 times just to make sure, I’ll pass thanks.

The bit you’re missing, is there’s no rated strength, so where do you draw the line? 100kg, 500kg pallets with no sharp edges or pallets with just a few sharp edges! Pallets upto 1ft tall or ones upto 3tf tall.

What about running your 500kg 3tf tall with only a few sharp edge pallets for years with no issues, then switch brand of trailer and you find out it’s not quite as strong as out it comes.

An XL rated trailer will contain a load that’s a positive fit upto it’s gross weight, it’s been built and tested to meet the minimum required restraint. A standard curtainsider hasn’t.

103

59938-coil-mat-30-x-25_1_640.jpg
59938-coil-mat-30-x-25_1_640.jpg640×640 65 KB

You guys ever use these friction mats on the floor ? We’d use them under big rolls of paper stood on end in our box trailers, they’d stop the rolls sliding about but not from toppling over.

104

dieseldog999:
if i lifted the items in the original pic,then id shut the curtains and be up the road.
no doubt they would be sitting exactly where the forkie left them on delivery.
if they had moved a tad,then how could it possibly matter when its a curtainsider.
if it was a flat,then strapping them would mostly be to stop someone nicking them.
if i had all day to do nothing then i dont think id even strap them as by looking at them,theres absolutely no point.they are going nowhere.
if its fallen off.its insecure.
if its hanging off.its insecure.
if its not strapped and not moved upon inspection,then its fine and only an exuse to ■■■■ the driver as an easy target for revenue.

I know you only post ■■■■ to be controversial and provoke a reaction, but I’ll bite.

I wonder how many of these people had your attitude to load security?

dailymail.co.uk/news/articl … orner.html

youtu.be/ofE8x8Ap-Kk

shropshirestar.com/news/201 … re-border/

itv.com/news/2018-06-26/lor … -of-lager/

leicestermercury.co.uk/news … ad-2639389

I bet they all thought itll never happen to them. Until it did.

105

elsa Lad:
They are low centre of gravity pallets, at worse they may push up against the curtain, but no more. As a experiment steveboy308, get inside a curtainsider and throw yourself against the curtain and see what happens. Then do the same with a flat trailer and see what happens :unamused: Could you also get someone to video it for us .

But would you want to try the same experiment by just sitting on the floor of the trailer or standing on a bus without anything holding you or holding onto anything at normal road speeds. :unamused:

At which point I’d guess that the question is it the kinetic energy contained in your body that needs to be cancelled out or just the G force created by the potential speed differential between the load deck and you.IE yes the pallets might ‘push up against the curtain’ but with a force of half the mass of the pallet and its load x the velocity squared.Velocity being the speed of the vehicle relative to the outside world not the potential speed differential between the load and load deck.Let alone the pathetic speed that you can chuck yourself at a curtain.

That’s a lot of energy to stop or change direction to the tune of let’s say 125 to 500 kilograms x up to 22 m/s squared ? = ? joules of energy in the case of a decent pallet load,or even 15 kgs in the case of one empty pallet and it’s why the brakes get bleedin hot and the whole tyre to wheel to axle assembly needs to be so strong.Also assuming that the body mountings and suspension mountings and fastenings are all strong enough to deliver the force in question to them without breaking first let alone anyone deciding that the fastenings and the strength of all the components in question ain’t needed. :bulb:

On that note maybe we could find a DVSA volunteer to test the theory in the form of a standing bus ride without being braced by or holding onto anything solid assuming you’ve had second thoughts.By your logic he’ll have absolutely nothing to worry about because he won’t come into contact with anything with enough force to do him any damage. :laughing:

106

stevieboy308:
An XL rated trailer will contain a load that’s a positive fit upto it’s gross weight, it’s been built and tested to meet the minimum required restraint. A standard curtainsider hasn’t.

Strange in that case why manufacturers go to all the bother of massive strength steel fasteners to hold brakes to axles and wheels to hubs and axles to the chassis and truck bodies to the chassis.When all they’d need in that case should be some of the same miracle strength XL curtain material to tie it all together with. :bulb: :wink:

As for ‘positive’ fit as has been discussed elsewhere an armour piercing shell is a ‘positive fit’ at the point when it contacts the target and it only then after that smashes or melts its way through it purely on the basis of converting kinetic energy to destructive energy.

107

Carryfast:

stevieboy308:
An XL rated trailer will contain a load that’s a positive fit upto it’s gross weight, it’s been built and tested to meet the minimum required restraint. A standard curtainsider hasn’t.

Strange in that case why manufacturers go to all the bother of massive strength steel fasteners to hold brakes to axles and wheels to hubs and axles to the chassis and truck bodies to the chassis.When all they’d need in that case should be some of the same miracle strength XL curtain material to tie it all together with. :bulb: :wink:

As for ‘positive’ fit as has been discussed elsewhere an armour piercing shell is a ‘positive fit’ at the point when it contacts the target and it only then after that smashes or melts its way through it purely on the basis of converting kinetic energy to destructive energy.

WTAF are you on about

108

Always wondered why we don’t use the slat boards like our EU friends do, and also whether they satisfy the DVSA or not?

109

Reef:
Always wondered why we don’t use the slat boards like our EU friends do, and also whether they satisfy the DVSA or not?

Because to spec a trailer properly costs money and with all things haulage in the UK the cheapest option is the best and only option.

110

Mazzer2:

Reef:
Always wondered why we don’t use the slat boards like our EU friends do, and also whether they satisfy the DVSA or not?

Because to spec a trailer properly costs money and with all things haulage in the UK the cheapest option is the best and only option.

Boards wouldn’t really satisfy this coppers understanding of a safe load, and the definition of a safe load can be interpreted differently.
Krone and Schmitz trailers are fitted with reinforced curtains removing the need for certain loads being strapped down, but pallets must be side by side so they cannot slide across the trailer, it’s this ability to slide that becomes ‘unsafe’ yes it may weigh 250kg but it may as well weigh 25kg if the vehicle manoeuvres abruptly or theres severe harsh braking.
A company I worked for had to have a 1” raised lip welded to the edge of all our trailers for working in Germany they also needed loads strapped, this didn’t satisfy the Belgium’s as they needed rubber matting under pallets and the reinforced curtains would suffice ( for certain loads ).

111

stevieboy308:

Carryfast:

stevieboy308:
An XL rated trailer will contain a load that’s a positive fit upto it’s gross weight, it’s been built and tested to meet the minimum required restraint. A standard curtainsider hasn’t.

Strange in that case why manufacturers go to all the bother of massive strength steel fasteners to hold brakes to axles and wheels to hubs and axles to the chassis and truck bodies to the chassis.When all they’d need in that case should be some of the same miracle strength XL curtain material to tie it all together with. :bulb: :wink:

WTAF are you on about

To put it simply why is a curtain considered ok to hold a load on a load deck.But you need loads of high tensile steel fastenings to hold a wheel to a hub and an axle to a chassis and a truck body to the chassis ?.

The fact is a curtain sider is just a flat that doesn’t need to be sheeted to keep the load dry and that’s how the DVSA and the law will rightly see it.

As for XL curtains who knows.Probably more like the grey area of box bodies being considered as a substitute for proper load securing.Until something like this happens.

youtube.com/watch?v=UjSeZMrk_00

112

Nite Owl:

dieseldog999:
if i lifted the items in the original pic,then id shut the curtains and be up the road.
no doubt they would be sitting exactly where the forkie left them on delivery.
if they had moved a tad,then how could it possibly matter when its a curtainsider.
if it was a flat,then strapping them would mostly be to stop someone nicking them.
if i had all day to do nothing then i dont think id even strap them as by looking at them,theres absolutely no point.they are going nowhere.
if its fallen off.its insecure.
if its hanging off.its insecure.
if its not strapped and not moved upon inspection,then its fine and only an exuse to ■■■■ the driver as an easy target for revenue.

I know you only post [zb] to be controversial and provoke a reaction, but I’ll bite.

I wonder how many of these people had your attitude to load security?

dailymail.co.uk/news/articl … orner.html

youtu.be/ofE8x8Ap-Kk

shropshirestar.com/news/201 … re-border/

itv.com/news/2018-06-26/lor … -of-lager/

leicestermercury.co.uk/news … ad-2639389

I bet they all thought itll never happen to them. Until it did.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
absolutely none of those links have even the remotest connection to the 2 tiny pallets in the o/p so cop yourself on.
loads of 40 ft girders,then yes,chain them to death ect.
as for the load in question,then theres absolutely no need to restrain them in any way at all and if not for vosa opening the curtains looking for an ott nitpicking easy revenue then they would be delivered unmoved and undamaged.so dont be a sillybilly…end of… :slight_smile:

113

Had anyone else ever carried the ridiculous loads of unwrapped empty bottles from what was Quinn Glass at Elton? They were a law unto themselves, with Virginia we regularly took them down to Burton on Trent and it was hit and miss as to whether the load would hold together or not. Hit a bump slightly wrong and the whole load would just disintegrate, you’d watch it work its way down the trailer. These weren’t XL rated trailers either, just standard SDC curtainsiders and every one of them that had this happen (and it happened a lot) contained the load without any problems. 15 tonnes or more of bottles resting against the curtains. So this whole treat curtainsiders like you would a flat is generally nonsense.

114

dieseldog999:

Nite Owl:

dieseldog999:
if i lifted the items in the original pic,then id shut the curtains and be up the road.
no doubt they would be sitting exactly where the forkie left them on delivery.
if they had moved a tad,then how could it possibly matter when its a curtainsider.
if it was a flat,then strapping them would mostly be to stop someone nicking them.
if i had all day to do nothing then i dont think id even strap them as by looking at them,theres absolutely no point.they are going nowhere.
if its fallen off.its insecure.
if its hanging off.its insecure.
if its not strapped and not moved upon inspection,then its fine and only an exuse to ■■■■ the driver as an easy target for revenue.

I know you only post [zb] to be controversial and provoke a reaction, but I’ll bite.

I wonder how many of these people had your attitude to load security?

dailymail.co.uk/news/articl … orner.html

youtu.be/ofE8x8Ap-Kk

shropshirestar.com/news/201 … re-border/

itv.com/news/2018-06-26/lor … -of-lager/

leicestermercury.co.uk/news … ad-2639389

I bet they all thought itll never happen to them. Until it did.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
absolutely none of those links have even the remotest connection to the 2 tiny pallets in the o/p so cop yourself on.
loads of 40 ft girders,then yes,chain them to death ect.
as for the load in question,then theres absolutely no need to restrain them in any way at all and if not for vosa opening the curtains looking for an ott nitpicking easy revenue then they would be delivered unmoved and undamaged.so dont be a sillybilly…end of… :slight_smile:

Every one of them links is relevant to the two pallets in the OP. Each one shows why “drivers discretion” is not allowed. Each one shows why the rules are applied evenly across the board with no room for interpretation. Each one shows a drivers opinion to be wrong, I mean, how can a driver look at 17 ton of chipboard and not think it needs securing?

The rules are applied evenly to each and every load, even though most of the time its overkill, so drivers know what is expected of them. The reason those two pallets in the OP need securing is because the industry is filled with the lazy and stupid drivers like those above who either cant be arsed or are too stupid to see what’s obvious. And now we’re all being treated as incompetent muppets.

115

switchlogic:
Had anyone else ever carried the ridiculous loads of unwrapped empty bottles from what was Quinn Glass at Elton? They were a law unto themselves, with Virginia we regularly took them down to Burton on Trent and it was hit and miss as to whether the load would hold together or not. Hit a bump slightly wrong and the whole load would just disintegrate, you’d watch it work its way down the trailer. These weren’t XL rated trailers either, just standard SDC curtainsiders and every one of them that had this happen (and it happened a lot) contained the load without any problems. 15 tonnes or more of bottles resting against the curtains. So this whole treat curtainsiders like you would a flat is generally nonsense.

Didn’t do it from there, but in the mid nighties we used to do it from Knottingley to reading. Glass beer bottles on pallets,no shrink wrap and shiney plastic between the bottles. The loaders would just stand some gkns up at the back then put a ■■■■■■■■.

I did about 10 loads, real heart in the mouth job. When 2-3 bottles fall out the whole Lot would give way. Enough to roll the load over if it gave way when you was cornering.

That brought some bad memories back. Think some of them on hear would have a fit if they saw the loads. No way would I do that now .

116

My understanding is that tauntliners were introduced to negate the need for sheeting, not roping.

How hard is it to throw straps over a load ffs?

Just lazy poor attitude to the job, imo.

117

rambo19:
My understanding is that tauntliners were introduced to negate the need for sheeting, not roping.

How hard is it to throw straps over a load ffs?

Just lazy poor attitude to the job, imo.

Ironically there are some posts in the old times site which show some original tautliner advertising hype which suggests that a curtain sider would/could replace the need for ‘both’ roping ‘and’ sheeting.However that obviously doesn’t mean should going by DVSA’s fair translation.The problem seems to be mostly created by the widespread deletion of rope hooks in the day and to date creating an obvious slippery slope to where we are now in that regard of drivers having taken that at face value.

Meanwhile this is the definitive view of the curtain sider design and why it exists and how it should be used.Many Brit drivers and possibly some operators should be ashamed of their amateurish approach to this question.It’s a flat that doesn’t need to be sheeted nothing more nothing less.

rolandcurtains.com/blog/comp … rp-systems

118

Carryfast:

stevieboy308:

Carryfast:

stevieboy308:
An XL rated trailer will contain a load that’s a positive fit upto it’s gross weight, it’s been built and tested to meet the minimum required restraint. A standard curtainsider hasn’t.

Strange in that case why manufacturers go to all the bother of massive strength steel fasteners to hold brakes to axles and wheels to hubs and axles to the chassis and truck bodies to the chassis.When all they’d need in that case should be some of the same miracle strength XL curtain material to tie it all together with. :bulb: :wink:

WTAF are you on about

To put it simply why is a curtain considered ok to hold a load on a load deck.But you need loads of high tensile steel fastenings to hold a wheel to a hub and an axle to a chassis and a truck body to the chassis ?.

The fact is a curtain sider is just a flat that doesn’t need to be sheeted to keep the load dry and that’s how the DVSA and the law will rightly see it.

As for XL curtains who knows.Probably more like the grey area of box bodies being considered as a substitute for proper load securing.Until something like this happens.

youtube.com/watch?v=UjSeZMrk_00

Dude, are you really, really asking that? You can’t be, I must have it wrong, because if you were it’d be some of the most stupid ■■■■ I’ve seen

119

stevieboy308:

Carryfast:
To put it simply why is a curtain considered ok to hold a load on a load deck.But you need loads of high tensile steel fastenings to hold a wheel to a hub and an axle to a chassis and a truck body to the chassis ?.

Dude, are you really, really asking that? You can’t be, I must have it wrong, because if you were it’d be some of the most stupid [zb] I’ve seen

No it’s the idea that a curtain is supposed to secure a load to the load deck which is really stupid.Not the idea that a load will need to be secured to the load deck more or less as good as the body is secured to the chassis. :unamused:

120

switchlogic:
Had anyone else ever carried the ridiculous loads of unwrapped empty bottles from what was Quinn Glass at Elton? They were a law unto themselves, with Virginia we regularly took them down to Burton on Trent and it was hit and miss as to whether the load would hold together or not. Hit a bump slightly wrong and the whole load would just disintegrate, you’d watch it work its way down the trailer. These weren’t XL rated trailers either, just standard SDC curtainsiders and every one of them that had this happen (and it happened a lot) contained the load without any problems. 15 tonnes or more of bottles resting against the curtains. So this whole treat curtainsiders like you would a flat is generally nonsense.

I’m generally in agreement with you normally!!

But other than carryfast, it’s one of the daftest things I’ve read.

Why on earth would a company continually send our their product not wrapped properly, knowing there’s a high risk there’s gonna be damage? You could understand their first load being not up to scratch, but if there’s a problem, you fix it.

Why would a haulage company not say you’re gonna have to do better and continually load stuff that’s a high risk of falling over?

Why would drivers continually load out of the place without standing up and saying i ain’t doing that again unless they come up with something better?

Why would the company buying the goods continually put up with the poor service, either having to over order or short their customers, constantly restacking / cleaning up the mess?

It is crazy on all parts, and surely stuff like this is the perfect example of why there’s been a clamp down.

It’s also a perfect example of ‘let the driver decide’ doesn’t work, I’m no squeaky clean everything by the book, but you’ve got to have some common sense about it.

Maybe them curtains could have taken 30t, maybe more, who knows? No one, that’s the point!! Your 15t might have be 500kg or 1t inside it’s burst point, or one emergency stop away from Annie Lennox’s longest walk!

Maybe they decide to buy some new trailers, they’re lighter, but not quite as strong, everything is a compromise, maybe they wouldn’t take the 15t, maybe they would, again, no one knows, you’re rolling the dice and I’ll tell you what, I’ve just been reading about the driver who killed a 3 year old on a crossing, he’s just been convicted, have you seen it? read the comments? What do you think the general consensus and comments would be if you lost your unstrapped load off a standard curtainsider and killed a kid? There’s calls for murdering this guy, he accidentally drove through a red light due to being distracted by a car parked on the zig zags, and it had horrendous consequences, I did a similar thing in a car years ago, but just like 99% of the time, nothing happened.