6 Minutes of Leave Campaign Lies
…and that’t the video posted a few days after the referendum,back in July 2016, and everything back then starts falling apart for Brexiters
hkloss1:
BREXIT: "We face challenges from Moscow, Beijing & Washington - Why give up EU stability?
EU stability? Years of economic stagnation, cuasing millions to be unemployed, especially the young, and now it seems the signs of an economic recovery seem to be a bit optimistic. French Yellow vest protests in their 16th week, Le Penn and Macron neck and neck in the polls, Catalonian vote put down with force not seen since the days of Franco, leaders on trial in Madrid, one in exile in Belgium, Hungary, Poland and Czech republic in thier own group in opposition to EU policies, Italy voting in a goverment hostile to the EU, the rise of right wing groups across Europe getting a foothold in national parliaments and who knows what the European Parliment will look like after this years elections?
Personally Im fairly relaxed about the SAFETY of GM plants and hormone fed meat products. Chlorine washing isnt a big worry for me either.
I am however concerned much more about the excessive use of antibiotics that seems prevalent in intensive systems. I`m also not happy with lowered welfare standards for intensively reared animals.
To compete on a level playing field will our farmers have to lower standards for animals? How can they compete against cheaper imports, and retain the standards we currently expect?
Cheaper food is possible, and maybe we can keep it safe, but is that what the majority of us want?
Cows in concrete sheds rather than fields, chickens in much smaller areas, etc. Much cheaper to get meat like that…
I know! Lets have a referendum! Thatll keep everyone happy, won`t it?
Franglais:
Personally Im fairly relaxed about the SAFETY of GM plants and hormone fed meat products. Chlorine washing isnt a big worry for me either.
I am however concerned much more about the excessive use of antibiotics that seems prevalent in intensive systems. I`m also not happy with lowered welfare standards for intensively reared animals.To compete on a level playing field will our farmers have to lower standards for animals? How can they compete against cheaper imports, and retain the standards we currently expect?
Cheaper food is possible, and maybe we can keep it safe, but is that what the majority of us want?
Cows in concrete sheds rather than fields, chickens in much smaller areas, etc. Much cheaper to get meat like that…
I know! Lets have a referendum! Thatll keep everyone happy, won`t it?
Why do you believe a UK US trade deal is done and dusted?
It would have to go through Parliment, the Conservative hardly have a majority, can’t see the DUP supporting it, I believe there is quite a lot of livestock farming in Northern Ireland and then there are the many Conservative MP’s from farming background and rural communities, and can’t really see the Labour Party getting behind it, of course like with TTIP we the people must lobby, protest, raise awareness of the issues and generally make a nusience of ourselves to stop it.
Personally I see free trade agreements generally work against the people not improve their lives, having cheaper goods is not much good if wages are reduced because of having to compete on equal terms or factories move because it’s now cheaper to make the goods elsewhere after the removal of trade barriers and tariffs.
muckles:
Franglais:
Personally Im fairly relaxed about the SAFETY of GM plants and hormone fed meat products. Chlorine washing isnt a big worry for me either.
I am however concerned much more about the excessive use of antibiotics that seems prevalent in intensive systems. I`m also not happy with lowered welfare standards for intensively reared animals.To compete on a level playing field will our farmers have to lower standards for animals? How can they compete against cheaper imports, and retain the standards we currently expect?
Cheaper food is possible, and maybe we can keep it safe, but is that what the majority of us want?
Cows in concrete sheds rather than fields, chickens in much smaller areas, etc. Much cheaper to get meat like that…
I know! Lets have a referendum! Thatll keep everyone happy, won`t it?Why do you believe a UK US trade deal is done and dusted?
It would have to go through Parliment, the Conservative hardly have a majority, can’t see the DUP supporting it, I believe there is quite a lot of livestock farming in Northern Ireland and then there are the many Conservative MP’s from farming background and rural communities, and can’t really see the Labour Party getting behind it, of course like with TTIP we the people must lobby, protest, raise awareness of the issues and generally make a nusience of ourselves to stop it.
Personally I see free trade agreements generally work against the people not improve their lives, having cheaper goods is not much good if wages are reduced because of having to compete on equal terms or factories move because it’s now cheaper to make the goods elsewhere after the removal of trade barriers and tariffs.
Hold up!
I wasnt commenting exclusively on any UK/USA or any other deal, done or otherwise. I was more responding to Adam saying that he apparently didnt care about animal welfare so long as food was edible.
I was saying that there are a lot of issues concerning food, safety, and trade that all need to be addressed*.
And I agree with you that having too free a market is the “race to the bottom”, if thats what youre saying.
That is one of the reasons I reckon we should stay in the EU.
As an independent single Nation the UK is too small to stand alone (I can hear the wind-up gramophone records of Vera Lynn being cranked up!) As part of the EU we can achieve more against the USA, and in the future maybe the Chinese markets.
Free trade deals arent all the same after all: they are all tailor made. None are truly 100% anything goes deals. As part of a bigger block we can do more than we can alone. We have more clout as part of a bigger group. That isnt talking ourselves down, it`s being realistic.
euronews.com/2019/03/02/us- … trade-deal
He is right that we shouldnt let false health scares stand in our way to progress. BUT we should be very concerned over the excess use of antibiotics, and I reckon animal welfare too. To compete with cheaper imports, if allowed, wont our farmers need to employ more radical stock densities, in the name of efficiency?
Do you trust the word of the current minister M. Gove that out standards wont be dropped? I dont: political promises have no worth in my book.
(*I missed out the issues of big agrochemical companies “owning” the genetic sequence of seeds they sell so that farmers cannot even produce their own seed in later years.)
hkloss1:
I’m a gullible moron, incapable of thought, here’s a YouTube/media link so I don’t actually have to explain myself. I hope people in the UK will die so I can get a chance to ignore democracy.
Fixed that, you’re welcome…
Sums it up for me, what an utter ■■■■■
Don’t mind discussing brexit on an adult level, but this EU media ■■■■■ is pathetic.
blue estate:
Who lets this Tawt lose to post on here !!!
all he posts is Brexit scaremongering crap
You think this is bilge, on the other one he was hoping for a second vote and that it would be won because people old enough to have some knowledge of both before and after the EU would be dead? He actually wants UK citizens to die in the hope he could win a vote, he’s feecking vile.
I’d rather break bread with a ■■■■■ than this vermin…
Franglais:
Hold up!
I wasnt commenting exclusively on any UK/USA or any other deal, done or otherwise. I was more responding to Adam saying that he apparently didnt care about animal welfare so long as food was edible.
I was saying that there are a lot of issues concerning food, safety, and trade that all need to be addressed*.
And I agree with you that having too free a market is the “race to the bottom”, if thats what youre saying.
That is one of the reasons I reckon we should stay in the EU.
As an independent single Nation the UK is too small to stand alone (I can hear the wind-up gramophone records of Vera Lynn being cranked up!) As part of the EU we can achieve more against the USA, and in the future maybe the Chinese markets.
Free trade deals arent all the same after all: they are all tailor made. None are truly 100% anything goes deals. As part of a bigger block we can do more than we can alone. We have more clout as part of a bigger group. That isnt talking ourselves down, it`s being realistic.euronews.com/2019/03/02/us- … trade-deal
He is right that we shouldnt let false health scares stand in our way to progress. BUT we should be very concerned over the excess use of antibiotics, and I reckon animal welfare too. To compete with cheaper imports, if allowed, wont our farmers need to employ more radical stock densities, in the name of efficiency?
Do you trust the word of the current minister M. Gove that out standards wont be dropped? I dont: political promises have no worth in my book.(*I missed out the issues of big agrochemical companies “owning” the genetic sequence of seeds they sell so that farmers cannot even produce their own seed in later years.)
Sorry miss-understood your post, but stand by what I wrote.
I personally think we should be worried about the wishes and activities of large agri groups.
However even though I think we’ve been lead down the Brexit route from a referendum called on a false premises of trying to hold the Conservative party together to having no plan and now wheeling and dealing by MP’s with thier own agendas, the idea we’re better off being in a large organisation like the EU I’m not so sure about, yes of course in theory the large organisation should be able yo call the shots, but do they have our best interests at heart when they do these deals?
I believe a recent ECJ ruling has made this worse, from what I understand it stops individual EU countries blocking trade deals, in theory this means an electorate might vote in a national goverment on a manifesto that they’ll protect some industry or other sector, but that democratically elected goverment can be over ruled by the EU in the name of a free trade deal.
Is the UK really too small to stand alone?
Again yes of course bieng part of a big group has its advantages, but alone the UK still has a larger economy than many other countries who are doing deal with the EU and US,
The EU has negotiated a trade deals with Korea and Cananda and I believe both have smaller economies and populations than the UK.
At the moment I’m sat in a hotel in Italy watching France 24 talking about how Brexit effects ROI farmers, they say that we are the biggest market for thier beef, worth €1bn per year, trying to sell that elsewhere in the EU will collapse not just the Irish beef market, but the rest of the EU beef market and this is a pro EU channel.
I’ve also met several other people from Germany to Portugal who are worried about the effects of a no deal on thier sectors of the economy, I think it will be bad for the UK, but it will also be bad for many in the EU and for both us and the rest of the EU should avoided at all costs, even if that means a delay or no Brexit, although I’m not sure if more months and years of uncertainty would be good for business.
As I’ve tried to explain to many people who believe this is some binary choice, I’m pro European, I often feel more at home in mainland Europe than in the UK, but I’m not pro EU, I used to be, but in recent years I’ve come to believe that the EU is working to the detriment of the average European worker, but with vested interests so ingrained, at least before 2016, reform was an impossible dream.
muckles:
Franglais:
Hold up!
I wasnt commenting exclusively on any UK/USA or any other deal, done or otherwise. I was more responding to Adam saying that he apparently didnt care about animal welfare so long as food was edible.
I was saying that there are a lot of issues concerning food, safety, and trade that all need to be addressed*.
And I agree with you that having too free a market is the “race to the bottom”, if thats what youre saying.
That is one of the reasons I reckon we should stay in the EU.
As an independent single Nation the UK is too small to stand alone (I can hear the wind-up gramophone records of Vera Lynn being cranked up!) As part of the EU we can achieve more against the USA, and in the future maybe the Chinese markets.
Free trade deals arent all the same after all: they are all tailor made. None are truly 100% anything goes deals. As part of a bigger block we can do more than we can alone. We have more clout as part of a bigger group. That isnt talking ourselves down, it`s being realistic.euronews.com/2019/03/02/us- … trade-deal
He is right that we shouldnt let false health scares stand in our way to progress. BUT we should be very concerned over the excess use of antibiotics, and I reckon animal welfare too. To compete with cheaper imports, if allowed, wont our farmers need to employ more radical stock densities, in the name of efficiency?
Do you trust the word of the current minister M. Gove that out standards wont be dropped? I dont: political promises have no worth in my book.(*I missed out the issues of big agrochemical companies “owning” the genetic sequence of seeds they sell so that farmers cannot even produce their own seed in later years.)
Sorry miss-understood your post, but stand by what I wrote.
I personally think we should be worried about the wishes and activities of large agri groups.
However even though I think we’ve been lead down the Brexit route from a referendum called on a false premises of trying to hold the Conservative party together to having no plan and now wheeling and dealing by MP’s with thier own agendas, the idea we’re better off being in a large organisation like the EU I’m not so sure about, yes of course in theory the large organisation should be able yo call the shots, but do they have our best interests at heart when they do these deals?
I believe a recent ECJ ruling has made this worse, from what I understand it stops individual EU countries blocking trade deals, in theory this means an electorate might vote in a national goverment on a manifesto that they’ll protect some industry or other sector, but that democratically elected goverment can be over ruled by the EU in the name of a free trade deal.
Is the UK really too small to stand alone?
Again yes of course bieng part of a big group has its advantages, but alone the UK still has a larger economy than many other countries who are doing deal with the EU and US,The EU has negotiated a trade deals with Korea and Cananda and I believe both have smaller economies and populations than the UK.
At the moment I’m sat in a hotel in Italy watching France 24 talking about how Brexit effects ROI farmers, they say that we are the biggest market for thier beef, worth €1bn per year, trying to sell that elsewhere in the EU will collapse not just the Irish beef market, but the rest of the EU beef market and this is a pro EU channel.
I’ve also met several other people from Germany to Portugal who are worried about the effects of a no deal on thier sectors of the economy, I think it will be bad for the UK, but it will also be bad for many in the EU and for both us and the rest of the EU should avoided at all costs, even if that means a delay or no Brexit, although I’m not sure if more months and years of uncertainty would be good for business.
As I’ve tried to explain to many people who believe this is some binary choice, I’m pro European, I often feel more at home in mainland Europe than in the UK, but I’m not pro EU, I used to be, but in recent years I’ve come to believe that the EU is working to the detriment of the average European worker, but with vested interests so ingrained, at least before 2016, reform was an impossible dream.
Well, actually, the UK is too small to push its weight about the way it used to. There’s a brutal reality check heading Britain’s way.
Two World War wins, a former empire and a World Cup win for England doesn’t carry that much clout these days.
Have I accidentally wandered into the Daily Mail comments section?
dexxyy:
muckles:
Franglais:
Hold up!
I wasnt commenting exclusively on any UK/USA or any other deal, done or otherwise. I was more responding to Adam saying that he apparently didnt care about animal welfare so long as food was edible.
I was saying that there are a lot of issues concerning food, safety, and trade that all need to be addressed*.
And I agree with you that having too free a market is the “race to the bottom”, if thats what youre saying.
That is one of the reasons I reckon we should stay in the EU.
As an independent single Nation the UK is too small to stand alone (I can hear the wind-up gramophone records of Vera Lynn being cranked up!) As part of the EU we can achieve more against the USA, and in the future maybe the Chinese markets.
Free trade deals arent all the same after all: they are all tailor made. None are truly 100% anything goes deals. As part of a bigger block we can do more than we can alone. We have more clout as part of a bigger group. That isnt talking ourselves down, it`s being realistic.euronews.com/2019/03/02/us- … trade-deal
He is right that we shouldnt let false health scares stand in our way to progress. BUT we should be very concerned over the excess use of antibiotics, and I reckon animal welfare too. To compete with cheaper imports, if allowed, wont our farmers need to employ more radical stock densities, in the name of efficiency?
Do you trust the word of the current minister M. Gove that out standards wont be dropped? I dont: political promises have no worth in my book.(*I missed out the issues of big agrochemical companies “owning” the genetic sequence of seeds they sell so that farmers cannot even produce their own seed in later years.)
Sorry miss-understood your post, but stand by what I wrote.
I personally think we should be worried about the wishes and activities of large agri groups.
However even though I think we’ve been lead down the Brexit route from a referendum called on a false premises of trying to hold the Conservative party together to having no plan and now wheeling and dealing by MP’s with thier own agendas, the idea we’re better off being in a large organisation like the EU I’m not so sure about, yes of course in theory the large organisation should be able yo call the shots, but do they have our best interests at heart when they do these deals?
I believe a recent ECJ ruling has made this worse, from what I understand it stops individual EU countries blocking trade deals, in theory this means an electorate might vote in a national goverment on a manifesto that they’ll protect some industry or other sector, but that democratically elected goverment can be over ruled by the EU in the name of a free trade deal.
Is the UK really too small to stand alone?
Again yes of course bieng part of a big group has its advantages, but alone the UK still has a larger economy than many other countries who are doing deal with the EU and US,The EU has negotiated a trade deals with Korea and Cananda and I believe both have smaller economies and populations than the UK.
At the moment I’m sat in a hotel in Italy watching France 24 talking about how Brexit effects ROI farmers, they say that we are the biggest market for thier beef, worth €1bn per year, trying to sell that elsewhere in the EU will collapse not just the Irish beef market, but the rest of the EU beef market and this is a pro EU channel.
I’ve also met several other people from Germany to Portugal who are worried about the effects of a no deal on thier sectors of the economy, I think it will be bad for the UK, but it will also be bad for many in the EU and for both us and the rest of the EU should avoided at all costs, even if that means a delay or no Brexit, although I’m not sure if more months and years of uncertainty would be good for business.
As I’ve tried to explain to many people who believe this is some binary choice, I’m pro European, I often feel more at home in mainland Europe than in the UK, but I’m not pro EU, I used to be, but in recent years I’ve come to believe that the EU is working to the detriment of the average European worker, but with vested interests so ingrained, at least before 2016, reform was an impossible dream.
Well, actually, the UK is too small to push its weight about the way it used to. There’s a brutal reality check heading Britain’s way.
Two World War wins, a former empire and a World Cup win for England doesn’t carry that much clout these days.
Have I accidentally wandered into the Daily Mail comments section?
Who said anything about pushing its weight as it was in the days of Empire? I was just making a comparison to the economic size of the U.K. Compared to other countries who have done trade deals with the EU.
Maybe like most Daily Mail readers you should learn to read the entire thing instead of grabbing a headline to reinforce you already prejudiced views?
muckles:
dexxyy:
muckles:
Franglais:
Hold up!
I wasnt commenting exclusively on any UK/USA or any other deal, done or otherwise. I was more responding to Adam saying that he apparently didnt care about animal welfare so long as food was edible.
I was saying that there are a lot of issues concerning food, safety, and trade that all need to be addressed*.
And I agree with you that having too free a market is the “race to the bottom”, if thats what youre saying.
That is one of the reasons I reckon we should stay in the EU.
As an independent single Nation the UK is too small to stand alone (I can hear the wind-up gramophone records of Vera Lynn being cranked up!) As part of the EU we can achieve more against the USA, and in the future maybe the Chinese markets.
Free trade deals arent all the same after all: they are all tailor made. None are truly 100% anything goes deals. As part of a bigger block we can do more than we can alone. We have more clout as part of a bigger group. That isnt talking ourselves down, it`s being realistic.euronews.com/2019/03/02/us- … trade-deal
He is right that we shouldnt let false health scares stand in our way to progress. BUT we should be very concerned over the excess use of antibiotics, and I reckon animal welfare too. To compete with cheaper imports, if allowed, wont our farmers need to employ more radical stock densities, in the name of efficiency?
Do you trust the word of the current minister M. Gove that out standards wont be dropped? I dont: political promises have no worth in my book.(*I missed out the issues of big agrochemical companies “owning” the genetic sequence of seeds they sell so that farmers cannot even produce their own seed in later years.)
Sorry miss-understood your post, but stand by what I wrote.
I personally think we should be worried about the wishes and activities of large agri groups.
However even though I think we’ve been lead down the Brexit route from a referendum called on a false premises of trying to hold the Conservative party together to having no plan and now wheeling and dealing by MP’s with thier own agendas, the idea we’re better off being in a large organisation like the EU I’m not so sure about, yes of course in theory the large organisation should be able yo call the shots, but do they have our best interests at heart when they do these deals?
I believe a recent ECJ ruling has made this worse, from what I understand it stops individual EU countries blocking trade deals, in theory this means an electorate might vote in a national goverment on a manifesto that they’ll protect some industry or other sector, but that democratically elected goverment can be over ruled by the EU in the name of a free trade deal.
Is the UK really too small to stand alone?
Again yes of course bieng part of a big group has its advantages, but alone the UK still has a larger economy than many other countries who are doing deal with the EU and US,The EU has negotiated a trade deals with Korea and Cananda and I believe both have smaller economies and populations than the UK.
At the moment I’m sat in a hotel in Italy watching France 24 talking about how Brexit effects ROI farmers, they say that we are the biggest market for thier beef, worth €1bn per year, trying to sell that elsewhere in the EU will collapse not just the Irish beef market, but the rest of the EU beef market and this is a pro EU channel.
I’ve also met several other people from Germany to Portugal who are worried about the effects of a no deal on thier sectors of the economy, I think it will be bad for the UK, but it will also be bad for many in the EU and for both us and the rest of the EU should avoided at all costs, even if that means a delay or no Brexit, although I’m not sure if more months and years of uncertainty would be good for business.
As I’ve tried to explain to many people who believe this is some binary choice, I’m pro European, I often feel more at home in mainland Europe than in the UK, but I’m not pro EU, I used to be, but in recent years I’ve come to believe that the EU is working to the detriment of the average European worker, but with vested interests so ingrained, at least before 2016, reform was an impossible dream.
Well, actually, the UK is too small to push its weight about the way it used to. There’s a brutal reality check heading Britain’s way.
Two World War wins, a former empire and a World Cup win for England doesn’t carry that much clout these days.
Have I accidentally wandered into the Daily Mail comments section?Who said anything about pushing its weight as it was in the days of Empire? I was just making a comparison to the economic size of the U.K. Compared to other countries who have done trade deals with the EU. If you care to read the piece properly you will se I have said that bring in a large group has its advantages, you will also see I’m not a particular fan of the Brexit process to the reasons behind it.
Maybe like most Daily Mail readers you should learn to read the entire thing instead of grabbing a headline to reinforce you already prejudiced views?
muckles:
Sorry miss-understood your post, but stand by what I wrote.I personally think we should be worried about the wishes and activities of large agri groups.
However even though I think we’ve been lead down the Brexit route from a referendum called on a false premises of trying to hold the Conservative party together to having no plan and now wheeling and dealing by MP’s with thier own agendas, the idea we’re better off being in a large organisation like the EU I’m not so sure about, yes of course in theory the large organisation should be able yo call the shots, but do they have our best interests at heart when they do these deals?
I believe a recent ECJ ruling has made this worse, from what I understand it stops individual EU countries blocking trade deals, in theory this means an electorate might vote in a national goverment on a manifesto that they’ll protect some industry or other sector, but that democratically elected goverment can be over ruled by the EU in the name of a free trade deal.
Is the UK really too small to stand alone?
Again yes of course bieng part of a big group has its advantages, but alone the UK still has a larger economy than many other countries who are doing deal with the EU and US,The EU has negotiated a trade deals with Korea and Cananda and I believe both have smaller economies and populations than the UK.
At the moment I’m sat in a hotel in Italy watching France 24 talking about how Brexit effects ROI farmers, they say that we are the biggest market for thier beef, worth €1bn per year, trying to sell that elsewhere in the EU will collapse not just the Irish beef market, but the rest of the EU beef market and this is a pro EU channel.
I’ve also met several other people from Germany to Portugal who are worried about the effects of a no deal on thier sectors of the economy, I think it will be bad for the UK, but it will also be bad for many in the EU and for both us and the rest of the EU should avoided at all costs, even if that means a delay or no Brexit, although I’m not sure if more months and years of uncertainty would be good for business.
As I’ve tried to explain to many people who believe this is some binary choice, I’m pro European, I often feel more at home in mainland Europe than in the UK, but I’m not pro EU, I used to be, but in recent years I’ve come to believe that the EU is working to the detriment of the average European worker, but with vested interests so ingrained, at least before 2016, reform was an impossible dream.
Re “large agri groups” first.
Are you meaning the Monsanto type companies or the vocal protesters who seem to hold a lot of power in some sections of the media?
Whichever it is, I think both have too much power.
Large industrial agri companies are interested in money (they have to be by law, dont they?). Too many pressure groups rely on using emotion rather than facts to argue against them. And Governments have for too long followed the wishes of media tycoons, who had newspapers to influence public opinion and now have websites and lots of media know-how*. So, pandering to perceived light touch` wishes the industry is left alone too much. I strongly believe that more research should be done initially by Gov funding. What is discovered can be more easily checked, and researched, and then licenced to industry to fund future research. It is easier to give a direction that will benefit the greater population too, not just the richer section who can afford medicines*.
Getting back nearer the Brexit argument I see your point that the arguments arent binary, but the choice (unfortunately) is. Were In/Out. There is no third way on offer.
Except, maybe, stay in and alter the EU from within…?
If as you argue, I think, that the current set-up is too biased towards globalist big business, Id agree. But us leaving the EU under the heavy influence of the ERG mob, will see the EU continue going the same way, and us going even further and faster down the rampant free trade above all` route, and that will end badly for the majority of the population, as you rightly say. You can argue that a change in UK Gov could see us choose a different path, but although possible, I find that hard to see actually happening.
Smaller countries do have Trade Deals of course, but as part of larger groups, they may be better. How one could prove that is difficult, at the least though?
Having an existing deal (and it HAS done us well, if you look at the facts and ignore the rhetoric of much of the press) with our largest and nearest customers and suppliers is something we should only walk away from after careful consideration.
Picking up one other comment you made:
“watching France 24 talking about how Brexit … EU beef market and this is a pro EU channel.”
As an aside why pro EU? Are you saying it is biased that way? I certainly cant prove it isnt, but if most of stories, in your view, are pro EU then question why?
Maybe they are biased? Maybe they are giving a balanced view and the EU is, on balance rather better than you may be currently thinking?
I mean, if the stories are true, and tend to favour the EU, then surely… 
I wonder though how any of us can figure out who is telling the truth.
Here is a link that I dont think has appeared on TNUK before. I emphasize that it isnt directed at you Muckles! Im just tacking it on this post for some of those looking over our shoulders. Happen it wont change many minds however. Just reinforces the smugness of those like me who KNOW we`re right** And knocks the chip off the shoulder of those who feel as if they are being “spoken down to”.
*There is a whole essay to explain and justify that, but I havent the time, youll be relieved to hear.
**Joke! I hope… how can any of us judge ourselves?
Franglais:
muckles:
Sorry miss-understood your post, but stand by what I wrote.I personally think we should be worried about the wishes and activities of large agri groups.
However even though I think we’ve been lead down the Brexit route from a referendum called on a false premises of trying to hold the Conservative party together to having no plan and now wheeling and dealing by MP’s with thier own agendas, the idea we’re better off being in a large organisation like the EU I’m not so sure about, yes of course in theory the large organisation should be able yo call the shots, but do they have our best interests at heart when they do these deals?
I believe a recent ECJ ruling has made this worse, from what I understand it stops individual EU countries blocking trade deals, in theory this means an electorate might vote in a national goverment on a manifesto that they’ll protect some industry or other sector, but that democratically elected goverment can be over ruled by the EU in the name of a free trade deal.
Is the UK really too small to stand alone?
Again yes of course bieng part of a big group has its advantages, but alone the UK still has a larger economy than many other countries who are doing deal with the EU and US,The EU has negotiated a trade deals with Korea and Cananda and I believe both have smaller economies and populations than the UK.
At the moment I’m sat in a hotel in Italy watching France 24 talking about how Brexit effects ROI farmers, they say that we are the biggest market for thier beef, worth €1bn per year, trying to sell that elsewhere in the EU will collapse not just the Irish beef market, but the rest of the EU beef market and this is a pro EU channel.
I’ve also met several other people from Germany to Portugal who are worried about the effects of a no deal on thier sectors of the economy, I think it will be bad for the UK, but it will also be bad for many in the EU and for both us and the rest of the EU should avoided at all costs, even if that means a delay or no Brexit, although I’m not sure if more months and years of uncertainty would be good for business.
As I’ve tried to explain to many people who believe this is some binary choice, I’m pro European, I often feel more at home in mainland Europe than in the UK, but I’m not pro EU, I used to be, but in recent years I’ve come to believe that the EU is working to the detriment of the average European worker, but with vested interests so ingrained, at least before 2016, reform was an impossible dream.
Re “large agri groups” first.
Are you meaning the Monsanto type companies or the vocal protesters who seem to hold a lot of power in some sections of the media?
Whichever it is, I think both have too much power.
Large industrial agri companies are interested in money (they have to be by law, dont they?). Too many pressure groups rely on using emotion rather than facts to argue against them. And Governments have for too long followed the wishes of media tycoons, who had newspapers to influence public opinion and now have websites and lots of media know-how*. So, pandering to perceivedlight touch` wishes the industry is left alone too much. I strongly believe that more research should be done initially by Gov funding. What is discovered can be more easily checked, and researched, and then licenced to industry to fund future research. It is easier to give a direction that will benefit the greater population too, not just the richer section who can afford medicines*.Getting back nearer the Brexit argument I see your point that the arguments aren
t binary, but the choice (unfortunately) is. Were In/Out. There is no third way on offer.
Except, maybe, stay in and alter the EU from within…?
If as you argue, I think, that the current set-up is too biased towards globalist big business, Id agree. But us leaving the EU under the heavy influence of the ERG mob, will see the EU continue going the same way, and us going even further and faster down the rampantfree trade above all` route, and that will end badly for the majority of the population, as you rightly say. You can argue that a change in UK Gov could see us choose a different path, but although possible, I find that hard to see actually happening.Smaller countries do have Trade Deals of course, but as part of larger groups, they may be better. How one could prove that is difficult, at the least though?
Having an existing deal (and it HAS done us well, if you look at the facts and ignore the rhetoric of much of the press) with our largest and nearest customers and suppliers is something we should only walk away from after careful consideration.Picking up one other comment you made:
“watching France 24 talking about how Brexit … EU beef market and this is a pro EU channel.”
As an aside why pro EU? Are you saying it is biased that way? I certainly cant prove it isnt, but if most of stories, in your view, are pro EU then question why?
Maybe they are biased? Maybe they are giving a balanced view and the EU is, on balance rather better than you may be currently thinking?
I mean, if the stories are true, and tend to favour the EU, then surely…I wonder though how any of us can figure out who is telling the truth.
Here is a link that I don
t think has appeared on TNUK before. I emphasize that it isnt directed at you Muckles! Im just tacking it on this post for some of those looking over our shoulders. Happen it wont change many minds however. Just reinforces the smugness of those like me who KNOW we`re right** And knocks the chip off the shoulder of those who feel as if they are being “spoken down to”.*There is a whole essay to explain and justify that, but I haven
t the time, youll be relieved to hear.
**Joke! I hope… how can any of us judge ourselves?
By large Agri groups I mean the likes of Monsanto, while I understand goverments knee jerk reaction to pressure from media with food scare stories, I feel these types of companies also have a gear deal of power to push their stuff through without the due checks and balances.
A large country, eg the USA or China or group like the EU obviously has a great deal of power from its size, a great trade made by the USA because of its economic clout, might benefit a banker in Wall Street or tech giant in Silicon Valley, but what about the factory worker in the Rust belt (wherever that is 
) they are normally sidelined and will be worse off because of this great trade deal, maybe if they had negotiators looking after just their area, despite thier smaller economic clout try might get a deal more in tune with their needs as opposed to those with the political clout in just Washington.
The only reason I said France 24 was pro EU was I saw a logo appear, with something like supported by or supporting the EU. Regardless of which side they are on, it was actually a good informative piece, which covered the problems faced by farmers on both sides of the border, as was the bit on the 16th week of yellow vest protests.
Finally yes Brexit was a binary choice, one I found very difficult to make with my loathing of those leading that campaign and the reasons for the referendum having little to do with the national interest and increasing skeptism over how the EU operates and it increasing remoteness from the people it is supposed to serve and lack of will for meaningful reform.
Personally we should have had a referendum for the Lisbon treaty, as some countries did, and in a democratic system all people of the EU should have had a say at the ballot box over the Lisbon treaty, it was not just a tidying up exercise, but a shift to a different relationship between the EU and the nation states in it.
As I understand it France 24 is financed by the French Gov, but has independent editorial control.
muckles:
dexxyy:
muckles:
Franglais:
Hold up!
I wasnt commenting exclusively on any UK/USA or any other deal, done or otherwise. I was more responding to Adam saying that he apparently didnt care about animal welfare so long as food was edible.
I was saying that there are a lot of issues concerning food, safety, and trade that all need to be addressed*.
And I agree with you that having too free a market is the “race to the bottom”, if thats what youre saying.
That is one of the reasons I reckon we should stay in the EU.
As an independent single Nation the UK is too small to stand alone (I can hear the wind-up gramophone records of Vera Lynn being cranked up!) As part of the EU we can achieve more against the USA, and in the future maybe the Chinese markets.
Free trade deals arent all the same after all: they are all tailor made. None are truly 100% anything goes deals. As part of a bigger block we can do more than we can alone. We have more clout as part of a bigger group. That isnt talking ourselves down, it`s being realistic.euronews.com/2019/03/02/us- … trade-deal
He is right that we shouldnt let false health scares stand in our way to progress. BUT we should be very concerned over the excess use of antibiotics, and I reckon animal welfare too. To compete with cheaper imports, if allowed, wont our farmers need to employ more radical stock densities, in the name of efficiency?
Do you trust the word of the current minister M. Gove that out standards wont be dropped? I dont: political promises have no worth in my book.(*I missed out the issues of big agrochemical companies “owning” the genetic sequence of seeds they sell so that farmers cannot even produce their own seed in later years.)
Sorry miss-understood your post, but stand by what I wrote.
I personally think we should be worried about the wishes and activities of large agri groups.
However even though I think we’ve been lead down the Brexit route from a referendum called on a false premises of trying to hold the Conservative party together to having no plan and now wheeling and dealing by MP’s with thier own agendas, the idea we’re better off being in a large organisation like the EU I’m not so sure about, yes of course in theory the large organisation should be able yo call the shots, but do they have our best interests at heart when they do these deals?
I believe a recent ECJ ruling has made this worse, from what I understand it stops individual EU countries blocking trade deals, in theory this means an electorate might vote in a national goverment on a manifesto that they’ll protect some industry or other sector, but that democratically elected goverment can be over ruled by the EU in the name of a free trade deal.
Is the UK really too small to stand alone?
Again yes of course bieng part of a big group has its advantages, but alone the UK still has a larger economy than many other countries who are doing deal with the EU and US,The EU has negotiated a trade deals with Korea and Cananda and I believe both have smaller economies and populations than the UK.
At the moment I’m sat in a hotel in Italy watching France 24 talking about how Brexit effects ROI farmers, they say that we are the biggest market for thier beef, worth €1bn per year, trying to sell that elsewhere in the EU will collapse not just the Irish beef market, but the rest of the EU beef market and this is a pro EU channel.
I’ve also met several other people from Germany to Portugal who are worried about the effects of a no deal on thier sectors of the economy, I think it will be bad for the UK, but it will also be bad for many in the EU and for both us and the rest of the EU should avoided at all costs, even if that means a delay or no Brexit, although I’m not sure if more months and years of uncertainty would be good for business.
As I’ve tried to explain to many people who believe this is some binary choice, I’m pro European, I often feel more at home in mainland Europe than in the UK, but I’m not pro EU, I used to be, but in recent years I’ve come to believe that the EU is working to the detriment of the average European worker, but with vested interests so ingrained, at least before 2016, reform was an impossible dream.
Well, actually, the UK is too small to push its weight about the way it used to. There’s a brutal reality check heading Britain’s way.
Two World War wins, a former empire and a World Cup win for England doesn’t carry that much clout these days.
Have I accidentally wandered into the Daily Mail comments section?Who said anything about pushing its weight as it was in the days of Empire? I was just making a comparison to the economic size of the U.K. Compared to other countries who have done trade deals with the EU.
Maybe like most Daily Mail readers you should learn to read the entire thing instead of grabbing a headline to reinforce you already prejudiced views?
It’s quite a leap to assume I read the arse paper that is printed with the DM logo every day.
I was just pointing out that Britain, despite the size of its economy, has not got the global power and influence it once had.
We don’t live in the 50’s any more (despite what the DM readers think) and voluntarily leaving one of the worlds biggest trading blocs is an act of self-harm beyond belief.
For all the faults (and I’ll admit there are many) of the EU, staying in is better than leaving.
@dexxy, so will you be moving to a mainland EU MAFIA controlled Country after 23300hrs on 29/03/2019 
Whether you think it is better to stop in a gangster run cartel than make your own COUNTRY GREAT again after years of having take orders from unelected, unnaccountable eurocrats means nothing, you had your chance to vote in ‘once in a generation’ referendum and the democratic result was that we are leaving and that cannot be changed whatever you believe, if you think it can be stopped then you are deluded, the corrupt metro political/wealthy elite who all want to stay in are scrambling and screaming and doing their utmost to keep us in because they are scared pooless of having to pull their greedy snouts out of the EU MAFIA’s gravy train 
Regards
Dave Penn;
davepenn54:
@dexxy, so will you be moving to a mainland EU MAFIA controlled Country after 23300hrs on 29/03/2019Regards
Dave Penn;
Regards to yourself Dave Penn.
This is a wind up right? I’ve just finished a 14 hour shift and am only half awake, but well done. You’ve expressed the gammon position perfectly. Copy and paste it into the DM comments and they’ll take you seriously.
@dexxy,Definitely not a wind up fella, why would I want to wind you up? And if my paragraph about the EU MAFIA winds you up I would suggest an Anger Management Programme is in order for you before your head explodes whilst driving a loaded HGV. I didn’t really expect anything else from a rabid remainiac like yerself though, deluded, sore, childish losers who appear to be brainwashed into believing the EU MAFIA is a DEMOCRACY. Whatever happens we leave the corrupt EU at 2300hrs on 29/03/2019 and you and your remainiac friends can shout, scream and cry as loud and for as long as you want because the decision to leave cannot be changed, unless you have a direct line to the Queen, what you lot don’t seem to understand is that our corrupt political elite do not have the actual final say, leaving the EU has been signed off by the Queen you will only change that decision if you can convince her to retract her authorisation and signature which would not just cause a massive constitutional crisis but would mean she would be abdicating her throne and the House of Windsor to the unelected, unnaccountable group of EU GANGSTERS 
I don’t think she is going to do that eh?
Just a bit of final advice, before taking on somebody on SM like you have done it’s probably much better if you know what the hell you are talking about because you obviously don’t, oh and BTW, I don’t read any of the DISHONEST MSM and haven’t done for over 30 years, I’m not taken in by their lies and fabrications unlike some people 
Regards
Dave Penn;
PS I didn’t see the last bit of your post, you do realise that the term ‘Gammon’ in reference to any white person who voted to leave the EU MAFIA is regarded as racist and discriminatory so I’m going to play my ‘White Privilege’ card and demand a written apology, if not I will be reporting your racist outburst, firstly to admin on here and then to the ‘Thought Police’ I hope you take this seriously because I refuse to be racially abused by you 
just because I voted to leave the EU MAFIA 
Waiting in anticipation
Regards
Dave Penn;
davepenn54:
@dexxy,Definitely not a wind up fella, why would I want to wind you up? And if my paragraph about the EU MAFIA winds you up I would suggest an Anger Management Programme is in order for you before your head explodes whilst driving a loaded HGV. I didn’t really expect anything else from a rabid remainiac like yerself though, deluded, sore, childish losers who appear to be brainwashed into believing the EU MAFIA is a DEMOCRACY. Whatever happens we leave the corrupt EU at 2300hrs on 29/03/2019 and you and your remainiac friends can shout, scream and cry as loud and for as long as you want because the decision to leave cannot be changed, unless you have a direct line to the Queen, what you lot don’t seem to understand is that our corrupt political elite do not have the actual final say, leaving the EU has been signed off by the Queen you will only change that decision if you can convince her to retract her authorisation and signature which would not just cause a massive constitutional crisis but would mean she would be abdicating her throne and the House of Windsor to the unelected, unnaccountable group of EU GANGSTERSJust a bit of final advice, before taking on somebody on SM like you have done it’s probably much better if you know what the hell you are talking about because you obviously don’t, oh and BTW, I don’t read any of the DISHONEST MSM and haven’t done for over 30 years, I’m not taken in by their lies and fabrications unlike some people
Regards
Dave Penn;PS I didn’t see the last bit of your post, you do realise that the term ‘Gammon’ in reference to any white person who voted to leave the EU MAFIA is regarded as racist and discriminatory so I’m going to play my ‘White Privilege’ card and demand a written apology, if not I will be reporting your racist outburst, firstly to admin on here and then to the ‘Thought Police’ I hope you take this seriously because I refuse to be racially abused by you
Waiting in anticipationegards
Dave Penn;
Regards again Dave.
I last posted after a long shift. Been awake 30 min now so still not fully alert . . . but . . . Phew, that was quite a rant. You sure it’s me that needs the anger management? There’s an awful lot of shouting going on there Dave.
Where do you get the idea that I’m a ‘rabid remainiac’?, or indeed a ‘rabid’ anything? There was a vote, the People cast their vote, and there was a result.
I’ll go with that. I wasn’t particularly happy with the result but that’s democracy (Lower case Dave, no need to shout).
You’ve got me with the constitutional thing though, I’d no idea the Queen could over-rule Parliament and have the final say. Every day a school day eh?
As for ‘gammon’ being racist, since when have retired lorry drivers from Yorkshire been a different ‘race’?
Lighten up Dave, one way or another Brexit’s going to happen. Then we can all get back to getting on with each other, as we used to