robert1952:
The NGC had a choice of 2 ■■■■■■■ NTC and 2 Fuller 'boxes. It needs to be remembered that the NGC didn’t need all sorts of other variations: it was built as an export Euro-spec premium tractor. Everything else was covered by other ERF models: 6x4 units, domestic 32-tonners, heavy-haulage machines etc. You could have these other units with metal MW cabs if you wanted. You could have a B-series, A-series,or M-type (MW-cab). And you could choose an NH250 or even a Gardner if you wanted. So the NGC remained to the end a pretty pure beast, it seems. Almost all the variations were retro-fitted by customers who could have had chosen one of those alternative models. Just because Phil Horridge put a 350 ■■■■■■■■ 13-speed Fuller and coach-diff in his NGC doesn’t necessarily mean it should have been in ERF’s catalogue! Robert
All of that premise obviously collapses when you factor in the fact that it alienates any customer looking for a ‘UK/Euro capable’ ( as opposed to dodgy muddle headed Euro spec ) premium steel cab tractor that makes best use of the torque characteristics of the full ■■■■■■■ range.In which case as I’ve said if anyone wanted even a 335,let alone top range ■■■■■■■ ( preferably NTA ),with decent gearing in the right vehicle ( NGC ) together with the option of 4x2 or 6x4,ERF wasn’t prepared to offer it.IE the demands of the Phil Horridges of this world were exactly the type of customers that the NGC and more importantly ERF needed to meet.The result being that,unlike him,most of them took the easier and more sensible option of walking away from ERF whether new or used and probably to their nearest Euro/Scandinavian import dealer.
Carryfast:
IE unless I’ve read it wrong you said ‘‘why did they not just drop the top engine in it’’ referring to the 370.
…blah…
You have read it wrong, mainly through understanding less than half of it. I was referring to the engine mentioned in the CM article- remember that article? The one I introduced as a preface for the question you quote?
It’s like hammering a wooden nail into a steel plank.
As I read it you were talking about the ‘range’ of engines referred to by ERF in its advertising campaign ?.Of which ERF chose only 2 for the NGC 290 and 335 NTC.The ‘range’ referred to,including the 370.The 370 being part of NTA range. In which case we’re actually in agreement that the NGC ‘should’ have had the whole range from NTC to NTA.However we’re obviously not in agreement about the fact that we need to gear the thing properly when we’ve fitted whichever of them.
ERF-Continental:
On Carryfast’s question I point out that when you imagine a diabolo, the upper (funnel) part is the group of Suppliers (■■■■■■■■ Gardner etc, Fuller, David Brown etc, Kirkstall, Hendrickson etc) together with ERF, pushing and pulling for technical solutions in which the suppliers had a major goal to push their new/modified products to gain figures on sold numbers.
ERF did quite well to spec (with some options) the NGC next to the other range-participants, three-, four-axles etc. The lower part of the diabolo is the group of importers/distributors and the market represented by the interested transport companies/owner-drivers. We ‘only’ speak
of gross 100 chassis produced/sold (which is quite good for that time-frame) but standard that didn’t suit all end-users on the continent, that’s why earlier remarks were made with the trivial
and controversial outcome: low(er) fuel-consumption versus high(er) speed, what your business requires and then discussions on (excluded) non-spec-warranties could be expected.
On the type-approval the importer/distributor should offer each modification (as ERF Ltd. didn’t arrange with possibly very good reasons) to the road-inspection (government-controlled) and for their customers the importer/distributor often applied the former approval (PVA~COC) to serve the customer. ERF was apparently not very keen or happy with that way of working but sales preveals as often.
Let’s get this right.ERF couldn’t provide the options that the customer was asking for because local market type approval restrictions wouldn’t allow it ?.However those options could be provided by local after market suppliers who could get round the type approval restrictions in question ?.No surprise that wasn’t a sustainable business model for ERF and seems to match what I’ve said previously regards type approval issues being a major factor in Brit exporters like ERF having to walk away from that market.Not to mention silly local market demands,regards gearing at least,having made the product effectively useless for sale in the domestic market.Not helped by ERF’s inflexible component options policy in which the thing had to be built to the wrong spec first then changed by the dealer after market.
robert1952:
It has to be remembered that the NGC didn’t need all sorts of variations: it was built as an export Euro-spec premium tractor. Everything else was covered by other ERF models: 6x4 units, domestic 32-tonners, heavy-haulage machines etc. You could have these other units with metal MW cabs if you wanted. And you could choose an NH250 or even a Gardner if you wanted. So the NGC remained to the end a pretty pure beast, it seems. Almost all the variations were retro-fitted by customers who could have had chosen one of those alternative models. Just because Phil Horridge put a 350 ■■■■■■■■ 13-speed Fuller and coach-diff in his NGC doesn’t necessarily mean it should have been in ERF’s catalogue! Robert
EXACTLY!!!
On Carryfast’s question I point out that when you imagine a diabolo, the upper (funnel) part is the group of Suppliers (■■■■■■■■ Gardner etc, Fuller, David Brown etc, Kirkstall, Hendrickson etc) together with ERF, pushing and pulling for technical solutions in which the suppliers had a major goal to push their new/modified products to gain figures on sold numbers.
ERF did quite well to spec (with some options) the NGC next to the other range-participants, three-, four-axles etc. The lower part of the diabolo is the group of importers/distributors and the market represented by the interested transport companies/owner-drivers. We ‘only’ speak
of gross 100 chassis produced/sold (which is quite good for that time-frame) but standard that didn’t suit all end-users on the continent, that’s why earlier remarks were made with the trivial
and controversial outcome: low(er) fuel-consumption versus high(er) speed, what your business requires and then discussions on (excluded) non-spec-warranties could be expected.
On the type-approval the importer/distributor should offer each modification (as ERF Ltd. didn’t arrange with possibly very good reasons) to the road-inspection (government-controlled) and for their customers the importer/distributor often applied the former approval (PVA~COC) to serve the customer. ERF was apparently not very keen or happy with that way of working but sales preveals as often.
To ERF: I assume (and highly respect your knowledge) you speak for Great-Britain when it comes to returns to vendor/supplier in case after the NGC left for the continent changes were made.
Remember that CDB was by far the largest in re-assembling and selling ■■■■■■■■ Fuller and Hendrickson with regard to also White/Autocar with > 1.000 chassis (tippers,mixers,tractors) exported towards the Middle East. They didn’t return such major components to ERF at all.
I hear ERF-sales shout to grant a nice discount and keep those components on the continent!!!
That’s an interesting post! It seems that CDB had a fair bit of autonomy when it came to meeting the needs of customers. One example of this would be that despite ERF’s reluctance to supply 335-powered NGCs with 13-sp Fullers, CDB was able to supply the only two I know about (though the De Meulemeester unit may have been retrofitted with it at a later date by the haulier). I would have thought, too, that it is highly likely that CDB carried out the conversion of the Eyckmans NGC to 6x4, given that they would have had new and second-hand Hendrickson equipment on White chassis to hand. Robert
robert1952:
The NGC had a choice of 2 ■■■■■■■ NTC and 2 Fuller 'boxes. It needs to be remembered that the NGC didn’t need all sorts of other variations: it was built as an export Euro-spec premium tractor. Everything else was covered by other ERF models: 6x4 units, domestic 32-tonners, heavy-haulage machines etc. You could have these other units with metal MW cabs if you wanted. You could have a B-series, A-series,or M-type (MW-cab). And you could choose an NH250 or even a Gardner if you wanted. So the NGC remained to the end a pretty pure beast, it seems. Almost all the variations were retro-fitted by customers who could have had chosen one of those alternative models. Just because Phil Horridge put a 350 ■■■■■■■■ 13-speed Fuller and coach-diff in his NGC doesn’t necessarily mean it should have been in ERF’s catalogue! Robert
All of that premise obviously collapses when you factor in the fact that it alienates any customer looking for a ‘UK/Euro capable’ ( as opposed to dodgy muddle headed Euro spec ) premium steel cab tractor that makes best use of the torque characteristics of the full ■■■■■■■ range.In which case as I’ve said if anyone wanted even a 335,let alone top range ■■■■■■■ ( preferably NTA ),with decent gearing in the right vehicle ( NGC ) together with the option of 4x2 or 6x4,ERF wasn’t prepared to offer it.IE the demands of the Phil Horridges of this world were exactly the type of customers that the NGC and more importantly ERF needed to meet.The result being that,unlike him,most of them took the easier and more sensible option of walking away from ERF whether new or used and probably to their nearest Euro/Scandinavian import dealer.
I always thought it was a matter of ‘walking to’ not ‘walking away’! If tomorrow morning I wanted a family estate car with a straight-six 3-litre diesel and a manual 6-sp 'box I wouldn’t go to my local Jaguar dealer because they don’t make 'em: I’d go to BMW because they do! Robert
robert1952:
The NGC had a choice of 2 ■■■■■■■ NTC and 2 Fuller 'boxes. It needs to be remembered that the NGC didn’t need all sorts of other variations: it was built as an export Euro-spec premium tractor. Everything else was covered by other ERF models: 6x4 units, domestic 32-tonners, heavy-haulage machines etc. You could have these other units with metal MW cabs if you wanted. You could have a B-series, A-series,or M-type (MW-cab). And you could choose an NH250 or even a Gardner if you wanted. So the NGC remained to the end a pretty pure beast, it seems. Almost all the variations were retro-fitted by customers who could have had chosen one of those alternative models. Just because Phil Horridge put a 350 ■■■■■■■■ 13-speed Fuller and coach-diff in his NGC doesn’t necessarily mean it should have been in ERF’s catalogue! Robert
All of that premise obviously collapses when you factor in the fact that it alienates any customer looking for a ‘UK/Euro capable’ ( as opposed to dodgy muddle headed Euro spec ) premium steel cab tractor that makes best use of the torque characteristics of the full ■■■■■■■ range.In which case as I’ve said if anyone wanted even a 335,let alone top range ■■■■■■■ ( preferably NTA ),with decent gearing in the right vehicle ( NGC ) together with the option of 4x2 or 6x4,ERF wasn’t prepared to offer it.IE the demands of the Phil Horridges of this world were exactly the type of customers that the NGC and more importantly ERF needed to meet.The result being that,unlike him,most of them took the easier and more sensible option of walking away from ERF whether new or used and probably to their nearest Euro/Scandinavian import dealer.
I always thought it was a matter of ‘walking to’ not ‘walking away’! If tomorrow morning I wanted a family estate car with a straight-six 3-litre diesel and a manual 6-sp 'box I wouldn’t go to my local Jaguar dealer because they don’t make 'em: I’d go to BMW because they do! Robert
hiya. around this time were talking about ERF tried to standardise there lorries Albert Dale (EX European owner) who had always run ERFs wanted a LHD unit with a 350 ■■■■■■■ engine 13 speed fuller diff locks and a centre lift axle… ERF refused to built to his speck…hello MAN 362…to which Albert was very pleased with. Berresfords was also impressed . Berresfords had the smaller engine which Dave Scarlet had the first one B ■■? MRF and others followed…
John
robert1952:
The NGC had a choice of 2 ■■■■■■■ NTC and 2 Fuller 'boxes. It needs to be remembered that the NGC didn’t need all sorts of other variations: it was built as an export Euro-spec premium tractor. Everything else was covered by other ERF models: 6x4 units, domestic 32-tonners, heavy-haulage machines etc. You could have these other units with metal MW cabs if you wanted. You could have a B-series, A-series,or M-type (MW-cab). And you could choose an NH250 or even a Gardner if you wanted. So the NGC remained to the end a pretty pure beast, it seems. Almost all the variations were retro-fitted by customers who could have had chosen one of those alternative models. Just because Phil Horridge put a 350 ■■■■■■■■ 13-speed Fuller and coach-diff in his NGC doesn’t necessarily mean it should have been in ERF’s catalogue! Robert
All of that premise obviously collapses when you factor in the fact that it alienates any customer looking for a ‘UK/Euro capable’ ( as opposed to dodgy muddle headed Euro spec ) premium steel cab tractor that makes best use of the torque characteristics of the full ■■■■■■■ range.In which case as I’ve said if anyone wanted even a 335,let alone top range ■■■■■■■ ( preferably NTA ),with decent gearing in the right vehicle ( NGC ) together with the option of 4x2 or 6x4,ERF wasn’t prepared to offer it.IE the demands of the Phil Horridges of this world were exactly the type of customers that the NGC and more importantly ERF needed to meet.The result being that,unlike him,most of them took the easier and more sensible option of walking away from ERF whether new or used and probably to their nearest Euro/Scandinavian import dealer.
I always thought it was a matter of ‘walking to’ not ‘walking away’! If tomorrow morning I wanted a family estate car with a straight-six 3-litre diesel and a manual 6-sp 'box I wouldn’t go to my local Jaguar dealer because they don’t make 'em: I’d go to BMW because they do! Robert
hiya. around this time were talking about ERF tried to standardise there lorries Albert Dale (EX European owner) who had always run ERFs wanted a LHD unit with a 350 ■■■■■■■ engine 13 speed fuller diff locks and a centre lift axle… ERF refused to built to his speck…hello MAN 362…to which Albert was very pleased with. Berresfords was also impressed . Berresfords had the smaller engine which Dave Scarlet had the first one B ■■? MRF and others followed…
John
Hello John! Albert didn’t sell his NGC until 1980, by which time he could’ve had a LHD B-series unit with 350, diff-locks (standard on NGCs by the way) and a centre lift axle (like the one pictured below). I reckon he just fancied a foreigner! Robert
tiptop495:
Hey, It had been possible to drive the test twice with the Daf, once as an 9 speed without using the splitter
and then as an 13 speed. .
I am really interested in this idea, Eric. I’ve always known that the 13-speed Fuller was just a 9-speed Fuller with overdrive. Was it really tested as a 9-sp with a 13-sp box? You could surely only test certain 13-sp set-ups as 9-sp 'boxes. Did that mean that you used low-range + high range using only upper-split gears, or low-range + lower split gears? This would surely depend upon whether it was an overdrive-top or direct-top 'box. I suppose it was easy with the overdrive 'boxes but what about the under-drive 'boxes (or is that another red-herring? Robert
A mate of mine sent me this pic off the internet this evening. Look at the ride-height and other dimensions. I remember many years ago in the early '70s my uncle returning from a trip to America and claiming that Yankee hardware was so much bigger than ours. I tried to explain that this wasn’t true. This picture easily demonstrates my point! Robert
GEH 513N is a good example of an NGC that received retrospective treatment: ie it got a newer engine, gearbox and suspension from a Belgian donor vehicle. Robert
tiptop495:
Hey, It had been possible to drive the test twice with the Daf, once as an 9 speed without using the splitter
and then as an 13 speed. .
I am really interested in this idea, Eric. I’ve always known that the 13-speed Fuller was just a 9-speed Fuller with overdrive. Was it really tested as a 9-sp with a 13-sp box? You could surely only test certain 13-sp set-ups as 9-sp 'boxes. Did that mean that you used low-range + high range using only upper-split gears, or low-range + lower split gears? This would surely depend upon whether it was an overdrive-top or direct-top 'box. I suppose it was easy with the overdrive 'boxes but what about the under-drive 'boxes (or is that another red-herring? Robert
Hey Robert, yes a 13 is a 9 speed with overdrive or reduction as the RTxx13. Of course it must be done with overdrive boxes, so that you can look what is the difference between direct and
overdrive ones for fuel economy and if it was with a spitter better or not. With a Fuller or for exemple in that time Volvo R and SR 61/62 boxes it would have been possible too. But with Fuller everything would has been possible because of all choices RT/RTO ■■09 and ■■13. which means with the Fullers you can do it in the two ways as an 9 speed overdrive or direct drive, range change and only the overdrives or only the directs. which with the Volvo can’t be done because of lack of an 8 speed overdrive.
Tests are always difficult to compare, that’s why today test are often done with more testers and changing them from vehicle to vehicle. En using a separate reference truck too.
If you do a test, on the motorways mostly easy (but today if there is an overtaking ban as we hier have today, on all
only two section morterays or dualcarriage ways). So wonderfull with no traffic to sit behind a car and caravan or car with horsecard at about 80kph.
But on route nationals one has two traffic lights and the other can have 5 or 6 maybe !!! so more stop starts what means mor fuel and slower at the end.
In the seventhies it was not so common to get a demotruck, first buy it and test it then policy, but at that time the boss where Father and I worked said, if you want to sell I need one for a week to give it a try. And because he bought more as one, and it were difficult times in the seventies and at lot of new marques tryed our country, with a best seller as the Transcontinental, but thats an other story and one which Scania never will forget and was not happy with it. So, so far,he put it a week on Luxembourg steel work with three different drivers,
three good ones but a heavy foot driver, a normal crareful and a lazy one which only changed gears as the engine felt nearly dead.
But so far I know was never done pitty, we must has been testers in those days Robert.
I think we had a good circuit to do it, and even you could test suspension comfort on the Antwerp Liège motorway.
It would has been a very good thing for Fuller to show its multifunctional choise of non syncro good changing gearboxes.
Because it was the time older drivers came from non good changing and bad non syncro boxes in a world of good syncro’s, so it they heart Fuller is non syncro they were unhappy. But if you was careful with syncro’s they made a good
sence here especially the Volvo which was as a car to drive.
robert1952:
GEH 513N is a good example of an NGC that received retrospective treatment: ie it got a newer engine, gearbox and suspension from a Belgian donor vehicle. Robert
0
Hey, nice looking tractor for its days, Always seen here as a copy of Scania. Only to short wheelbase, but what did they in England for axle weight with such short wheelbases and only 10 ton drive axles ■■?
Counties as Holland and Germany went the way of long wheelbases for the only 10 ton driveaxle, and other the 6x2 version.
Looks like it has just been freshly sprayed here after being bought from Beresford/Albert Dale.
Intresting sign writing along the front grill ! Does anyone know which garage this is ? Looks like a
ERF one in Leicestershire ■■
tiptop495:
Hey, It had been possible to drive the test twice with the Daf, once as an 9 speed without using the splitter
and then as an 13 speed. .
I am really interested in this idea, Eric. I’ve always known that the 13-speed Fuller was just a 9-speed Fuller with overdrive. Was it really tested as a 9-sp with a 13-sp box? You could surely only test certain 13-sp set-ups as 9-sp 'boxes. Did that mean that you used low-range + high range using only upper-split gears, or low-range + lower split gears? This would surely depend upon whether it was an overdrive-top or direct-top 'box. I suppose it was easy with the overdrive 'boxes but what about the under-drive 'boxes (or is that another red-herring? Robert
Hey Robert, yes a 13 is a 9 speed with overdrive or reduction as the RTxx13. Of course it must be done with overdrive boxes, so that you can look what is the difference between direct and
overdrive ones for fuel economy and if it was with a spitter better or not. With a Fuller or for exemple in that time Volvo R and SR 61/62 boxes it would have been possible too. But with Fuller everything would has been possible because of all choices RT/RTO ■■09 and ■■13. which means with the Fullers you can do it in the two ways as an 9 speed overdrive or direct drive, range change and only the overdrives or only the directs. which with the Volvo can’t be done because of lack of an 8 speed overdrive.
Tests are always difficult to compare, that’s why today test are often done with more testers and changing them from vehicle to vehicle. En using a separate reference truck too.
If you do a test, on the motorways mostly easy (but today if there is an overtaking ban as we hier have today, on all
only two section morterays or dualcarriage ways). So wonderfull with no traffic to sit behind a car and caravan or car with horsecard at about 80kph.
But on route nationals one has two traffic lights and the other can have 5 or 6 maybe !!! so more stop starts what means mor fuel and slower at the end.
In the seventhies it was not so common to get a demotruck, first buy it and test it then policy, but at that time the boss where Father and I worked said, if you want to sell I need one for a week to give it a try. And because he bought more as one, and it were difficult times in the seventies and at lot of new marques tryed our country, with a best seller as the Transcontinental, but thats an other story and one which Scania never will forget and was not happy with it. So, so far,he put it a week on Luxembourg steel work with three different drivers,
three good ones but a heavy foot driver, a normal crareful and a lazy one which only changed gears as the engine felt nearly dead.
But so far I know was never done pitty, we must has been testers in those days Robert.
I think we had a good circuit to do it, and even you could test suspension comfort on the Antwerp Liège motorway.
It would has been a very good thing for Fuller to show its multifunctional choise of non syncro good changing gearboxes.
Because it was the time older drivers came from non good changing and bad non syncro boxes in a world of good syncro’s, so it they heart Fuller is non syncro they were unhappy. But if you was careful with syncro’s they made a good
sence here especially the Volvo which was as a car to drive.
Eric,
Many thanks for that informative reply, Eric! Robert
robert1952:
GEH 513N is a good example of an NGC that received retrospective treatment: ie it got a newer engine, gearbox and suspension from a Belgian donor vehicle. Robert
0
Hey, nice looking tractor for its days, Always seen here as a copy of Scania. Only to short wheelbase, but what did they in England for axle weight with such short wheelbases and only 10 ton drive axles ■■?
Counties as Holland and Germany went the way of long wheelbases for the only 10 ton driveaxle, and other the 6x2 version.
Eric,
The NGC had a 3.4m wheelbase and a 13-ton drive axle. Robert
DEANB:
Looks like it has just been freshly sprayed here after being bought from Beresford/Albert Dale.
Intresting sign writing along the front grill ! Does anyone know which garage this is ? Looks like a
ERF one in Leicestershire ■■
0
The pic is on page 9 of Book 1. It was bought from Beech’s Garage in Stoke but as you say, the location looks like a Leics ERF one. Robert
robert1952:
GEH 513N is a good example of an NGC that received retrospective treatment: ie it got a newer engine, gearbox and suspension from a Belgian donor vehicle. Robert
0
Hey, nice looking tractor for its days, Always seen here as a copy of Scania. Only to short wheelbase, but what did they in England for axle weight with such short wheelbases and only 10 ton drive axles ■■?
Counties as Holland and Germany went the way of long wheelbases for the only 10 ton driveaxle, and other the 6x2 version.
Eric,
The NGC had a 3.4m wheelbase and a 13-ton drive axle. Robert
Hey Robert, thought it looked shorter Thanks, oh my eyes.
DEANB:
Looks like it has just been freshly sprayed here after being bought from Beresford/Albert Dale.
Intresting sign writing along the front grill ! Does anyone know which garage this is ? Looks like a
ERF one in Leicestershire ■■
0
The pic is on page 9 of Book 1. It was bought from Beech’s Garage in Stoke but as you say, the location looks like a Leics ERF one. Robert
This would be taken at Cossington commercials in Leicestershire.(could have been in for 2yr tacho check). Only about 4 miles from John’s yard.
This would have been its second respray since John owned GEH. The first was a lighter blue.
I vaguely remember seeing 7mw cabs lined up behind the garage which could be seen through the trees as you passed Cossington commercials.
Perhaps these were the source for some of the conversions. Colin.
In which case we’re actually in agreement that the NGC ‘should’ have had the whole range from NTC to NTA.However we’re obviously not in agreement about the fact that we need to gear the thing properly when we’ve fitted whichever of them.
Robert
