Dangerous goods advice- UK regs and ADR

[dieseldave]

R.D:
thanks dave i was having a blonde moment when i wrote that post yesterday i was getting confused with another issue i had at work involving a packing group 2 consignment a month ago.doh!! i remember the 333kg threshold from that,on that occasion i was right,yesterday i had my head up my ■■■ i know that its not my responsibility as a driver to know such things,but like you say,some people expect you to know because you did the course.i just take it upon myself to check everything as a good professional driver should i do it mainly to avoid situations with our friends at VOSA.mistakes are made occasionally in transport offices around the country,altho its hard to get them to admit it sometimes we do have an onsite DGSA whos kinda knowledgeable and my boss has recently appointed a new off site DGSA who we can call if need be.ive been assured hes top notch and much better than the last bloke who was a bit hit n miss!!hes the one whos knocked our company into shape lately.ive been fairly comfortable with how ive dealt with the recent afore mentioned issues, so ive refrained from calling him and decided to bug you instead when ive got 5 mins to spare

Hi R.D, I’m so glad to read that news.

Mind you, and not many people know this…
The UK’s CDG Regs contain a statutory defence if anybody is charged with a contravention of CDG.
Reg 93 is very interesting indeed.

CDG 2007 Reg.93
93.–(1) In any proceedings for an offence consisting of a contravention of any of the
provisions of these Regulations, it is a defence for the person charged to prove that–
(a) the commission of the offence was due to the act or default of another person, not
being one of his employees (“the other person”); and
(b) he took all reasonable precautions and exercised all due diligence to avoid the
commission of the offence.

Since Consignor and Carrier are so well defined, along with their responsibilities, all a driver needs to do is to query something that doesn’t look right then get the person giving you the instruction to write it on your paperwork (along with their signature. ) That should take care of the ‘due diligence’ part, cos VOSA and the Courts know that drivers don’t have the type of responsibility that extends to looking stuff up in law books.

BTW, No problem with having a blonde moment, I’ve been known to have them too.

Stay safe mate, and please ask again if you need some help.

[r_d]

ok,thanks dave i really appreciate the time and detailed replies you have given me…i wonder if VOSA class this as other work? i dont wannna get pulled tomorrow by a bloke saying i saw your work related posts on trucknet this weekend,so youd better park up for 24hrs :laughing: :laughing: while were here…ive recently been issued with one of those new tremcards,one tremcard covers all apparently.is it legal to use it now in the absence of a regular tremcard,or do i have to wait until later in the year when it comes into force? i did ask my onsite DGSA and im awaiting a reply…cant work out why its taking him 2 weeks

[dieseldave]

R.D:
ok,thanks dave i really appreciate the time and detailed replies you have given me…i wonder if VOSA class this as other work? i dont wannna get pulled tomorrow by a bloke saying i saw your work related posts on trucknet this weekend,so youd better park up for 24hrs :laughing: :laughing: while were here…ive recently been issued with one of those new tremcards,one tremcard covers all apparently.is it legal to use it now in the absence of a regular tremcard,or do i have to wait until later in the year when it comes into force? i did ask my onsite DGSA and im awaiting a reply…cant work out why its taking him 2 weeks

Hi R.D, I was wondering when somebody would ask that question.

Now you’ve shortened your weekend break by reading this, I have to warn you that anything you say can be taken down, twisted around and given in evidence against you. Oh, hang on, they changed the warning… It may harm your defence if you do not confess immediately to anything we say you did…

Now to the question…
I reckon your DGSA might be having the same trouble that I’m having with that question.
When past editions of ADR got published, there usually came some kind of permission from the DfT that we could implement the ‘new’ stuff in advance of the actual new UK Regs coming out. That permission seems to be presently lacking…

I can say that it’s perfectly in order to use the new Tremcard on an international journey, because ADR 2009 clearly says so, but there’s presently nothing that I can find that gives permission to use the new Tremcard on a UK domestic journey in advance of the new UK Regs (CDG 2009) which are due out on 1st July.
(I checked yet again before posting this. )

So my answer is that I’d advise you to use the normal Tremcard system at least for the time being. I’d also advise that your boss needs to ensure that the relevant PPE and equipment is on board the vehicle at the time you begin to use the new Tremcard. On the new Tremcard, the list of PPE and equipment is dependant on the UN Class of dangerous goods being carried and there ARE some changes, particularly the drain cover and plastic collection receptacle for some Classes.

Rest assured, as soon as I can find some credible authority to use the new Tremcards on UK domestic journeys, I’ll post that info on here.

[r_d]

just as i thought,dave thanks for the advice.our new off site DGSA is well ahead of the game…as well as the new tremcard,we had our haz kits updated at the same time.my haz kit bag is now so full it looks like im off on holiday for 2 weeks and needs 2 blokes to lift it into the cab do you know anything about fire extinquishers? ours get automatically checked annually by a large well known company.this year they failed to do it.when my boss realised he phoned them to ask what was going on as most of them were overdue an inspection.he was told its ok,you get leeway on the inspection date and it doesnt matter if theyre a bit overdue.is this correct?? my boss wasnt happy with that reply and immediately got a small independant company to come in and do it.....can you tell im bored? i just sit around thinking up questions :laughing: as youre good at answering them,who do think will the champions league this year?

[dieseldave]

R.D:
just as i thought,dave thanks for the advice.our new off site DGSA is well ahead of the game…as well as the new tremcard,we had our haz kits updated at the same time.my haz kit bag is now so full it looks like im off on holiday for 2 weeks and needs 2 blokes to lift it into the cab

Hi R.D, It’s fair enough to have updated the PPE and equipment, but I can find no legal basis for being allowed to use the ‘new’ Tremcard at this time.
If your off-site DGSA tells you that you can use the ‘new’ Tremcard, please ask him/her for the legal reference that they relying upon and post it on here.

R.D:
do you know anything about fire extinquishers? ours get automatically checked annually by a large well known company.this year they failed to do it.when my boss realised he phoned them to ask what was going on as most of them were overdue an inspection.he was told its ok,you get leeway on the inspection date and it doesnt matter if they`re a bit overdue.is this correct?? my boss wasnt happy with that reply and immediately got a small independant company to come in and do it…can you tell im bored? i just sit around thinking up questions

I wrote about fire extinguishers on page 3 of this topic, which is HERE
I’d add that if VOSA discovers you without ANY of the requirements connected with fire-extinguishers, it’ll count as you haven’t got one, that includes run-out date, seals and pins. Anything missing means you don’t have an extinguisher, which will lead to an instant PG9 that’ll not be cleared until compliance is achieved. This usually means you being delayed until the situation is rectified.

R.D:
as you`re good at answering them,who do think will the champions league this year?

Now you’ve got me.

[r_d]

sorry,dave…when i said the DGSA was well ahead of the game,i meant were all upto speed ready for the new regs.i wasnt implying he knows something you dont.....if it came across like that then i apologise unreservedly! my fingers and brain move at vastly different speeds,this leads to misleading posts :laughing: :laughing: your info on the the fire extinguishers is just as me and boss figured,theyre all sorted so no worries in that department.ok,i think i might give you a rest now.take care and thanks again

[dieseldave]

R.D:
sorry,dave…when i said the DGSA was well ahead of the game,i meant were all upto speed ready for the new regs.i wasnt implying he knows something you dont.....if it came across like that then i apologise unreservedly! my fingers and brain move at vastly different speeds,this leads to misleading posts :laughing: :laughing: your info on the the fire extinguishers is just as me and boss figured,theyre all sorted so no worries in that department.ok,i think i might give you a rest now.take care and thanks again

Hi R.D, no need to apologise mate, I’ve not taken any offence cos that’s exactly the way that DGSAs work.

Your external DGSA and I aren’t in competition. Theoretically, we should both be telling you the same thing. When one of us says something different to the other, we normally ask each other for the legal reference for what each has said. Usually, that sorts it out and one of them thanks the other.
I’ll say again, if your guy says it’s OK to use the ‘new’ Tremcard, could you please ask him/her on what basis that advice is given?? A legal reference would be nice and then the whole thing is all very professional.
The exams for the DGSA qualification rely on writing a legal reference in addition to the answer to every question. I know your DGSA won’t be offended if you ask, but I’d like the answer to my question please, just in case I’ve missed something.

The problems come when a DGSA has other duties within a company, or is just plain lazy. BTW, I’m not suggesting that yours is either of those, but there are sometimes reasons for a DGSA not being quite up to speed on some things. In fairnes, although we all try our best, sometimes a person can be distracted and that can also apply to me.

It’s perfectly possible that permission has been given, but I’m at a loss as to where to find it because it’s not been forthcoming via the usual channels. If your external DGSA knows something that I don’t, then I’d be very grateful to know. Our way of sorting the facts from the fiction involves being prepared to give a legal reference for any info given.

R.D:
can you tell im bored? i just sit around thinking up questions

Since you seem to have so much time on your hands and I’ve answered a few questions for you, I’ll look forward to your DGSA’s answer to my one question…

[stringy]

Dave our PPE has been updated with drain seal etc and extra internal training has been given so we’ve already moved onto the regs with generic tremcard, our DGSA says that as we’re compliant with the new regs we can run with them as both are legal as long as you are compliant.

[dieseldave]

stringy:
Dave our PPE has been updated with drain seal etc and extra internal training has been given so we’ve already moved onto the regs with generic tremcard, our DGSA says that as we’re compliant with the new regs we can run with them as both are legal as long as you are compliant.

Hi stringy, Does your work involve international transport?
If so, then you can use the new version.
My legal reference for saying this is:
ADR 2009 5.4.3.1 (and the new ‘Tremcard’ is set out in 5.4.3.4 .)

The current UK Regs (valid for UK journeys) are dated 2007, and refer to ADR 2007 for the particular topic under discussion here.

Please ask your DGSA for the legal reference for what you wrote above, cos I’d like to learn the logic of how he/she gets to that opinion.

[stringy]

No Dave, UK container haulage

[dieseldave]

stringy:
No Dave, UK container haulage

Hi stringy, This probably won’t apply to all instances of UK domestic haulage, but if your jobs meet the following definition, then you’re OK:

CDG 2007 Reg. 2(1):
“international transport operation”
The carriage of goods, including carriage by more than one mode of transport, from consignor to consignee where that carriage takes place in more than one State.

ADR’s definition of “international” is very similar and doesn’t rely on you going out of the country in your truck either.

The permission to use the ‘new’ Tremcard (IIW) is contained in ADR 2009 5.4.3.1, so as long as there’s an “international” connection that’s fine, but containers are also usually muti-modal, so that part appears to cover you too. At present, the only time I can imagine you not being covered by this is if the container is hired by your company and they’re using it to carry out UK domestic work with no international element to the journey.

[jcc100165]

Hi Dave, Could you please confirm for me if Hydrogen Compressed UN 1049 on ‘tube trailers’, (150 cylinders on one trailer linked together) comes under Tanks or Packages for the regulations???Each cylinder is 89l in volume.
Cheers Jim.
Thanks for this help.

[dieseldave]

jcc100165:
Hi Dave, Could you please confirm for me if Hydrogen Compressed UN 1049 on ‘tube trailers’, (150 cylinders on one trailer linked together) comes under Tanks or Packages for the regulations???Each cylinder is 89l in volume.
Cheers Jim.

Hi Jim, that vehicle counts as a tanker, but In saying that, I’m making just one assumption…
…the tubes/cylinders are connected (manifolded) together and normally stay on the vehicle ■■ Am I correct?

[jcc100165]

Thanks Dave, You are correct about the manifold with the cylinders linked together. Much appreciated.
Can I also ask you one more question.
I believe you have to leave information in writing with a loaded trailer if it is dropped at a customers site.
My manager tells us this has never been the case and we dont need to. I think he is wrong.
Thanks Dave.
jim…

[dieseldave]

jcc100165:
Thanks Dave, You are correct about the manifold with the cylinders linked together. Much appreciated.
Can I also ask you one more question.
I believe you have to leave information in writing with a loaded trailer if it is dropped at a customers site.
My manager tells us this has never been the case and we dont need to. I think he is wrong.
Thanks Dave.
jim…

Hi Jim, although it seems to fly in face of common sense, I’m not able to say that the manager is in breach of ADR. However, it may be that the Health and Safety executive has an opinion on this subject under general H&S law.

ADR uses the phrase “transport unit” in the Regulations so here’s the definition:

ADR 2009 1.2.1:
“Transport unit” means a motor vehicle without an attached trailer, or a combination
consisting of a motor vehicle and an attached trailer;

You can see from the definition that it specifically excludes an uncoupled trailer.

[jcc100165]

Many thanks for your time Dave.
I’ll bow to my managers ‘superior’ knowledge on this one.
Thanks again,
Jim…

[dieseldave]

jcc100165:
Many thanks for your time Dave.
I’ll bow to my managers ‘superior’ knowledge on this one.
Thanks again,
Jim…

Hi Jim, no probs mate, we might get him next time though…

[delboytwo]

Hi dieseldave

i would like to ask as you mite be the man that knows, digital tachos have two types the standard one and the ADR one would it be required that if using a truck for the purpose of ADR regs you have two have the ADR one in that truck.

[dieseldave]

delboytwo:
Hi dieseldave

i would like to ask as you mite be the man that knows, digital tachos have two types the standard one and the ADR one would it be required that if using a truck for the purpose of ADR regs you have two have the ADR one in that truck.

Hi delboytwo, I’d like to ask you for two clarifications of your question please.

Is your question intended to mean all vehicles used for the carriage of all ADR regulated substances?
Where is your info from that there are the two types of digital tachographs that you mentioned?

[delboytwo]

dieseldave:

delboytwo:
Hi dieseldave

i would like to ask as you mite be the man that knows, digital tachos have two types the standard one and the ADR one would it be required that if using a truck for the purpose of ADR regs you have two have the ADR one in that truck.

Hi delboytwo, I’d like to ask you for two clarifications of your question please.

Is your question intended to mean all vehicles used for the carriage of all ADR regulated substances?
Where is your info from that there are the two types of digital tachographs that you mentioned?

Hi mate
i was reading the instucion manual for the digi tachos i know how sad am i
this is in the stonebridge one

Hazardous goods version / ADR

The ADR version of the VU is approved for
use in hazardous goods vehicles. It differs
from the standard VU in that it has explosion
protection and it is certified in accordance
with EU Directive 94/9EC.

Number for TÃœV test certificate:
ATEX 2507 X,with corresponding supplements.

The differences between the ADR VU and
the standard VU are characterised by functions
that are disabled when the ignition
switched off:
 Inserted driver cards cannot be
ejected.
 No printouts possible.
Background illumination for buttons and
display off.

The ADR VU explosion protection is
only guaranteed when the vehicle is stationary
and the battery isolating switch
is open.

there also one for the VDO dtco1381

and there say something to the same as above

on this one it has a small mark on the front of the unit with the letters EX to state that its the ADR one

its was just some thing i was wondering if there are different ones would you be required to use that type for ADR work