Some ■■■■■■■ executives on a visit to the UK in the late 1950s were shown around Gardner’s works at Patricroft and according to Dion Houghton, who was Sales Director at Gardner’s, it was this visit that prompted ■■■■■■■ to build an engine manufacturing plant in the UK. The ■■■■■■■ party were amazed at how laborious and time consuming engine manufacture and assembly was at Patricroft when compared with American methods. Gardner’s were still turning crankshafts on machinery dating back to World War One, and most of the other machines and tools were of a similar age. Gardner’s foundry was similarly outdated, and modernisation didn’t begin until the early 1970s.
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Good for you Carryfast, sorry Ive missed your intentions but so what, in no way am I asupporter of all things American theres no way yopu can get away from the ■■■■■■■ or the Gardner being good engines I suppose it comes down to that time honoured expression Fit for Purpose.Lets not forget that the TD120a and 120c had very narrow crankshaft journals, we changed ours mains and big ends every 18 months without fail. Ive never heard of a ■■■■■■■ with similar problems, and Scanias V8 could also be temperamental.Nice talking to you mate keep your ear to the ground Crow. And before I forget Gingerfold It may surprise you to know that most of ■■■■■■■ crankshafts were cast and machined by Ambrose Shardlow in Sheffield thats in Britain not the Ruhr not only for Shotts but also for Allentown. U.S. of A. Where did it all go wrong .Crow.
Carryfast:
gingerfold:
Some ■■■■■■■ executives on a visit to the UK in the late 1950s were shown around Gardner’s works at Patricroft and according to Dion Houghton, who was Sales Director at Gardner’s, it was this visit that prompted ■■■■■■■ to build an engine manufacturing plant in the UK. The ■■■■■■■ party were amazed at how laborious and time consuming engine manufacture and assembly was at Patricroft when compared with American methods. Gardner’s were still turning crankshafts on machinery dating back to World War One, and most of the other machines and tools were of a similar age. Gardner’s foundry was similarly outdated, and modernisation didn’t begin until the early 1970s.To which my reply would have been along the lines of we know because you lot are still making us lot pay to re build Germany’s industry instead of our own after we spent years bombing the place into submission using Merlin engines.At which point I’d have then told them that we’re making enquiries with GM about building Detroit two strokes under licence using US tooling except maybe some Prince’s crankshaft grinders.
Lots of valid points but all the British truck builders including Leyland up to the late 60s and Gardner were private companies with the domestic Market sewn up and a strong export Market so presumably most were making money but didn’t invest in enough development for the rapid changes the motorway age brought to the transport industry.
If you really want to find out the brilliance of Clessie ■■■■■■■ read “The Diesel Oddysey of Clessie ■■■■■■■■ by his son Lyle. The man was brilliant but as usual ripped off by the money men.
I run a 262 NTO 6 in my 1954 Pete and it will run rings around most UK trucks of the 50s and 60s.
I ran a NHC 250 when I was about 22 and pretty wild and I coundnt hurt it.
Mark
I remember driving old Thornycroft’s with ■■■■■■■ V903 motors. Bloody noisy but had some grunt!
SB
You say that KR, but the basic engines they (Leyland) designed with a little bit of Dutch and Swedish investment were still being produced until the late 90s at Scania and the mid 2000s at Daf 
Ther really was nothing wrong with the products, it was the management and their poor decisions that were the problem 
■■■■■■■ have lost their way a little in their home market too. I was having a discussion with my Editor about their future, I reckon within ten years they will be making diesel engines for pick up trucks and generators only. The truck market over here is going vertically integrated. Volvos will have Volvo engines, Paccar (Peterbilt and Kenworth) will have Paccar (Daf) engines and Freightliner/Western Star will have Detroit Diesel (which they own) engines. Mack already only use their own engines.
There will always be diehards that want ■■■■■■■■ but it won’t be economicably viable for them (■■■■■■■■ to make the investments to get their engines to pass the emission laws in such small numbers, so they’ll pull out of the market. They have a division making CNG/LNG engines, which will get bigger as time goes on, the infrastructure for that is being put in place now, but the days of ■■■■■■■ being a big player are numbered.
Their current engine, the ISX, is a boat anchor, it was an excellent engine pre 2003, but then they added EGR and never made a very good job of it, that was partly due to the engine manufacturers being caught trying to cheat the upcoming regulations and having the date of compliance brought forward as punishment, which reduced development time, but then they have got worse since they turned up the level of EGR and added DPF (Diesel Particulate Filters) to the mix. Now they have the added complexity of SCR (Selective Catalyst Reduction) which is another thing they’ve bolted on. They also suffer from premature camshaft failure. The problems they’re facing were enough to force CAT out of the market, so they’re living on borrowed time I think 
sisu in finland used ■■■■■■■ 14 and 10/11 litre from 80 to when ■■■■■■■ did finish euro engines,some finns liked them thought they where thursty,then they repleased them whit cat 15 and 18 litre total disaster engines for some years,now the powerline is from actros ,well will see the outcome of that when sisu owners where moustly ■■■■■■■ men whit fuller 
benkku
Muckaway:
I drove the L10 in 275 and 325bhp levels, and found they idled too fast to get a decent gearchange from the get go. My 275 however had a new clutch brake fitted and was no trouble after that. Did anyone find they lost power after a year or so? Mine was done about 3 times in the 10 years Smiths owned it and Dads’ 325 was notorious for suddenly losing power output, many were happy when a new driver turned it over and wrote it off.
Idealy you needed to set the top end once a year, also helped with emissions.
The only ■■■■■■■ engine to let me down on the road was a 350 celect, would not restart after loading, battery lead off for a couple of minutes reconnected and started ok.
What were peoples’ experiences of the ■■■■■■■ Celect computer? I hated it in comparisson to the simple Cat version. Our W reg 4000s had to have the code re-entered once the ignition was off for more than a few seconds, normally going into daft bugger mode when on a weighbridge or site entrance. Utter crap.
That said, the engine itself was lovely and quiet yet still made a nice sound, if that makes sense. While I remember, the Celect 340 was slightly quicker from a stand than a Cat C10 340, but thirstier and the Cat better on steep hills.
pig pen:
Muckaway:
I drove the L10 in 275 and 325bhp levels, and found they idled too fast to get a decent gearchange from the get go. My 275 however had a new clutch brake fitted and was no trouble after that. Did anyone find they lost power after a year or so? Mine was done about 3 times in the 10 years Smiths owned it and Dads’ 325 was notorious for suddenly losing power output, many were happy when a new driver turned it over and wrote it off.Idealy you needed to set the top end once a year, also helped with emissions.
The only ■■■■■■■ engine to let me down on the road was a 350 celect, would not restart after loading, battery lead off for a couple of minutes reconnected and started ok.
There was a guy who worked at ■■■■■■■ when they were at purfleet who used to set up the ■■■■■■■ engines for a lot of the tipper firms could really get them running sweet and good on fuel.
newmercman:
You say that KR, but the basic engines they (Leyland) designed with a little bit of Dutch and Swedish investment were still being produced until the late 90s at Scania and the mid 2000s at DafTher really was nothing wrong with the products, it was the management and their poor decisions that were the problem
■■■■■■■ have lost their way a little in their home market too. I was having a discussion with my Editor about their future, I reckon within ten years they will be making diesel engines for pick up trucks and generators only. The truck market over here is going vertically integrated. Volvos will have Volvo engines, Paccar (Peterbilt and Kenworth) will have Paccar (Daf) engines and Freightliner/Western Star will have Detroit Diesel (which they own) engines. Mack already only use their own engines.
There will always be diehards that want ■■■■■■■■ but it won’t be economicably viable for them (■■■■■■■■ to make the investments to get their engines to pass the emission laws in such small
numbers, so they’ll pull out of the market. They have a division making CNG/LNG engines, which will get bigger as time goes on, the infrastructure for that is being put in place now, but the days of ■■■■■■■ being a big player are numbered.I totally agree the basic engineering of Gardners leyland aec engines was second to none and the fact they lasted as long as the did and what scania and daf developed the leyland 680 to is testament to that but nothing lasts forever and development of the next generation of products should have happened sooner.
That’s what basically done for ■■■■■■■ here it wasn’t viable to devolp a euro 4+ engine for the number of vehicles ERF and foden could sell which then caused the catch 22 with daf and MAN as it’s totally the same as there product.
Well boys this really is a superb thread I m really enjoying it, we ve gone from engines to gearboxes to cabs what a good do. Technology has advanced so much over the years that it s left me behind,our old volvos were kicking out so much torque out 2500 revs that they ve been left so far behind theyre out of sight, todays motors are peaking at 1450 rpm and producing half as much fuel economy again. Personally I preferred the older days when fuel was a ■■■■ sight cheaper than it is now and nobody cared less if a Volvo, Scania or ■■■■■■■ powered m,otor gave more than 6.5 mpg. Keep taking the pills Crow.
BMA so once again the Germans win, this is not xenophobia I would nt buy a German made car or even worse truck shove them as far up your arse as youy can get them. When I see a Reichsminister or the Polizei driving a British built vehicle, then maybe i ll agree. Crow.Oh and before i go to the land off nod SISUS original choice was…Rolls Royce.Enjoy sleeping with your neighbours the Russkis nstravia Crow.
newmercman:
You say that KR, but the basic engines they (Leyland) designed with a little bit of Dutch and Swedish investment were still being produced until the late 90s at Scania and the mid 2000s at DafTher really was nothing wrong with the products, it was the management and their poor decisions that were the problem
■■■■■■■ have lost their way a little in their home market too. I was having a discussion with my Editor about their future, I reckon within ten years they will be making diesel engines for pick up trucks and generators only. The truck market over here is going vertically integrated. Volvos will have Volvo engines, Paccar (Peterbilt and Kenworth) will have Paccar (Daf) engines and Freightliner/Western Star will have Detroit Diesel (which they own) engines. Mack already only use their own engines.
There will always be diehards that want ■■■■■■■■ but it won’t be economicably viable for them (■■■■■■■■ to make the investments to get their engines to pass the emission laws in such small numbers, so they’ll pull out of the market. They have a division making CNG/LNG engines, which will get bigger as time goes on, the infrastructure for that is being put in place now, but the days of ■■■■■■■ being a big player are numbered.
Their current engine, the ISX, is a boat anchor, it was an excellent engine pre 2003, but then they added EGR and never made a very good job of it, that was partly due to the engine manufacturers being caught trying to cheat the upcoming regulations and having the date of compliance brought forward as punishment, which reduced development time, but then they have got worse since they turned up the level of EGR and added DPF (Diesel Particulate Filters) to the mix. Now they have the added complexity of SCR (Selective Catalyst Reduction) which is another thing they’ve bolted on. They also suffer from premature camshaft failure. The problems they’re facing were enough to force CAT out of the market, so they’re living on borrowed time I think
Hi Mark, agree with you here except the Mack engines are Volvo’s tuned slightly different and painted red, just as Europe with Renault.
Back in the U.K. I had an F reg 6x2 ERF with a E320 14 l. What a tool matched to a twin splitter.
Here in the States, over the past 20 years ran 6 Internationals with 14l, and 1 Volvo VN with a 14l 525 red top select plus. All were reliable, the 525 probably the best motor ■■■■■■■ had.
Had an early M11 1994 all the way up to M11E, also had one of the first 15l ISX in a Volvo 2000/2001. This engine was leaking engine oil into the fuel system and killing off the fuel filters. This motor went back to ■■■■■■■■ and later lead to a recall, and a guarantee by ■■■■■■■ of up-time. This motor was operated by Ruan truck rental, and the head service manager and myself were told in no uncertain terms not to discuss said fault with anyone. Mine was the first of our 6 to be repaired, otherwise a good motor.
Last week, I had a Volvo VN with a 15l ISX with DEF (ad blue) 400,000 miles, not a patch on that old 14l 525.
Must admit can not remember a major engine failure on any of the M11s.
It does look as if they are going down the CNG/LNG road, looking to supply the same company’s that once bought their diesel engines.
Regards to all.
Paul, the red top N14s are a well respected engine, I know quite a few people who have got so sick of breakdowns and infinite warranty claims on new engines that they have bought glider kits and shoved an N14 in them. The 525hp model seems to be the best of the ■■■■■■■ in terms of reliabilty, pulling power and gives reasonable economy to boot
tonyj105:
simply the best engines ever.
Saviem , this might have been the ERF part ex in antwerp, it had an early 335 in it,Never seen or heard of a ■■■■■■■ 335 before that in the UK, this would be around 1972/1973. my dad painted it when it was delivered and it went to Calor Gas transport in rushden., It was LHD and a really wide cab for the time , after a few bumps etc , they passed it onto Calor in Holland i believe. Apparently they loved it , outpulled anything they had.
It was one hell of a motor for the time.
Evening all, tonyj105, it could well be, as the vehicle I was mentioning had come in , as a part exchange ,from Transports Couloir, a direct Calor Subsidiary operation in Belgium, who operated throughout the Low Countries,and France on Petrochemical products.
Crow, good point about Ambrose Taylor in Sheffield, and the components for ■■■■■■■■ Yes where did it all go, Birmid in West Bromwich used to do castings for Harley Davidson. We had the skills!
By the mid 80s ■■■■■■■ were the largest engine provider above 200hp in the UK. their corporate strategy, detailed in several annual reports, was to “buy” market share when its engine designs were new. This would give them the low profit/high volume of sales , leading to a positive result! The exact opposite of Gardners strategy!
The ■■■■■■■ prefered policy at ERF led to close collaboration between the two companys. At the time of the deal ERFs balance sheet was not strong,(I purchased some ERF shares in 1985 at £2.06 each)! ■■■■■■■ financial muscle in the collaboration, allowed a credible “floor plan” for Dealer stock financing, and also supply of Demonstration vehicles. Towards the late 80s ERF was contemplating, (again using ■■■■■■■ financial guarantees), entering the “buy back” market. How much this engine builders financial “clout”, led to the setting up of ERFs in house contract hire operation could only be revealed by someone in the know,(codhead99 perhaps)? Certainly by 88 ERF shares had climbed to £36+!! ERF were , if my memories are correct about the 9th, or 10th, best performing, post crash companys.
Pursy`s right, if you get the opportunity read the book on Clessie ■■■■■■■■ its a real delight.
mercman123`s “let it lug” sticker on the 290s. Although ■■■■■■■ were great exponents of high torque rise, they never were able to manage the excessive fuel use penalty, incured at the top nd of the rev range. It made the early 290s a real test of driver discipline and skill.Unlike Mack, and of course Berliet whose 12lite “maxi couples” were very forgiving of the little exuberences that we all enjoyed!!
Yet ■■■■■■■ had available the Custom Torque NTC225, 225hp@1900rpm, with a torque output between 1100 &1900rpm of900lb ft. (small by todays standards, but compare that to a LXB in 1971!!Far more of a performer than the 12.17litre 205hp NHK, the assemblers choice.
nmm gives a very concise appraisal of the current situation, a market place legislation driven, (was it always thus)? and “vertical integration” sadly is the way forward. And his prediction of ■■■■■■■ future appears all to realistic.
Now dear CF, ■■■■■■■ always was, and always will be remembered as a far better lorry engine than the “green leakers”, (even if a Detroits wail is one of lifes accoustic pleasures)!Beware smokingbarrels obviously understands your world of Fire Appliances, for was not the V903 V8, a 306hp engine fitted into Nubians!!
Superb recollections Gentlemen, keep them coming, Cheerio for now.
.
That shows how far things have moved on, a 600hp ISX puts out 2050lbs/ft of torque and that’s with all the emissions crap castrating it