Tax credits were designed to make it worth working part time as if not the loss of benefits for being unemployed but not full time wasn’t worth part time jobs. Much like universal credit is trying to do.
The issue became that people realised you could do a part time job for full time wages there’s no point in working full time or even doing overtime as it goes off your benefits
kcrussell25:
Tax credits were designed to make it worth working part time as if not the loss of benefits for being unemployed but not full time wasn’t worth part time jobs. Much like universal credit is trying to do.The issue became that people realised you could do a part time job for full time wages there’s no point in working full time or even doing overtime as it goes off your benefits
Agreed, being subsidized should never net you more than by your own efforts, it is not the job of the state to aid the feckless, nor deviant employers who use the system to make their ill conceived business models work.
There is a point in working full time, overtime, shifts, whatever is needed to provide for and house the families you have by your own choice, it’s called pride in doing ones job to the best of ones ability, which invariably reaps not just job satisfaction, it can and does lead to landing better jobs and the knowledge that you have done your best not to be a burden on your fellow citizens…it is after all not govt money being handed out to those who play the system, it is money taken from said fellow citizens by the state, and as such the state should take its responsibilities to manage such systems properly and fairly, by not rewarding the idle at the expense of those prepared to do their share and more.
peirre:
There’s probably dozens of drivers sat at home without work in the post Xmas bleak season
This year - we have the “Run-up to Brexit” that seems to be making Jan-March (so far) somewhat different from the past years gone by…
I’ve just had a rather busy January on agency. I was getting more hours per week throughout January than I was in the run-up to Christmas. 
Now that we’re in February, and the “bleak period” has passed, I’ve chucked in the supermarket job - simply because I’ve got enough work at Manpower now. Besides, Staffline wanted me to go onto a 1 hour contract from my ZHC previously… This would oblige me to work a random mid-week shift IF they couldn’t deliver me my normal sunday shift I’d made myself available for every week up until that point.
I don’t fancy taking a £14.75 shift @ Waitrose where I might have to drop a £19.48 shift @ RM to do it - what with ■■■■■■■ off Manpower in the process… I don’t want to go rocking this boat - do I?
“No Deal”.
This week was also my 13th week at Manpower - and I was pleased to find an extra monkey in my pay this week, courtesy of “Holiday Pay”… Hmm. That’s not a bad accrument for my first 3 months there, so I’ve got no complaints indeedy! 
I’ve actually been trying to do just this for the past seven years - but only suceeded now in the last months leading upto Brexit - which hasn’t even happened yet! Perhaps there’s something in this “Driver Shortage” thing - after all.! 
Juddian:
the below is attributed to one Dr Adrian Rogers, though the source may be disputed, the general gist from back in 1931 is entirely valid.''You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom.
What one person receives without working for, another must work for without receiving.
The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from someone else.
When half of the people get the idea they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea it does no good to work because someone else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend is about the end of any nation.
You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.
That could just as easily apply to the rich receiving excess profits for little or no work, whilst people who actually go to work receive little or nothing in wages.
I came across the problem of low pay , companies expect you to top up your wages by claiming benefits or tax credits etc . This seemed to be the norm if you had a partner , a gaggle of kids and a council property .
I was one one of those that got caught out in the family tax credit farce when I was married . I didn’t apply for ages and when I did I queried the amount of the award , provided proof of earnings for both of us when the renewal time came around and the money went up . Come the third year they wanted it all back ! Thousands of us got hit like this and many more had their awards hugely reduced …
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grumpyken52:
I was one one of those that got caught out in the family tax credit farce when I was married . I didn’t apply for ages and when I did I queried the amount of the award , provided proof of earnings for both of us when the renewal time came around and the money went up . Come the third year they wanted it all back ! Thousands of us got hit like this and many more had their awards hugely reduced …Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk
Same thing happened to me about 10 years ago.
Ended up owing them £3k.
Work hard, pay your taxes then get shafted, when someone at other end of street gets handouts left right & centre
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I had similar experiences when my children were small. I wanted to work but family tax credit was reduced to the point that I was losing out too much. Others with no intention of working could afford holidays and a change of car though.
alamcculloch:
I had similar experiences when my children were small. I wanted to work but family tax credit was reduced to the point that I was losing out too much. Others with no intention of working could afford holidays and a change of car though.
The “Means Test” makes people pretend they are poor when they are not, and MAKE themselves poor - if that first option didn’t work.
A better system for benefits would be to make it like how holiday pay is paid on Agency:
The more work you’ve done over the time period leading up to your benefit claim - the more you get - but it tapers off over time.
Thus, only being out of work a few days, weeks, and months - leaves you OK for cash.
Being out of work over a year - and unless there is something seriously wrong with you medically, like missing a limb, eye, etc. - then what excuse does anyone really have for “not being able to get a job in a year” - in THIS day and age? 
Whilst I agree with you it is hard to enforce when MPs and lords etc take the mickey with expenses etc. You can’t have one rule for one and not for another. Realistically the whole country is corrupt beyond repair.
IF the industry was that worried about driver shortages, they would lobby parliament for a decent pension, or even a final salary pension that retirees could actually enjoy their twilight years on, and as someone mentioned Money , there lies the problem. Many older drivers simply cannot afford to retire, after taking home £400 - £600 per week, you suddenly drop to £120, and if lucky can top it up with Pension credits, or a reduced council tax that doesnt really give a decent living wage…there is a shock in store for those who cannot wait to retire, yet when they do, and they receive their pittance, are then forced back into a job they know well in order to live, or maintain their lifestyle without dipping into their savings or reducing their way of living.
Heres an example; My pension is £840 per month, i dont have a mortgage, but council tax is £120 a month. I pay for a sky package for the phone line and internet and tv…£100 a month, then my insurances for the appliances £45 a month, house insurance + contents is £120…my wife though retired pays for water, gas and electric + boiler and heating care and water pipes etc. ( around £200 a month ) so add that up, and see whats left for a few luxuries, shopping, and a holiday…i have credit card bills that i pay off @£300 a month, plus a bank loan £100. If you live alone, theres some thought as to why many drivers continue to work.Luckily i do have extra pension pensions, many do not.When you look at other countries pensioners, they live very well, can afford a car, and trips abroad, but we have a pension system thats way below what others get.
Many drivers take the trucking route, they pay up to £3000 for the training, just for bosses to ask them for experience ( many agencies will take them, but they have not had the proper training have they, only been trained on how to pass a test, but thats because there is no training, never has been really…in my day, a company took you on, you learned from the older ones, or went out with another driver. That doesnt happen today, because firms are too busy moving pallets to worry about training, so theyre on their own.
I do agree that there are many older drivers still on the road, myself included, and someone said they should relax the medicals for older drivers…no thank you…i have to have a medical to keep my hgv licence, annually, that includes a heart scan, booked and paid by DVLA, i pay for a doctor to fill out the forms ( they call it a medical ha ha ) £45…whereas my doctor wants £120…but the point i make is the fact that i am checked medical wise, how many today are overweight, yet dont get checked, how many have heart problems, but didnt declare…if anything i would make sure every driver had heart scans and obesity tests, along with diabetes tests at an earlier age ( say 45/50 ) and not wait until something fatal happens.
At the end of the day, dont blame oldies for working way beyond their retirement, blame the system for not giving them the care they need and have worked for.
Many times I have looked at the driver emerge from a truck or bus and thought “who did his medical examination”.!! We have all seen the fat unhealthy slobs lined up at the burger van, a heart attack just waiting to happen. Lets have proper medicals and if a person is unfit then they should lose the entitlement ,but benefit of some sort ought to come into play. If the DCPC has to stay let it mean something, have it delivered by someone who knows what he or she is talking about.
There is an issue with age/health/benefits/pensions.
It’s too easy to imagine a driver being too frightened to visit a doctor because of fear of losing their licence and ending up skint.
Those who loose a vocational licence through ill health should be better paid than those who choose to be unemployed.
There is an obligation to look after oneself of course, and I don’t think it’ll be easy to check or enforce such a scheme. But should the potential for abuse from ‘lead swingers’ prevent the majority benefitting, and protecting us all from sick drivers at the wheel?
There’s also a thought we should all be grown up enough to pay for private health insurance etc. I’d agree that’s best but can see most may believe that, but don’t follow their own advice. In the real world it needs a compulsory deduction from wages.
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It was called NATIONAL INSURANCE and it worked reasonably well, until so many non nationals heard about it and dipped in without having the inconvienence of paying in.
truckyboy:
.When you look at other countries pensioners, they live very well, can afford a car, and trips abroad, but we have a pension system thats way below what others get..
I forget which way round it is, but Germany and France have a 6.7 and 7.6 million euro deficit on their pension plans. They face the same problems as the UK.
A cheery little report
theconversation.com/huge-pensio … ting-88420
The net effect is that the pension industries in many countries are in a bad way. According to a Citibank report from 2016, the 20 largest OECD countries alone have a US$78 trillion shortfall in funding pay-as-you-go and defined benefit public pensions’ obligations. This shortfall is far from trivial. It is equivalent to about 1.8 times the value of these countries’ collective national debt.
albion:
truckyboy:
.When you look at other countries pensioners, they live very well, can afford a car, and trips abroad, but we have a pension system thats way below what others get..
I forget which way round it is, but Germany and France have a 6.7 and 7.6 million euro deficit on their pension plans. They face the same problems as the UK.
A cheery little report
theconversation.com/huge-pensio … ting-88420
The net effect is that the pension industries in many countries are in a bad way. According to a Citibank report from 2016, the 20 largest OECD countries alone have a US$78 trillion shortfall in funding pay-as-you-go and defined benefit public pensions’ obligations. This shortfall is far from trivial. It is equivalent to about 1.8 times the value of these countries’ collective national debt.
Do you mean million or should it be billion? A few million isn’t a big thing to countries the size of those but billions would be
kcrussell25:
albion:
truckyboy:
.When you look at other countries pensioners, they live very well, can afford a car, and trips abroad, but we have a pension system thats way below what others get..
I forget which way round it is, but Germany and France have a 6.7 and 7.6 million euro deficit on their pension plans. They face the same problems as the UK.
A cheery little report
theconversation.com/huge-pensio … ting-88420
The net effect is that the pension industries in many countries are in a bad way. According to a Citibank report from 2016, the 20 largest OECD countries alone have a US$78 trillion shortfall in funding pay-as-you-go and defined benefit public pensions’ obligations. This shortfall is far from trivial. It is equivalent to about 1.8 times the value of these countries’ collective national debt.
Do you mean million or should it be billion? A few million isn’t a big thing to countries the size of those but billions would be
All sorts of figures get bandied about because they all rely on projections (read guesses) about birth/death rates and economic activity (or lack of) but I pulled this from an article which is a couple of years old :-
“According to government sources France’s pensioner population is forecast to rise to 18 million by 2020 and 23 million in 2050. Therefore if nothing is done the existing pension deficit of €32 billion could rise to some €50 billion a year by 2020 and to €100 billion by 2050”
France, and probably Germany (?), does not have anywhere near as big a private pension sector as the UK. Whether that is good, bad or indifferent is a matter of opinion. They are all big numbers though and are becoming sizeable in relation to GDP meaning that the possibility of a government, in theory, defaulting on pension payments gets closer, especially as most of the generous schemes for their own employees are unfunded ie pensions are paid out from todays contributions topped up by taxpayer.
kcrussell25:
albion:
truckyboy:
.When you look at other countries pensioners, they live very well, can afford a car, and trips abroad, but we have a pension system thats way below what others get..
I forget which way round it is, but Germany and France have a 6.7 and 7.6 million euro deficit on their pension plans. They face the same problems as the UK.
A cheery little report
theconversation.com/huge-pensio … ting-88420
The net effect is that the pension industries in many countries are in a bad way. According to a Citibank report from 2016, the 20 largest OECD countries alone have a US$78 trillion shortfall in funding pay-as-you-go and defined benefit public pensions’ obligations. This shortfall is far from trivial. It is equivalent to about 1.8 times the value of these countries’ collective national debt.
Do you mean million or should it be billion? A few million isn’t a big thing to countries the size of those but billions would be
Well spotted,should be billion. And I’m hopelessly out of date as well
uk.reuters.com/article/uk-franc … AI20141211
President Francois Hollande’s Socialist government enacted its latest reform of the system in December 2013, the fourth since 1993. The overhaul aimed to plug a deficit due to reach 20.7 billion euros (16.4 billion pounds) by 2020 if nothing was done.
Being a nasty greedy boss of a haulage company, I hesitate to post this…but a lot of pension planning is down to where you are in terms of housing costs (particularly in the last decade or so), and what you are willing to forgo now for later.
Until the last two years, I never earned enough to put me in the 40% tax bracket. During the 28 years of business I’ve not been the top earner for around half that time, my point being I earn a semi decent wage but not mega bucks and in the early years I was very poorly paid. I bought my parents house off them when he became bankrupt and in some respects I was lucky because it was priced cheaply to cover debts rather than market value, so I acknowledge my luck (if not my parents’ luck) as regards housing.
However, I always stuck money in a pension, a whole £25.00 a month when I started in my early 20s. It has increased considerably since then, but to do that I haven’t had a foreign holiday since 1991 and had 7 holidays in 28 years. Apart from one mad car purchase, I’ve generally knocked around in ex GPO Combo vans and my house is a very average 30s semi in a very average town. I don’t have broadband or a television at home. I do spend too much on dogs though.
I read a book many years ago, quite dated now but the concept stands the test of time, called your money or your life.
The basic is that you look at what you are spending your life hours on rather than view things in monetary terms
amazon.co.uk/Your-Money-Lif … +dominguez
So when you buy a gizmo costing £100.00 and you are paid £10.00 an hour, ask yourself is that worth 10 hours of my life? The book introduced me to a new way of thinking and the idea of being not able to work was born. It’s a ‘thing’ now, FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early)., plenty of blogs out there. I think that people could save more for their future than they do generally, but it’s down to motivation.
Bit of a ramble, but pensions is a subject that anorakily has interested me for years.
alamcculloch:
It was called NATIONAL INSURANCE and it worked reasonably well, until so many non nationals heard about it and dipped in without having the inconvienence of paying in.
Actually it worked pretty well until the Thatcher government started attacking jobs and cutting benefits.
The abolition of the earnings-related supplement in 1982, for example, which meant that your unemployment benefit was proportional (for a period) to your previous earnings, thus getting out according to how much you’d paid in.
Nowadays, benefits are so low that most people don’t even consider it worth claiming unless they have absolutely nothing.
Basic benefits in the 1970s were worth the equivalent of about twice what they are today, but people still worked because their wages were higher, conditions were better, and jobs easily available.
And the facility of benefits meant that people didn’t have to take poor pay and conditions at work, whereas current policies of poverty and “activation” simply encourage the unemployed to undercut those already in work. People with secure jobs find their work being outsourced to upstart firms employing hordes of desperate and poorly-paid agency workers.
albion:
kcrussell25:
albion:
truckyboy:
.When you look at other countries pensioners, they live very well, can afford a car, and trips abroad, but we have a pension system thats way below what others get..
I forget which way round it is, but Germany and France have a 6.7 and 7.6 million euro deficit on their pension plans. They face the same problems as the UK.
A cheery little report
theconversation.com/huge-pensio … ting-88420
The net effect is that the pension industries in many countries are in a bad way. According to a Citibank report from 2016, the 20 largest OECD countries alone have a US$78 trillion shortfall in funding pay-as-you-go and defined benefit public pensions’ obligations. This shortfall is far from trivial. It is equivalent to about 1.8 times the value of these countries’ collective national debt.
Do you mean million or should it be billion? A few million isn’t a big thing to countries the size of those but billions would be
Well spotted,should be billion. And I’m hopelessly out of date as well
uk.reuters.com/article/uk-franc … AI20141211
President Francois Hollande’s Socialist government enacted its latest reform of the system in December 2013, the fourth since 1993. The overhaul aimed to plug a deficit due to reach 20.7 billion euros (16.4 billion pounds) by 2020 if nothing was done.
Being a nasty greedy boss of a haulage company, I hesitate to post this…but a lot of pension planning is down to where you are in terms of housing costs (particularly in the last decade or so), and what you are willing to forgo now for later.
Until the last two years, I never earned enough to put me in the 40% tax bracket. During the 28 years of business I’ve not been the top earner for around half that time, my point being I earn a semi decent wage but not mega bucks and in the early years I was very poorly paid. I bought my parents house off them when he became bankrupt and in some respects I was lucky because it was priced cheaply to cover debts rather than market value, so I acknowledge my luck (if not my parents’ luck) as regards housing.
However, I always stuck money in a pension, a whole £25.00 a month when I started in my early 20s. It has increased considerably since then, but to do that I haven’t had a foreign holiday since 1991 and had 7 holidays in 28 years. Apart from one mad car purchase, I’ve generally knocked around in ex GPO Combo vans and my house is a very average 30s semi in a very average town. I don’t have broadband or a television at home. I do spend too much on dogs though.
I read a book many years ago, quite dated now but the concept stands the test of time, called your money or your life.
The basic is that you look at what you are spending your life hours on rather than view things in monetary termsamazon.co.uk/Your-Money-Lif … +dominguez
So when you buy a gizmo costing £100.00 and you are paid £10.00 an hour, ask yourself is that worth 10 hours of my life? The book introduced me to a new way of thinking and the idea of being not able to work was born. It’s a ‘thing’ now, FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early)., plenty of blogs out there. I think that people could save more for their future than they do generally, but it’s down to motivation.
Bit of a ramble, but pensions is a subject that anorakily has interested me for years.
If you started putting money away in the 70s you were getting double-digit returns and huge tax reliefs, or participating in good index-linked company schemes. My old man cleared his mortgage in the 90s with the proceeds of a savings policy.
Nowadays, you’ll be lucky if your private pension returns exceed inflation, and it’s pointless shovelling money away if it involves grievous compromises now, only to get a pension later which still won’t afford a reasonable standard of living (or worse, just eats into the state benefits that you’d be entitled to, as many older retired workers have found with small company pension pots from decades ago depriving them of pension credits and free dental and eye care).
Many people in their 50s and 60s now just cash in small pots (now that it is possible to do so). And if you have debts or mortgages, it makes more sense to put capital towards these and pay them off sooner (and very few people nowadays are free of any debt).
I used to have savings accounts years ago. Now I don’t bother (and if savings become excessive, then I look to spend them on durable assets).
You can’t spent your life living on bread and water, just so that you can retire on bread and water.
Rjan:
If you started putting money away in the 70s you were getting double-digit returns and huge tax reliefs, or participating in good index-linked company schemes. My old man cleared his mortgage in the 90s with the proceeds of a savings policy.Nowadays, you’ll be lucky if your private pension returns exceed inflation, and it’s pointless shovelling money away if it involves grievous compromises now, only to get a pension later which still won’t afford a reasonable standard of living (or worse, just eats into the state benefits that you’d be entitled to, as many older retired workers have found with small company pension pots from decades ago depriving them of pension credits and free dental and eye care).
Many people in their 50s and 60s now just cash in small pots (now that it is possible to do so). And if you have debts or mortgages, it makes more sense to put capital towards these and pay them off sooner (and very few people nowadays are free of any debt).
I used to have savings accounts years ago. Now I don’t bother (and if savings become excessive, then I look to spend them on durable assets).
You can’t spent your life living on bread and water, just so that you can retire on bread and water.
I’m not that old! 
Started pension somewhere around '87-8 I think.
I’ll be speaking to my IFA to see what he suggests, taking some out, leaving it in and drawing an annuity, the landscape has changed and no doubt will do so again, it’s all about taking a punt really, preferably an informed as you can one.
I’m not suggesting that people live on bread and water, I’ve had long weekends, I’m not fussed about holidays, fail to see how buying a new car for 30 k every two years gets me to work any better than a second hand van that I keep for 5-7 years, nor why a house worth 400k 5 mins away from me is worth the extra in mortgage payments than mine worth less than half that. I go out a couple of times a week, I’ve not lived on bread and water.
My point was to an earlier poster than said people couldn’t save into a pension, they can and it’s no good moaning if you only have the state pension, which was never meant to last the 15-20 years that it has to now.
Possibly because I spend time on pension boards I know of people who have a good rate of return with self invested SIPPS, having spent time researching investment strategy ( which can be surprisingly simple) or like myself that put it with an IFA for a fee but still get a decent return.
All of life is compromise IMO. On the pensions board they tend to view people who overpay their mortgage as being a bit daft. I have no issue because I’ve overpaid mine and saved for a pension at the same time and still not lived on bread and water. Hopefully my bread in retirement will be more focaccio than stale and my water more Perrier than tap.