Hi
Need some advice! Got pulled by vosa in devon on Tuesday, was a major crack down- vosa, trading standards, immigration, health and safety, police were all there! Everything was fine as far as my paperwork was concerned and no visible defects on lorry! However as they looked at records they found MOT was out of date- the company were sure this wasnt the case turns out it is! Police issued me with a producer but obviously there will be nothing to produce! Obviously I will be fined- How much? Any idea about points on my licence?!
You won’t be fined and if the CPS charge you a not guilty plea is the way to go although I’d speak to the copper involved and remind him you’re just the driver driving your GAFFERS truck and he’s responsible for the MOT NOT YOU!
Reckon all you can do is have them get it done pronto and grovel like mad when you turn up to produce the brand new one. I have known someone getting a slap on the wrist and a “don’t do it again” in this situation with no further action thought it was a few years ago, and they did have a brand new MOT to produce to show willing. It was a car not a truck too.
If they do throw the book then I think the ‘O’ license holder is the primary target. I think the driver can also be prosecuted, but not sure how often they are?
No points with this offence. Even though you’re not the owner you’re still using the vehicle so not convinced about not guilty.
Earliest the MOT could be done is the end of next week- will wait and see what arrives in the post…
Not sure if they will doo the company for no mot and then invalid insurance?! Could be a hefty fine
trehane1:
no mot and then invalid insurance?!
A myth, it doesn’t invalidate insurance.
trehane1:
Hi
Need some advice! Got pulled by vosa in devon on Tuesday, was a major crack down- vosa, trading standards, immigration, health and safety, police were all there! Everything was fine as far as my paperwork was concerned and no visible defects on lorry! However as they looked at records they found MOT was out of date- the company were sure this wasnt the case turns out it is! Police issued me with a producer but obviously there will be nothing to produce! Obviously I will be fined- How much? Any idea about points on my licence?!
this is seriously not good news, trehane1. Seems to me that although we are required to complete vehicle checks on a daily basis, it would be very difficult to ensure that the insurance, MOT and other paperwork is up to date and current.
I’m sure that agency drivers would rarely ask a customer to produce these documents before taking a vehicle out, and it is also unlikely that even regular drivers would be asking to see the MOT certificate regularly. maybe there should be a rule that requires that copies of these docs are kept in each cab for perusal?
mrpj:
trehane1:
no mot and then invalid insurance?!A myth, it doesn’t invalidate insurance.
Beat me to it. The policy will say it has to be “roadworthy”. When the OP got pulled over the VI bloke would have made a song and dance about any defects, and it is 3 penalty points per defect. The OP would have mentioned this had there been any, I’m sure! So it was probably roadworthy and still insured.
This may mitigate the way the lack of MOT is handled.
Everything I can find online suggests that it will end up with them prosecuting the company and the TM is in the soup a lot more than the driver is (for no MOT)
DrivingMissDaisy:
You won’t be fined and if the CPS charge you a not guilty plea is the way to go although I’d speak to the copper involved and remind him you’re just the driver driving your GAFFERS truck and he’s responsible for the MOT NOT YOU!
That’s not correct for MOT offences, there are only 2 defences, first relates to going to a per-arranged mot test th other relates to vehicles temporary imported into uk. Your possibly honking of th defenc to no insurance if an employee drives in the course of their employment having been led to believe by his/her employer (and owner of the vehicle in question) that insurance was in place. This is a statutory defence which means that it is for the accused person to prove that it applies on the balance of probabilities.
One approach might be (if you get to court) to plead guilty but ask for an absolute discharge on the grounds that you trusted your employer (a qualified transport manager, who has promised the Traffic Commissioner that he will always operate legally) to make sure that these matters are attended to.
Explain to the beaks that there is certain paperwork that you are responsibile for as a driver (making sure the lorry has a tax disc, O licence, that the test sticker ON THE TACO is in date and so on) but there is no legal requirement for the truck to display a current test cert and (unlike the driver CPC card and tacho card) no legal requirement to carry it either.
Therefore, the law clearly places little or no emphasis on you, a lowly driver, checking that your employer has kept the truck in test. You could find no fault with it when you checked all the things you were supposed to check on it that morning, VOSA could find no fault on it when they checked it later that day, so you have done no harm and don’t deserve any punishment or sanction. Therefore an absolute discharge would be appropriate in the circumstances.
Unless they nod off half way through that, I think they’ll let you off.
Using a vehicle without a valid MOT is a 60 quid non endorsable ticket (£90 if not paid within 28 days). You were the one using it, so you’re the one responsible for paying.
There’s no points for it so simply get your boss to pay the ticket.
As usual, so much bollox here. I’m speaking from personal experience here. I was in this situation and went to court, entered a guilty plea and in mitigation pointed out that it was my employers vehicle. This is the key point, employers vehicle, not yours. After hearing my mitigation the clerk of the court advised me to change my plea to not guilty as under the law, strange as it may seem, you have no right to insist on seeing either a certificate of insurance or an mot certificate relating to an employers vehicles. Therefore you cannot be held responsible.
It’s not endorsable and your employer must either pay or reimbutse the fixed penalty. The copper was either incompetent or being a ■■■■■■ by giving you a producer. I think he could have used discretion and just issued a fixed penalty, and not a producer, ideally to the operator or, in these circumstances, if they demand your name and address I would give them your employer’s address without saying it is. Issuing a producer suggests there was some belief there may be no intention to get the vehicle tested which is absurd.
Realistically you cannot be held responsible for MOTing a vehicle that is not yours. I am sure there must be sensible police procedure in place for such circumstances as you would not be able to arrange and produce the MOT on a self-drive hire vehicle, for example.
Edit to add, I would consider making a formal complaint to Devon & Cornwall Police too.
mrpj:
trehane1:
no mot and then invalid insurance?!A myth, it doesn’t invalidate insurance.
In the car/motorcycle world, no MOT invalidates any comprehensive terms on the insurance policy, the policy will pay out for any 3rd party claims but the insurer may seek to recover the cost of all such claims from the insured.
i.e. You in your comprehensively insured £15k car swerves to miss a fox & hits a bus shelter, causing major injuries to 1 person, minor injuries to 3 persons, totally demolishing the bus shelter & write off your car. You realise the next day that your MOT ran out 4days ago.
Your insurance Co’ will deal with & payout to all the 3rd parties, the 4 persons injured + the owner of the bus shelter, they are legally obliged to by law. They will not be paying out anything in regards to your £15k motor.
They can then look to you to pay them back. If you’ve got sod all then they’ll probably just shrug their shoulders & increase everyone else’s premiums, but if you property/equity or money, they will take it.
It is a myth that it is a myth that no MOT does not invalidate insurance.
Chas:
It is a myth that it is a myth that no MOT does not invalidate insurance.
It’s sometimes a myth that it’s a myth that it’s a myth.
The word in the policy will (almost) always be “roadworthy”
See forums.moneysavingexpert.com/sho … p?t=417682
and Parkers say
Driving without a valid MOT
Driving without an MOT won’t always make your insurance invalid. In most instances the insurers will still pay out in full - and if your car is stolen, or damaged, the payout will usually only be reduced to reflect the value of the car without a current MOT.
However, some policies state in the small print that an MOT must be in force. Only in instances where the vehicle has a fault which contributed to, or caused the accident, can the claim be rejected
There isn’t a hard and fast rule, it completely depends on the fine print of the policy and a lot use the word “roadworthy” as it gives them more chance not to pay out… e.g. you have an MOT but a bald tyre
DrivingMissDaisy:
As usual, so much bollox here. I’m speaking from personal experience here. I was in this situation and went to court, entered a guilty plea and in mitigation pointed out that it was my employers vehicle. This is the key point, employers vehicle, not yours. After hearing my mitigation the clerk of the court advised me to change my plea to not guilty as under the law, strange as it may seem, you have no right to insist on seeing either a certificate of insurance or an mot certificate relating to an employers vehicles. Therefore you cannot be held responsible.
The operator of an LGV has legal obligations that cannot be simply thrust upon the driver. As a general rule, the driver would be responsible for anything they should reasonably be aware of, like anything covered by the daily checks or anything that has to be visibly displayed, like the vehicle excise license or the operators license.
Any TM’s amongst us care to explain when & where the MOT has to be displayed in regards to LGV’s?
There is also what is called ‘Mens Rea’. If you were out driving a truck which you knew to be out of MOT, then you had better know what your get out of jail card has written on it.
th2013:
Chas:
It is a myth that it is a myth that no MOT does not invalidate insurance.It’s sometimes a myth that it’s a myth that it’s a myth.
The word in the policy will (almost) always be “roadworthy”
See forums.moneysavingexpert.com/sho … p?t=417682and Parkers say
Driving without a valid MOT
Driving without an MOT won’t always make your insurance invalid. In most instances the insurers will still pay out in full - and if your car is stolen, or damaged, the payout will usually only be reduced to reflect the value of the car without a current MOT.
However, some policies state in the small print that an MOT must be in force. Only in instances where the vehicle has a fault which contributed to, or caused the accident, can the claim be rejected
There isn’t a hard and fast rule, it completely depends on the fine print of the policy and a lot use the word “roadworthy” as it gives them more chance not to pay out… e.g. you have an MOT but a bald tyre
There are myths about myths about myths & this one is a myth.
There are lots of little legalities that your insurance Co’ doesn’t want you to know about & it is extremely difficult to get to the truth.
The 3rd party aspects of an insurance policy have some fairly straightforward legal obligations that any competent Solicitor would be aware of. A comprehensive policy is a 3rd party policy with additions that are only subject to contract law.
Drive a car without an MOT & you will not succeed in claiming any one of your comprehensive additions to your 3rd party policy, the comprehensive terms of your policy are null & void, you have broken the contract & therefore no contract exists.
The 3rd party terms of your policy are guaranteed by law. Please do not confuse 3rd party insurance with 3rd party + comprehensive terms.
If you have no MOT then your 3rd party terms of your insurance are still valid. This is guaranteed by law & cannot be removed in the small print.
Only trailers display MOT discs. Drivers bear no responsibility for road tax, MOT or operators disc issues. Any fixed penalities should be reimbursed by their employer as they’re the negligent party.
Drivers should be most vigilant with tyres as this is endorsable. I think the employer should still reimburse the fixed penalty in all circumstances, but some may try not to if the wear or damage was in an area that was visible on daily checks.
I’m on a roll so I’ll post something that your insurance Co’ doesn’t want you to know about.
Your car is fully legal, comprehensively insured & it’s parked outside your house while you’re inside asleep.
A stolen car is driven recklessly down your street & sideswipes yours & all your neighbours cars causing several £1000’s of damage but approx’ £1000’s worth to yours.
The stolen car has been abandoned at the bottom of the street & the “alleged” driver has fled the scene.
How do you get the damage to your car put right?
Knuckledraggerz especially, will have serious problems with the logic involved in this one.