Charles Alexander 1938 Leyland Lynx


The classic 1938 picture of Charles Alexander of Aberdeen Leyland Lynx with a locomotive in the background has appeared on the forum many times. As Fodenway posted previously the loco is an LNER P2 which was designed and built in Doncaster by Sir Nigel Gressley specifically for the Scottish route Edinburgh to Aberdeen. It’s 2-8-2 wheel configuration gave it the traction needed to replace two engines by one, pulling freight and passenger trains on the Scottish inclines. The Charles Alexander company history appears closely related to the Aberdeen fish haulage business which the photograph depicts, effectively the long distance lorry competing with the rail freight before WW2.

I am involved with the Doncaster P2 Locomotive Trust Ltd. that has a project to build a replica of the loco shown in the picture. An artist wants to reproduce the photograph. I’m trying to research the livery colours of the Charles Alexander fleet. I’ve found colour pictures of more recent fleet '60s onward in blue or white but does anyone know the colour scheme in the 1930s?

Thanks for any help given!

You’ll know about this of course, but just to remind you that there is a wonderful film made in the '50s by, I think, British Transport Films (BTF) which will give some background depth to your project. It’s in DVD now but mine is a video released by The British Commercial Vehicle Museum entitled Fifties Freight No.1 and the relevant film on there is called Fish Run. Robert

Thanks Robert, I’ve checked the video on Youtube. V. poor colour but best guess I could make for livery is dark blue with red stripe on doors surrounding the gold lettering. Does this sound right.
Thanks
Mike

Doncaster P2 Trust:
Thanks Robert, I’ve checked the video on Youtube. V. poor colour but best guess I could make for livery is dark blue with red stripe on doors surrounding the gold lettering. Does this sound right.
Thanks
Mike

That sounds about right, if this model is anything to go by! Robert


images.jpg

The train ■■ in steam days there was a regular (nightly) Aberdeen to London fish train (fish for the London markets) and the train in the picture looks very much like it.

grumpy old man:
The train ■■ in steam days there was a regular (nightly) Aberdeen to London fish train (fish for the London markets) and the train in the picture looks very much like it.

Hi grumpy old man, that’s correct. The engine is definitely an LNER P2, which had this streamlined shape up to 1944 when they were taken out of service and converted by Thompson into an ugly Pacific. It’s not clear in the picture whether it’s actually hauling fish freight but it’s well documented that the P2 pulled the fish run. As the picture is in daytime, I would think it’s meant to represent the competing road and rail haulage but is not actually the fish run.
Cheers

Railway question out of ignorance. Would those goods wagons have been capable of running at Pacific speeds, or is a loco of that size and potential required simply because of overall train weight?

I’m not just sure when Charles Alexander’s motors started using Kendal as a change over point but it was probably after WW2 but it was certainly during the 50’s/60’s and 70’s although I’m not sure when they finished using Kendal for change overs. I recall that the initials C.A.P.T. was used on their sheets. “Charlies” as they were commonly known in the Town would arrive from Aberdeen at around 2 am or sometimes earlier and the Kendal Drivers would take over and deliver to various markets in Lancs and Yorks and then they picked up various bits and pieces as well as m/t fish boxes for return to Aberdeen. The Kendal Drivers would arrive back in Town during the early afternoon when the Scots lads would be waiting for them on New Road ready to fly back to Aberdeen. The Scots Drivers used a number of digs in Kendal although I believe the main one was Clara Ediss’s which was at the end of New road. There was always a stink of fish on New road because by the time the motors arrived from Aberdeen the ice was starting to melt ! Couldn’t see them getting away with carrying fish under sheets and ropes nowadays but that’s what happened years ago. Oh! and all the Charlie motors carried tow bars for if any of them broke down which happened occasionally I understand there were some hairy trips “on the bar”.
I knew quite a few of Charlies drivers and a couple of them did leave to start work for me at Bewick Transport as they got sick of the early starts and the headlong chasing about ! The Kendal Foreman for many years was a chap called Arnold Cook who I also knew but he has been long gone for many years. Cheers Bewick.

^^^^^
Interesting post Dennis, and it would have been good to witness the activity at Kendal. I presume that C.A.P.T. was the abbreviation for Charles Alexander and Partners Transport. Does anyone know who the “partners” were? Another food product carried under sheets back in the day was sides of bacon. A bet a few of those mysteriously disappeared into transport cafe’s up and down the country.

Bewick:
I’m not just sure when Charles Alexander’s motors started using Kendal as a change over point but it was probably after WW2 but it was certainly during the 50’s/60’s and 70’s although I’m not sure when they finished using Kendal for change overs. I recall that the initials C.A.P.T. was used on their sheets. “Charlies” as they were commonly known in the Town would arrive from Aberdeen at around 2 am or sometimes earlier and the Kendal Drivers would take over and deliver to various markets in Lancs and Yorks and then they picked up various bits and pieces as well as m/t fish boxes for return to Aberdeen. The Kendal Drivers would arrive back in Town during the early afternoon when the Scots lads would be waiting for them on New Road ready to fly back to Aberdeen. The Scots Drivers used a number of digs in Kendal although I believe the main one was Clara Ediss’s which was at the end of New road. There was always a stink of fish on New road because by the time the motors arrived from Aberdeen the ice was starting to melt ! Couldn’t see them getting away with carrying fish under sheets and ropes nowadays but that’s what happened years ago. Oh! and all the Charlie motors carried tow bars for if any of them broke down which happened occasionally I understand there were some hairy trips “on the bar”.
I knew quite a few of Charlies drivers and a couple of them did leave to start work for me at Bewick Transport as they got sick of the early starts and the headlong chasing about ! The Kendal Foreman for many years was a chap called Arnold Cook who I also knew but he has been long gone for many years. Cheers Bewick.

Eyup Dennis.

Charles Alexander were still running wet fish in containers int late 70s/early 80s ont A1. They used to run up yer back end with all leets off in their Marathons then pass yer holding a ■■■ lighter up.I believe they changed over at Edinburgh,Londonderry and Biggleswade where the day men tipped and loaded.No tractor changes,just out of one and into another. I remember the smell of fish on yer wagon as they passed when on neet trunk.Happy days.
An old friend of mine’s father kept a boozer called the Red Lion in East Linton on the old A1 and he remembers Charlie’s drivers calling in for a " wee dram or two" on their way south late afternoon.The fish watter used to run into the puddles ont parking area and smell a bit for a day or two. :laughing:

gingerfold:
^^^^^
Interesting post Dennis, and it would have been good to witness the activity at Kendal. I presume that C.A.P.T. was the abbreviation for Charles Alexander and Partners Transport. Does anyone know who the “partners” were? Another food product carried under sheets back in the day was sides of bacon. A bet a few of those mysteriously disappeared into transport cafe’s up and down the country.

Yes your quite right CAPT did stand for the full title of the firm. The main motor they used in the 50’s and early 60’s was the AEC Mercury 4 wheelers that were painted Royal Blue with a narrow Red band around the cab plus Gold leaf lettering ---- from memory ! Cheers Dennis.

Chris Webb:

Bewick:
I’m not just sure when Charles Alexander’s motors started using Kendal as a change over point but it was probably after WW2 but it was certainly during the 50’s/60’s and 70’s although I’m not sure when they finished using Kendal for change overs. I recall that the initials C.A.P.T. was used on their sheets. “Charlies” as they were commonly known in the Town would arrive from Aberdeen at around 2 am or sometimes earlier and the Kendal Drivers would take over and deliver to various markets in Lancs and Yorks and then they picked up various bits and pieces as well as m/t fish boxes for return to Aberdeen. The Kendal Drivers would arrive back in Town during the early afternoon when the Scots lads would be waiting for them on New Road ready to fly back to Aberdeen. The Scots Drivers used a number of digs in Kendal although I believe the main one was Clara Ediss’s which was at the end of New road. There was always a stink of fish on New road because by the time the motors arrived from Aberdeen the ice was starting to melt ! Couldn’t see them getting away with carrying fish under sheets and ropes nowadays but that’s what happened years ago. Oh! and all the Charlie motors carried tow bars for if any of them broke down which happened occasionally I understand there were some hairy trips “on the bar”.
I knew quite a few of Charlies drivers and a couple of them did leave to start work for me at Bewick Transport as they got sick of the early starts and the headlong chasing about ! The Kendal Foreman for many years was a chap called Arnold Cook who I also knew but he has been long gone for many years. Cheers Bewick.

Eyup Dennis.

Charles Alexander were still running wet fish in containers int late 70s/early 80s ont A1. They used to run up yer back end with all leets off in their Marathons then pass yer holding a ■■■ lighter up.I believe they changed over at Edinburgh,Londonderry and Biggleswade where the day men tipped and loaded.No tractor changes,just out of one and into another. I remember the smell of fish on yer wagon as they passed when on neet trunk.Happy days.
An old friend of mine’s father kept a boozer called the Red Lion in East Linton on the old A1 and he remembers Charlie’s drivers calling in for a " wee dram or two" on their way south late afternoon.The fish watter used to run into the puddles ont parking area and smell a bit for a day or two. :laughing:

Hiya Chris ! how’s it going on in’th Septic Isle ? sorry I meant Sceptred Isle :wink: I believe Charlies had stopped running through Kendal at the time you are talking about as I think all the old fashioned fish markets over this side 'ot Pennines had probably finished. But your right about the stink and the New Road in Kendal was where all the Scotch holiday coaches used to stop on their way up and down from Blackpool. There was a toilet block and a couple of tea and coffee shops and kiosks either side of the road as well. Busy place Kendal when the A6 was the main route north and south. Cheers Dennis.

Here is an Excerpt from an Old Commercial Motor
Which might interest some viewers.
From Commercial Motor
13th November 1959,
IN Aberdeen the name of Charles Alexander is synonymous with road haulage, for it is
from the granite city that, starting with a half share in a lorry in 1926, he built up a transport
organisation extending to all parts of England and Scotland.
Before the war the business grew up gradually, mainly by the purchase of vehicles from
year to year, and by 1939 60 lorries were on the road. After a period of consolidation, wartime
demands resulted. in further expansion and Mr. Alexander made his first block
purchase in 1941, when he took over 20 vehicles operated by Fraser’s Road Transport
Services, Ltd., Aberdeen, which were mainly concerned
with fish transport, .
A further 21 vehicles were added to the fleet in June, 1943, when Davidson’s Road
Transport, Aberdeen, was acquired. This was followed by the absorption of . three more
local hauliers: Watt and Davidson; A. and G. Wood; and J. S. Wilson. When in March,
1949, Mr. Alexander’s business was taken over by British Road Services, the fleet
consisted of 121 vehicles.
This proved to be only a temporary suspension of the Alexander road transport activities
and, in 1955, he returned to haulage with renewed zest and his company, Charles
Alexander and Partners (Transport), Ltd., which was formed in 1954, acquired the B.R.S.
units based at Old Ford Road and Rodgers Walk, Aberdeen, and at Peterhead and
Fraserburgh. The Old Ford Road unit included a number of his pre-nationalisation fleet.
In August, 1955, the assets of the Peterhead and Fraserburgh group, including
approximately 613 vehicles and 13 trailers, were sold to Sutherland’s of Peterhead (Road
Hauliers), Ltd., in which company Mr. Alexander acquired 50 per cent. of the shares an
became chairman.
The expansion of Charles Alexander and Partners continued and depo were opened at
Elgin and Macduff t serve the Highlands, and at Glasgow Leith, Liverpool, Manchester and
London. Operating more than 12 vehicles, the concern offer nightly trunk services to
Manchester, Liverpool Bolton and Sheffield, an important traffic being fish from the
northern Scottish ports and Aberdeen.
There are also overnight services 1 Dundee, Glasgow, Leith, Elgin an Inverness, plus
regular services 1 London and the south of England Collection and delivery north of Imre
less is effected by inter-working %mil Johnston and Mackenzie, Inverness An associated
company, James Paterson and Co. (Motor Hirers), Ltd., with 31 vehicles, handles local
traffic in Aberdeen.
On the vehicle side, company policy is towards complete articulation for work north of
Glasgow and Edinburgh, and more than 50 articulated tractors, with interchangeable
semitrailers, are already in operation in this area. The remainder of the fleet consists
mainly of eight-wheelers and includes a number of three-deck livestock vehicles and
contract tankers. Standardisation on A.E.C., Leyland and Commers makes is in. progress
as being most suited to the general needs of the organisation.
A new depot and workshop covering 5,000 sq. ft. has been erected on the lodgers Walk
site and all the com 'any’s maintenance—including conversions, major overhauls, platform
and bodybuilding—is carried out there.
What were formerly the stables occupied by Wordie and Co. in the days
before nationalisation, have been converted into a two-storey warehouse where storage is
undertaken for customers.
It has been found, however, that with the introduction of faster services and more modern
vehicles, manufacturers are sending smaller quantities to wholesalers, resulting in less
demand or bulk storage and a great deal more mart-load traffic requiring speedy and
efficient service.
A big development over the past three years has been the building of insulated and
refrigerated •containers at Rodgers Walk to meet the demand for better carrying conditions
for perishable foodstuffs. More than 20 of these, built in two sizes, are now in operation.
An unusual purpose to which the refrigerated containers have been put was their use by
Allan and Dey, Ltd., one of the largest fish merchants in Aberdeen, as cold storage for part
of their stocks while alterations were made to their own plant.
The head office at Old Ford Road is undergoing, complete rebuilding. The operational part
of the premises is in process of being remodelled to deal with the handling of containers
and to give separate entrance and outlet for the vehicles.
The old offices on the site have been demolished and will be replaced by a new threestorey
building with all modern conveniences. During the alterations, Mr. Alexander and his
staff are being accommodated in temporary wooden offices which have been erected in
the main building.
Charles Alexander and Partners work on a 24-hour basis, and they employ part-time
female clerks to cover evening work and a male contingent for night duties.
The business acumen of Mr. Alexander is best illustrated by the steady growth and coordination
of the transport companies of which he is chairman. In June, 1958, in
conjunction with Mr. John Rhind, he .formed a new company, John Rhind Transport, Ltd.,
and acquired the assets of John Rhind (Haulage Contractors), Ltd., including 40 vehicles
and a fine depot at South Anderson Drive, Aberdeen. capable of housing the whole Rhind
fleet and with a storage capacity of up to 8,000 tons_
The premises were originally intended as an ice rink, but had not been completed at the
outbreak of war and were later damaged by bombing. Since the formation of the corn
pany under the chairmanship of Mr. Alexander, modern workshops have been erected at
the rear of the depot and maintenance for the Rhind fleet was transferred there from older
premises some miles away in the town. More than half of the fleet comprises modern
eight-wheelers of Leyland and A.E.C. make, and trunk services are operated nightly
between Aberdeen and Glasgow.
John Rhind Transport, Ltd., acquired the shares of Alex Taylor of Glasgow, Ltd., which
company operates a filling station at Kennedy Street, Glasgow. New offices and vehicle
accommodation have now been built to enable the station to be used as a depot for the
Rhind fleet and the ,vehicles of Dundee Express Deliveries, Ltd., whose shares were taken
over in November, 1958.
The aim of this latest acquisition is to give Dundee customers a better service. The fleet
consists of 29 vehicles, of which six are furniture vans, and the remainder is engaged in
parcels and smalls traffic locally and too Glasgow. A process of standardisation and
modernisation with B.M.C. vehicles has already) begun, and the company haw acquired a
11-acre site in Bellfield Street, Dundee, or which a modern depot ant warehouse is being
erected.
It will include a furniture depository as well as genera warehouse facilities. Origin. ally a
family business operated by Mr. R. H. Barnett, win started in 1931 with one Austin van with
the assistance of his three brothers, Dundee Express absorbed number of other small
concerns over the years and built up an excellent, parcels service.
The whole of the Alexander grout is working to capacity and there is substantial subcontracting,
both between the various companies and to outside
hauliers. Although Mr. Alexander agrees that rates have decreased some what since 1952
and costs risen, the general and continuing is in efficiency has offset these trends.
Service is more important than rates,
In his view, and his own experience is, that a fair rate is still obtainable for top service.
Customer lost to rate-cutters have in many cases returned within a short time.
Standardisation and modernisation go
forward progressively, and it is probable that further notable development: will take place in
the near future.

No L/H mirror ■■?, hairy drive that !

When did the TDG takeover at Charles Alexander ? Cheers Bewick.

Hi , Folks in the 60 and 70 s we ran paper out of the North WALES Paper ,co Flint ,with multi drops round Scotland AS far as Aberdeen , 5 drops round Glasgow to Edinbourgh , and 1 pallet for ABERDEEN were out of pocket then so tried Alexanders for a price iirc it was 15 pound per pallet from there depo near Glasgow all went well for about 8 months the complaints paper getting wet ,Found out it was from there sheets after covering the fish coming down so an end to a great deal just a bit of useless info ,cheers Barry ,

:slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:Habled a few things like this happen to me , Hauling Soap Powder stuff for Thos Hedley Ltd,Then Procter & Gamble Ltd,A Load of Came Highly scented toilet soap, Left a scented frarngrance on the wagon body floor for ages, They claimed that Came Scent was worth a Fiver an ounce,The Liverpool ■■■■■■■ Dockers ■■■■■■■ loved, Why because it was free,Regards Larry.

Fish Run low res.gifHi,
As an update to my original question regarding the Charles Alexander livery. John Wigston, the artist who offered to re-create the photograph has painted the attached picture. With a little artistic license it shows LNER 2001 ■■■■ O’The North racing the Leyland. The Doncaster P2 Locomotive Trust is now selling mugs with this picture, so if any of you are interested, you don’t need to be a steam fanatic to buy one from the website (cockothenorth.co.uk).
Many thanks to those who helped with the colour scheme.
Mike