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UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
21

robroy:

Evil8Beezle:

robroy:
Any chance of naming these participating companies Lucy?
If mine is included I would love to hear their official line answers on a public forum, to some of the questions I would like to ask.
One would be …Why do they treat their good drivers in the same cynical way that they treat their ■■■■■■ contingent, (mostly from a main depot perspective rather than my local depot personally speaking)
If good drivers were valued (and paid) more than the worse ones, maybe more would be attracted to the co.
I think this question could apply to many large nationwide co.s tbh.
The Dutch have a system whereby you have to prove yourself to get on the second tier pay rate after 6 months or so, if you don’t you stay on the low rate.
That way the better drivers are better paid, and quite rightly so imo.

Ahh, but does the person who decides who the good and bad driver are, have 2 legs or 4? :smiley:

What■■? :open_mouth:

A bit of George Orwell pal, I forgot you were an uncultured Northerner… :laughing:
Basically I’m saying it would be hard to have a driver reward system that wasn’t bent in some way!
Got it now? :grimacing:

22

Evil8Beezle:

robroy:

Evil8Beezle:

robroy:
Any chance of naming these participating companies Lucy?
If mine is included I would love to hear their official line answers on a public forum, to some of the questions I would like to ask.
One would be …Why do they treat their good drivers in the same cynical way that they treat their ■■■■■■ contingent, (mostly from a main depot perspective rather than my local depot personally speaking)
If good drivers were valued (and paid) more than the worse ones, maybe more would be attracted to the co.
I think this question could apply to many large nationwide co.s tbh.
The Dutch have a system whereby you have to prove yourself to get on the second tier pay rate after 6 months or so, if you don’t you stay on the low rate.
That way the better drivers are better paid, and quite rightly so imo.

Ahh, but does the person who decides who the good and bad driver are, have 2 legs or 4? :smiley:

What■■? :open_mouth:

A bit of George Orwell pal, I forgot you were an uncultured Northerner… :laughing:
Basically I’m saying it would be hard to have a driver reward system that wasn’t bent in some way!
Got it now? :grimacing:

Sorry mate I worked on an animal farm since 1984, I was just coming up for air on my way back from Wigan Pier, after writing politics as a down and out in London and Paris.
So I divvent hev a clue what yer on aboot man being a thick northerner.

(English Literature GCE ‘O’ level B+ grade 1974)
■■■■ on that you poncy Southerner. :laughing: :wink:

23

robroy:
(English Literature GCE ‘O’ level B+ grade 1974)
■■■■ on that you poncy Southerner. :laughing: :wink:

You did ‘O’ levels? :open_mouth:
You are old… :wink:

I’m just not sure you’ve thought this reward system through in the context of corruption in corporate monghead management! :unamused:
The assessment is probably going to be made by the TM, and whilst they may respect a good driver, they are in the solutions business, so ‘Yes’ men rank high on their list of good…

Are you a Yes man Robroy? :grimacing:

24

Evil8Beezle:

robroy:
(English Literature GCE ‘O’ level B+ grade 1974)
■■■■ on that you poncy Southerner. :laughing: :wink:

You did ‘O’ levels? :open_mouth:
You are old… :wink:

I’m just not sure you’ve thought this reward system through in the context of corruption in corporate monghead management! :unamused:
The assessment is probably going to be made by the TM, and whilst they may respect a good driver, they are in the solutions business, so ‘Yes’ men rank high on their list of good…

Are you a Yes man Robroy? :grimacing:

Ok, I suppose you mean the modern ‘Logistical Solution specialist’ up their own arse type co.s …a la Stobby/DHL etc, to name a couple, in which case yeh, you’re right, robotic yes men clearly are their preference, but my firm have not dropped down to that level just yet. (Can’t believe I’m sticking up for them here :smiley: )
Neither would I ever lower myself to work for that type, as in answer to your question, No,.I am certainly not a ‘Yes man’ .

25

  1. As mentioned by Robroy above, why deskill a job and bring in working and monitoring practices that demoralise and demean your skilled staff, by dumbing the job down to level of the most incompetent tool you could employ, instead of training up the incompetent or, as is the case sometimes, getting rid of those who arn’t up to the task of lorry driving.

  2. Respect and common courtesy, this is normally shown by higher management, but more of the junior manager supervisory and behind the desk clerical staff could be several stages higher in the evolutionary ladder than a mixture of grunting scowling and bullying as normal communication, a swift course in those three magical words please thankyou and sorry would go a long way, if you’ve employed neanderthal drivers thats your look out there are better out there, an ethos of mutual respect makes a more productive environment.

  3. Favouritism, whilst it’s obvious some drivers are better at certain jobs than others, why persist in favouring the same crew whilst giving the crappiest and depending on pay scheme the worse paying jobs to the same poor buggers who just go and do it because that is their nature, not everyone is comfortable at confrontation, yes it makes your job easier but when you’ve ■■■■■■ the willing donkeys off enough they won’t necessarily complain but simply vote with their feet, then where are you.

  4. Supporting your staff, there can be instances where a driver is treated badly, sworn at or otherwise abused at some delivery points, high time a code of practice was established so the driver has some back up from his company in such cases.

  5. Excessive hours or workload, its not 1963 any more, no one should be working 60 hour weeks let alone 70 hours as some are still doing to make a reasonable wage up, this really does have to stop, we only worked a 12.5 hour day back in the 70’s and before, it wasn’t till we took on EEC drivers hours and gained the much safer 15 hour shift :unamused:

  6. Absenteeism, where there are good sick pay schemes they tend to be regularly abused by the usual few, management admin workshop or driving staff, yet no one thinks to put carrots in place, such as worthwhile bonuses for those who never take the micky, instead of which in practice you reward the ■■■■ takers instead of your reliable worthwhile staff.

I’ll answer number 6 in part myself, yes were paid to turn up so we shouldn’t expect more for doing exactly that, and i agree, but by allowing others to take the micky and paying out for replacement agency staff and/or losing production in some way, the costs eat into what could have gone towards a well earned pay rise for all, so why not instigate attendance bonus worth having, carrot better than stick.

26

robroy:
robotic yes men clearly are their preference.

And fit nicely in the accountants spreadsheet, where targets and cost saving are the goal! :smiley:

I can’t see that there will ever be a mutually beneficial arrangement between drivers and management, only intelligent compromise on both sides. But as one hand is able to dictate terms to the other, one hand will always lead the other…

It’s up to the Operators to change the industry or fix the problems, not us as we don’t have the power!
They could let market forces drive up wages to make it more appealing, assuming a real shortage actually occurs! :laughing:
Or they could scream and moan in an attempt to keep the labour plentiful and cheap with crap T&C’s… :unamused:

27

I worked for 25 years as a driver for a government department. When I started, we were 21 drivers; when I retired we were 4; there are now only two employed drivers! We usually retired, or occasionally died - no-on EVER left - such was the job, the terms and conditions and the benefits!
The government tried on two occasions to privatise us but, due to the constraints placed upon us by the situation at the places we delivered to/collected from (I can say no more than that) it became apparent that no private operator could hope to make it pay.
Over the last ten years, no new staff have been employed directly - drivers, office staff or warehouse staff - instead all being replaced by agency workers.
It has long been my personal belief that ultimately the intention in the long term is that only senior management will be employed and the entire operation will be run by agency staff. The agency/agencies will have an office on the site and will run the whole shebang, supervised by the depot superintendent and a couple of senior officers. Yes - the initial ‘wage’ cost per person is higher, but on the flip side, no NI contributions, no pension contributions, no holiday pay, no sick pay etc etc. And staffing flexibility as required.
(This hasn’t happened yet, but I can see that this is the way it is heading).

I think this may well answer a number of your questions.

Steve

28

Why is it so often extremely difficult for drivers to obtain simple items of kit that allow them to do the job better/easier?

Good quality gloves are as rare as hens teeth, strap winders and mounting poles are handed over with extreme resentment and often a delay, as is any uniform beyond an oversized hiviz vest. The idea of issuing a tramper with their own mattress cover is seen as laughable, and speccing lorries with a fridge as a frivolity.

Small things make a big difference.

29

i think its a great project Lucy, and one that can clear up a lot of questions. Its good that Hauliers are willing to give their time and effort too, so bravo to both operators.

I believe that the hours are an issue as to why newbies are not willing to join this industry. For a start, there is huge expense, maybe up to £3000, and what with poor wages, will take forever to recoup that money. I spoke to a guy recently who envied me in my job, he had the impression we were free to roam where we want, no bosses looking over our shoulder, stop when we want, where we want, and go on the ■■■■ every night when we park up. I had to put him straight and tell him not many drivers have any of those privelages ( that was in the good old days ) nowdays bosses fit trackers, to know exactly where you are, phones in the cab, or they have or insist on having your personal phone details, to call if you do stop, to ask the reason why ! Many employers will and do not pay for truck parking in a secure environment ( theres not many if any of those anyway ) and many drivers live week by week so they cannot afford to go on the ■■■■ and also we have the law breathing down our necks for drink driving, so its not an option. He was also under the impression we are earning a lot more than i told him, the wages are really very poor, for the hours we have to put in, especially the 15 hours 3 times a week, with the bosses insisting we only take 9 hours rest, in between ( fine if you on a night out, not so good if travelling home )…Meals have to be paid from our own pocket, and we often have to park on an industrial estate, or in a layby…with great risks of having fuel stolen, the curtains being slashed, and violence against the driver should he dare to get out to see whats happening. My friend is now well informed as to what he termed the glory job, with the added bonus of having to buy all the luxuries we need in order to do our job, workwear/protective clothing, gloves, a cooker, kettle, etc etc, and in most cases a fridge, manufacturers should play a part here, by retrospective fitting of essential items such as electrical fittings, wired safely for a kettle tv, microwave etc, not asking them to supply the kit, but an inverter for eg, so that a driver ( or boss ) can purchase these items, and plug them straight in. For me, the hours are ok, as my kids are grown up, but imagine a man with a young family, working away from home all week, having to work sat am for eg, and very little time for to spend with his family, and taking home just enough to take care of them with little left over for luxuries. Transport is a nightmare at the moment, lots of competition, and not much breathing space, therefor the driver is the last one to be thought of, getting or maintaining customers is quite rightly the priority…i rest my case with some of the issues facing new drivers, and why they dont want to enrol. Just look at this site, and facebook etc, to see how disgruntled drivers are, and the oldies and experienced who cannot wait to get out of the industry…need i say anymore.

30

(English Literature GCE ‘O’ level B+ grade 1974)
■■■■ on that you poncy Southerner. :laughing: :wink:
[/quote]
English Lit…you Woofter.!

Real men did woodwork and Engineering drawing !

31

3 wheeler:
(English Literature GCE ‘O’ level B+ grade 1974)

English Lit…you Woofter.!

Real men did woodwork and Engineering drawing !

I did that as well, (metalwork anyway) and we called it Tech Drawing,.and I won a place in an engineering apprenticeship with the results.
You don’t realise how good I am. :sunglasses:
:laughing: :laughing:

But then I went driving ■■■■ trucks. :imp: :unamused:

32

I was OK at technical drawing, but then we moved and i changed schools where TD wasn’t on the menu, found i was bloody good at Logarithms though and pretty fair on the rifle range :open_mouth: which was more like it :grimacing: .

Haven’t found them that useful on the lorries though, at least not directly, but the magpies and crows round here know to keep a low profile when they songbirds have babies… :sunglasses:

33

Evil8Beezle:

Daytrunker:
pay a driver what the job should pay instead of just above minimum wage and you get the job done,driver earns a proper wage both win no driver shortage Simples.

But that logic flies in the face of the logistics Operators modus operandi, which appears to be a 2 stage process. :smiley:
Step 1; Undercut previous supplier.
Step 2; Cut every cost to the bone, starting with the easiest… :cry:

The Operators STOBRATSinstigated this race to the bottom, and only have themselves to blame! :imp:

FTFY. :grimacing: but Phoenix from the ashes, WS has taken over. Lol :laughing:

34

robroy:
English Literature GCE ‘O’ level B+ grade 1976 (changed)

…and I won a place in an engineering apprenticeship with the results.
You don’t realise how good I am. :sunglasses:
:laughing: :laughing:

But then I went driving [zb] trucks. :imp: :unamused:

Me too! In the days when GKN had a business worth talking about…

Goodness now I feel old :cry: :cry:

35

I am neither a driver nor an operator in the normal sense. But I do employ a number of LGV driver trainers and operate a fair few vehicles.
My view is simple. Treat others as you would dream of being treated. As a result we pay more than the “going” rate, provide excellent kit, expect 4 days a weeks, sometimes 5 and rarely 6. Give them a pleasant working environment where the management actually genuinely cares about them and their families.
Results are twofold. Firstly, you end up with an operation that is difficult to match with startling results. Secondly, you have huge operating costs. So what? Know the costs, add a reasonable profit margin and there’s the charge to the customer. I don’t take a lot of notice of what others charge, but I know we’re still not the most expensive though we’re certainly not cheap.
But the customer isn’t stupid and they can see what they’re getting for their money. As a result, we are amongst the busiest in the area by a large margin.
There are some hauliers who adopt a similar model. But vacancies are few and far between – for obvious reasons.
I cant suggest a remedy to the general decline in pay and conditions for drivers. But, hopefully, there will be an upturn. I don’t believe there is a current driver shortage and I never have done. But statistics are scary with (off the top of my head) only 2% of drivers being aged under 25 and a massive number (I’m guessing at around 80%) approaching 60. Anyone can see what will happen over the next few years at this rate. Yes, we’ll have automation. But not in my lifetime.
Pete :laughing: :laughing:

36

If the operators being quizzed are PLCs then the answer for almost anything is “our objective is to maximise return for our shareholders”.
In other words they are run by accountants for the benefit of the few at the expense of the many!
If you’re asking privately owned/family hauliers the answers will depend more on the personality of the operator. The “me first, you very second” type as personified by the guy in the O/D forum looking at the best way to get his self employed drivers to pay for any truck damage!
Put that against the successful operator in T&D this month who tells his longest serving driver to go and see the Scania salesman and spec his new S730.
Can’t see any of the first operators drivers being 30 year men or indeed giving a ■■■■ and looking after either truck or customer.

37

Going to leave this running until Monday morning, so it’s your last chance people! :grimacing: :grimacing: :grimacing:

38

I’d answer as an Operator, but most of the questions don’t apply in so far as our pay rate is OK, we pay parking and breaks, I will stand up for my drivers if they are in the right, can’t remember the others.

As for paying for someone’s license, first off we are a small firm, money is not always there and its a risk. I take on a young lad , say 23 and put him through his test. One of three things will happen, it’ll work out and both parties will skip off into the sunset. Or, he’ll think he’s gods gift to the trucking world and if only that telegraph pole, Great Aunt Ethel and that low bridge hadn’t appeared out of nowhere, then he wouldn’t have a differently ventilated cab, so it’s not his fault… Or, having done 6 months he decides that the ‘glamour’ of Euro work is not what he thought and his girlfriend’s whinging that she doesn’t see him, but he doesn’t have any money to pay the training back cos he’s bought things for the baby… In that scenario, the clause that says he’s paying back training if he goes early means if I wanted to make something of it, I’d get a tenner back every month until 2040…

Secondly why don’t we pay good drivers more than bad drivers. Well in fairness, I have good drivers, full stop. Some are better than others at some things, others better at other stuff. So if I come up with some super duper matrix, I then have to collate a load of data and analyse it and be transparent about it. And how do I weight the criteria, choose those criteria and what parameters I set those criteria at, someone will own it favours Fred. Better off save the hassle and if I do take on a bad driver, make sure he either steps up to where the rest of them are at or he goes.

As for hours, unfortunately whilst everyone else has long hours, so do I. It would take legislation to change. On the other hand, on foreign work, it’s going to be long hours sometimes, especially with our obscure work. We make it easy as we can, but the job is what the job is and no one joins us under any delusions.

39

What I’d like to know is, why so many operators aren’t actually interested in their industry further than a way to fund their lifestyle. Most operators here are only interested in reinvesting the bare minimum. Cheapest vehicles, most basic uniform and facilities for staff. I can only name a handful of operators who seem to reinvest in their business. It shows a real lack of interest to me. If you look at the Dutch, Belgians, Scandinavians and Irish, just one glance at the equipment and the driver shows a real passion for the industry. It just doesn’t seem to happen here

40

When the temporary solution to the “driver shortage” (namely cheap Eastern European drivers) is removed via Brexit, what long term strategies are in place? Or are they pinning their hopes on automation?