Xmas saved! No more shortages!

[build5]

theguardian.com/world/2021/ … dApp_Other

Hahahahahahahaha…

Draws breath…

Aaaarhahahahaha…

"Haualage firms: We don’t want cabotage to sabotage our industry
Britain’s haulage industry has heavily criticised the government’s plan to relax cabotage rules for overseas drivers.

Rod McKenzie, managing director of Policy and Public Affairs at the Road Haulage Association, has told the Today Programme that his members are appalled by the plan to allow foreign drivers make unlimited deliveries within the UK during a fortnight.

“Ridiculous, pathetic, gobsmacked” were some of their more broadcast-able comments, McKenzie says (with an eye on the early morning audience)…

theguardian.com/business/li … 3d32250447

Aaaaaaahhhhhahahahaha…

Stop!..stop!..I can’t breath!!..aaaarrrrhahahaha…

“We need foreign drivers because of shortages”

Okay. Here’s your foreign drivers…in foreign trucks.

Reeeeeeeeeee! No. We didn’t mean we need foreign truck companies.

“But you can’t cope. We’ve got Xmas shortages, Fuel Shortages, toilet roll shortages”

B…bu…bu…but no! Not like that. Reeeeeeee!

It’s okay. We’ll stand the army down and give you what you want - MORE FOREIGN DRIVERS…in foreign trucks.

“Noooooooooo!”

The government played the RHA like a fiddle. Mr McKenzie will be looking for a new job on Monday. I’m guessing not as a truck driver.

Mr Johnson just satisfied every remainer and averted a “shortage” of everything in three simple words…

We’ll End Cabotage

What does it mean to me as a driver? Nothing. Waeberer will pay me UK minimum wage or I’ll go work stacking shelves in Tesco.

What does it mean to UK Hauliers?

Be honest. Just be honest and say you want cheap labour. Stop lying and saying it’s about a shortage. You’ve been caught out.

Wrap your business and dissapear. Nobody will miss you.

You’ve had a good run.

You banked on the RHA using scare tactics to get your cheap labour back. You leaked. You created panic. You actively worked against the country. You’re traitors.

The government just blew you out of the water with one sentence.

Sack Mr McKenzie.

Apologize.

[commonrail]

Agreed

Not quite what they were hoping for.

[jeffa]

The ghost of carryfast sees us through…

[build5]

I’m guessing the government bods are watching forums like this.

My answer as a driver - DO IT …bring in every foreign state owned truck company. They don’t even know what the RHA is and have no intention of joining it.

We’re going to get screwed no matter what happens. I’d rather get screwed on my terms and stick it to traitors who lied and cheated me.

PLEASE…end Cabotage.

For nothing more than a chuckle watching firms who’ve abused drivers for decades while I dance on their graves.

You brought it on yourself. Enjoy it

[jeffa]

Please sabotage the cabotage or the cabotage will woo the day the cabotage was not sabotaged…

[sidevalve]

I found it somewhat ironic that in the same interview, Rod McKenzie was whining about DCPC being a barrier to drivers returning to the industry.

Was it not the RHA and the FTA who championed the introduction of DCPC in the first place, as it made the industry appear more professional?

Until they realised that their members were going to have to pay for it.

[carryfast]

JeffA:
The ghost of carryfast sees us through…

I always said I’d prefer to see a load go on a Polish truck than a Brit train.
But somehow I don’t that’s Bozo’s plan in this case.

[build5]

Sidevalve:
I found it somewhat ironic that in the same interview, Rod McKenzie was whining about DCPC being a barrier to drivers returning to the industry.

Was it not the RHA and the FTA who championed the introduction of DCPC in the first place, as it made the industry appear more professional?

Until they realised that their members were going to have to pay for it.

Their members don’t pay for it in mosts cases, it’s the drivers who end up paying especially if they’re foreign drivers.

The RHA are NOT for drivers. We’re not their members. They don’t have our interests at heart. It always surprises me when the press approach the RHA when they want to talk about drivers working conditions or pay.

[sidevalve]

Build5:

Sidevalve:
I found it somewhat ironic that in the same interview, Rod McKenzie was whining about DCPC being a barrier to drivers returning to the industry.

Was it not the RHA and the FTA who championed the introduction of DCPC in the first place, as it made the industry appear more professional?

Until they realised that their members were going to have to pay for it.

Their members don’t pay for it in mosts cases, it’s the drivers who end up paying especially if they’re foreign drivers.

The RHA are NOT for drivers. We’re not their members. They don’t have our interests at heart. It always surprises me when the press approach the RHA when they want to talk about drivers working conditions or pay.

I agree with your second statement; but I take issue with the first. I don’t know of any reputable companies who force their employees to pay for DCPC courses out of their own pockets. There might be a few who expect drivers to do it in their own free time without being paid for it (and shame on them if they do) but that’s a different thing to paying for the course itself.

[build5]

Sidevalve:

Build5:

Sidevalve:
I found it somewhat ironic that in the same interview, Rod McKenzie was whining about DCPC being a barrier to drivers returning to the industry.

Was it not the RHA and the FTA who championed the introduction of DCPC in the first place, as it made the industry appear more professional?

Until they realised that their members were going to have to pay for it.

Their members don’t pay for it in mosts cases, it’s the drivers who end up paying especially if they’re foreign drivers.

The RHA are NOT for drivers. We’re not their members. They don’t have our interests at heart. It always surprises me when the press approach the RHA when they want to talk about drivers working conditions or pay.

I agree with your second statement; but I take issue with the first. I don’t know of any reputable companies who force their employees to pay for DCPC courses out of their own pockets. There might be a few who expect drivers to do it in their own free time without being paid for it (and shame on them if they do) but that’s a different thing to paying for the course itself.

Agency drivers, foreign drivers, newly qualified drivers all pay for their own CPC.

Quite a few reputable firms include a full CPC as a pre-requisite when applying for the job. Have a quick look on Indeed and you’ll see what I mean.

A lot of very reputable firms have a little cheeky scheme where CPC training is “voluntary” and “free” to attend on a Saturday or Sunday in your own time, without pay. That’s hardly in the spirit of what you’re suggesting is it?

I’ve worked for a very large firm who did the"free" CPC stunt so I know it happens.

I know some agencies have started offering CPC but that’s a fairly new thing because of the shortage.

If ‘most’ drivers were being offered free CPC in paid work time I doubt you’d see such a massive push back against it.

[sidevalve]

Build5:

Sidevalve:

Build5:

Sidevalve:
I found it somewhat ironic that in the same interview, Rod McKenzie was whining about DCPC being a barrier to drivers returning to the industry.

Was it not the RHA and the FTA who championed the introduction of DCPC in the first place, as it made the industry appear more professional?

Until they realised that their members were going to have to pay for it.

Their members don’t pay for it in mosts cases, it’s the drivers who end up paying especially if they’re foreign drivers.

The RHA are NOT for drivers. We’re not their members. They don’t have our interests at heart. It always surprises me when the press approach the RHA when they want to talk about drivers working conditions or pay.

I agree with your second statement; but I take issue with the first. I don’t know of any reputable companies who force their employees to pay for DCPC courses out of their own pockets. There might be a few who expect drivers to do it in their own free time without being paid for it (and shame on them if they do) but that’s a different thing to paying for the course itself.

Agency drivers, foreign drivers, newly qualified drivers all pay for their own CPC.

Quite a few reputable firms include a full CPC as a pre-requisite when applying for the job. Have a quick look on Indeed and you’ll see what I mean.

A lot of very reputable firms have a little cheeky scheme where CPC training is “voluntary” and “free” to attend on a Saturday or Sunday in your own time, without pay. That’s hardly in the spirit of what you’re suggesting is it?

I’ve worked for a very large firm who did the"free" CPC stunt so I know it happens.

I know some agencies have started offering CPC but that’s a fairly new thing because of the shortage.

If ‘most’ drivers were being offered free CPC in paid work time I doubt you’d see such a massive push back against it.

I can understand why employers would ideally want full DCPC; for the same reason as you would prefer to buy a car with a full year’s MOT rather than six months. In many cases though it’s negotiable where someone has perhaps skipped one or two years because they’ve been out of driving; much would depend on how badly they need that driver, in fact I’m minded to suggest that the current shortfall might encourage a few more firms to broaden their outlook in this respect.

I agree it’s not in the spirit; but again, I was referring to paying for the actual training yourself, rather than the firm paying for the training and expecting you to do it in your own time.

I’d suggest that it’s actually illegal anyway under WTD and drivers’ hours rules, since you are not free to dispose of your time as you think fit and would be under company disciplinary and conduct rules whilst you are attending the course.

Anyone know if there’s been a legal challenge made by this by one of the unions?

[build5]

I can understand why employers would ideally want full DCPC; for the same reason as you would prefer to buy a car with a full year’s MOT rather than six months. In many cases though it’s negotiable where someone has perhaps skipped one or two years because they’ve been out of driving; much would depend on how badly they need that driver, in fact I’m minded to suggest that the current shortfall might encourage a few more firms to broaden their outlook in this respect.

I agree it’s not in the spirit; but again, I was referring to paying for the actual training yourself, rather than the firm paying for the training and expecting you to do it in your own time.

I’d suggest that it’s actually illegal anyway under WTD and drivers’ hours rules, since you are not free to dispose of your time as you think fit and would be under company disciplinary and conduct rules whilst you are attending the course.

Anyone know if there’s been a legal challenge made by this by one of the unions?
[/quote]
I wondered about the WTD and it’s implications so I asked. The reply was “it’s voluntary, it’s up to you if you want to attend. It’s no different to doing a Spanish course in your own free time” not sure how true that is? But it was a very large company so I’m guessing they’ve ran it by their legal department.

Before CPC went online I know they were quite expensive. Today, you can get 35 hours for £200 so the cost of training is relatively cheap (£200 for 5 years) it’s the 5 days lost pay or lost personal time that drivers hate.

Firms offering ‘free’ CPC is the same as offering me £40 a year. Or put it another way £1 a week or 20pence a day.

My wife is a nurse. As you can imagine she has to do a lot of training to stay current and up to date. Every single course is run in work time at the employers expense and she is fully paid for every minute. This is pretty much standard for any job that requires training.

Note I said “required” training. CPC is required training. It’s not optional (like a Spanish course).

I think it’s just another way employers show how little they appreciate drivers and drivers know it. Probably why there’s no loyalty and drivers jump ship so often.

[sidevalve]

Build5:
My wife is a nurse. As you can imagine she has to do a lot of training to stay current and up to date. Every single course is run in work time at the employers expense and she is fully paid for every minute. This is pretty much standard for any job that requires training.

Note I said “required” training. CPC is required training. It’s not optional (like a Spanish course).

I think it’s just another way employers show how little they appreciate drivers and drivers know it. Probably why there’s no loyalty and drivers jump ship so often.

I’m minded to agree. Your wife’s example is how it should be done, and it’s fair to say that both my previous and current employers do it this way. The former is an own-account multi-national, the latter a small family general haulier; so it goes to prove that it is possible for any company; as you say it’s possibly a reflection of how much some employers do (or rather don’t) value their staff.

As to the jumping ship; in mitigation to the employers, it is hardly fair if a driver takes a DCPC course and then quits immediately afterwards, giving perhaps a rival the benefit. When I started my new job, my boss mentioned that if I were to renew my ADR whilst employed by him and then leave a year after, he’d expect me to reimburse him some of the cost; personally I think that’s fair for ADR because it’s not a cheap course. In my own case, I ended up in a rather awkward position this year; I handed my month’s notice in, then found I was on a DCPC course a couple of weeks later. I spoke to my line manager, and asked if I could still do the course; his reply was that since I was still employed and they’d booked the course for X number of attendees, it wasn’t a problem. Then again, I left on good terms.

Perhaps it’s time the government defined things a bit better, putting the onus on employers to pay their staff for the time they spend on a course.

[build5]

Or look at it another way -

Employer offers ‘free’ CPC. Employer pays £200

Employee legally required to do CPC. Employee loses £600 pay (minimum)

I lose £600 for the privilege of working for the employer■■?

[sidevalve]

Build5:
Or look at it another way -

Employer offers ‘free’ CPC. Employer pays £200

Employee legally required to do CPC. Employee loses £600 pay (minimum)

I lose £600 for the privilege of working for the employer■■?

Not sure who’s paying £600 for a day’s work; unless you’re referring to those who need the full five days instead of just a yearly top-up?

This is why I think that it should be possible to do the DCPC in stages, if you’ve been out for a few years but have done it before; a mandatory day covering tachos, drivers hours and the laws around them which is the most important part for anyone. This would involve amongst other things the use of dummy digital tacho heads in the classroom, the better to benefit those who are either rusty or have never used them before. Give drivers something to do with their hands and it passes the day along a bit quicker, and they learn more. Follow this up by two more days training on other modules to be completed within twelve months of the first day. Repeat the following year and you’re up to scratch, just needing one day a year. Plus, you’re earning money and driving a lorry effectively from day two instead of day eight, and at less initial expense. No different really to driving a fork lift truck; if you’ve already done the licence within so many years you only need a refresher.

I think this could solve several issues; for one it would spread the cost over a longer period making it easier to afford, for another it would reduce the classroom bind which many drivers, with justification, resent.

The whole thing needs a top-down overhaul, to make it both more flexible and fit for purpose. I believe wiser heads than ours are currently considering this.

[build5]

Sidevalve:

Build5:
My wife is a nurse. As you can imagine she has to do a lot of training to stay current and up to date. Every single course is run in work time at the employers expense and she is fully paid for every minute. This is pretty much standard for any job that requires training.

Note I said “required” training. CPC is required training. It’s not optional (like a Spanish course).

I think it’s just another way employers show how little they appreciate drivers and drivers know it. Probably why there’s no loyalty and drivers jump ship so often.

I’m minded to agree. Your wife’s example is how it should be done, and it’s fair to say that both my previous and current employers do it this way. The former is an own-account multi-national, the latter a small family general haulier; so it goes to prove that it is possible for any company; as you say it’s possibly a reflection of how much some employers do (or rather don’t) value their staff.

As to the jumping ship; in mitigation to the employers, it is hardly fair if a driver takes a DCPC course and then quits immediately afterwards, giving perhaps a rival the benefit. When I started my new job, my boss mentioned that if I were to renew my ADR whilst employed by him and then leave a year after, he’d expect me to reimburse him some of the cost; personally I think that’s fair for ADR because it’s not a cheap course. In my own case, I ended up in a rather awkward position this year; I handed my month’s notice in, then found I was on a DCPC course a couple of weeks later. I spoke to my line manager, and asked if I could still do the course; his reply was that since I was still employed and they’d booked the course for X number of attendees, it wasn’t a problem. Then again, I left on good terms.

Perhaps it’s time the government defined things a bit better, putting the onus on employers to pay their staff for the time they spend on a course.

£600 isn’t a day, it’s five days. Just like the cost to the employer isn’t £200 a day, it’s £200 over five days. Whichever way you look at it the driver loses more than the employer for the privilege of working for the employer. Unless it’s done in working time and paid of course.

Call me cynical, but it’s one of those petty things that really gets my back up when I see a job offering “free” CPC as if that’s some sort of perk. It’s right up there with “free” uniform and “free” PPE.

I think this is just one of many many reasons nobody wants to drive.

It’s that underlying feeling you’re stupid, untrustworthy, worthless and disposable.

If firms want to win hearts and minds instead of paying more money they really need to look at every aspect of their operation.

Does any employer honestly think drivers enjoy bouncing around job to job every few months? They’re doing it because they’re dissatisfied with something where they are.

[sidevalve]

Build5:
Call me cynical,

Hello Cynical.

I see where you’re coming from; but that’s a very Eeyore-ish attitude to take if you’ll forgive me saying so.

Where drivers are concerned, it’s a two way street. Most of us will stay the course, some will jump ship at the drop of a hat for a 20p/hour rise and still won’t be satisfied. The ones who chase the dollar are always the ones who end up disappointed.

My old man worked for Hoveringham Gravels all his life; 43 years and one day to be precise. He always used to say to me that a good job was worth twenty quid a week; when I asked him what he meant by that, he explained that if you worked for a good company which valued its employees, took care of their welfare, treated them with a modicum of respect and appreciated what they did, it didn’t matter so much that you didn’t earn top dollar because you were happy with your lot.

It might sound a bit old-fashioned and paternalistic in this day and age, but perhaps there’s still something to be said for that outlook.

[conor]

Build5:
Agency drivers, foreign drivers, newly qualified drivers all pay for their own CPC.

My agency have always paid for CPC although admittedly I’ve had to pay for a few modules because they’d schedule it for Saturday when I’m on nights on a Friday and it was cheaper for me to pay for my own than lose a night’s pay.

[albion]

Sidevalve:

Build5:
Call me cynical,

Hello Cynical.

I see where you’re coming from; but that’s a very Eeyore-ish attitude to take if you’ll forgive me saying so.

Where drivers are concerned, it’s a two way street. Most of us will stay the course, some will jump ship at the drop of a hat for a 20p/hour rise and still won’t be satisfied. The ones who chase the dollar are always the ones who end up disappointed.

My old man worked for Hoveringham Gravels all his life; 43 years and one day to be precise. He always used to say to me that a good job was worth twenty quid a week; when I asked him what he meant by that, he explained that if you worked for a good company which valued its employees, took care of their welfare, treated them with a modicum of respect and appreciated what they did, it didn’t matter so much that you didn’t earn top dollar because you were happy with your lot.

It might sound a bit old-fashioned and paternalistic in this day and age, but perhaps there’s still something to be said for that outlook.

That was my approach. Having been a driver I know manners, being asked your opinion, show of appreciation goes a long way. From an employers pov, its far better, easier and cheaper to have the same drivers year after year.

DCPC we paid for and done during the week, so wages paid. The DCPC didn’t make a huge difference to us tbh. We did full ADR anyway, so got 28 hours and prior to DCPC we used to throw a few courses around, stuff like drivers hours as a way of topping up. We sent managers on courses for refreshing CPC and we invariably were the only ones there that weren’t there after tea and biscuits with the TC.

[ets]

All I can say is RIP to all the new drivers who just spent £2000-3000 lured in by the up to £50 000-78 000 a year headlines.

I don’t work in general haulage but I can see the day in a not too distant future when all our work will be outsourced to the Turkish/EE equivalent of Culina/Freshlink and it’ll be work for £10 p.h. or good bye. Word has reached me (100% certainty) that a certain 3 letter company (recently re-branded) is now paying £11.50 per hour (days, more for noon/night shift) to all their warehouse employees and they have a warehouse 5 mins from me so there’s always that paid breaks too and 24 days hol + 1 each year up to 33 I think?