Hello all. I’m a bit stuck on this one.
Whilst I’m pretty aux fais on our daily laws & reg’s including the wtd., I need some advice if poss’.
My 19 yr old stepdaughter works for Waitrose & towards the end of last year she started doing house deliveries for their shopping network. All went well,even through the bad weather in december but lately her manager has taken to working her in the store from,say, 7am until perhaps 6 or so with just a 30 min break at most & then sending her out in the Sprinter with 7 or 8 drops to be completed before 8:30pm latest.
I should point out that her deliveries are in a rural area & can be up to 12 or 15 miles apart,not just round the houses. I’ve explained to her not to be pressurised into speeding & taking risks whilst driving but am curious as to whether or not these delivery drivers should be conforming to,or even protected by the WTD reg’s.
Also she has recently hurt her foot as a result of dropping a tray of shopping whilst loading the van.
Her manager says protective footwear is not a requirement for her job but I disagree & have given her a pair of toe-tectors for work since the incident ( I wasn’t aware beforehand that she didn’t wear any).
Any thoughts & info’ much appreciated.
I’ve told her that in our line of work her manager would’ve been told where to go long ago!
Not covered by our flavour of the WTD so probably comes under the regular folks one. Don’t know much about that one but you can opt out of the 48 hour limit on it.
Yep,unknown area to me too,just thought I’d ask. cheers anyway
The (full) shift pattern you describe - 7am to 8.30pm would fall foul of the standard WTR which give non-mobile workers the entitlement to daily rest of 11 hours. As far as I know, they don’t have the option of reduced daily rest the way we do.
However, just as it’s often a mistake to say that the WTR don’t apply to us, it could be a similar mistake to say that the RT(WT)R only apply to truck drivers.
It’s more accurate to say that most of WTR don’t apply to us, so could it be more accurate to say that most non-hgv drivers/crews don’t come under RT(WT) ■■
It’s often said that “The devil is in the detail”
The “Interpretation” and “Application” sections of regulations can sometimes produce interesting conflicts, contradictions and cross-overs.
There is a very real possibility her manager is creating your stepdaughter as a non-mobile worker between 7am and 6pm then creating the situation where she would/could be viewed as a mobile worker between 6pm and 8.30pm and therefore (possibly) subject to the provisions of WT(RT)R.
The “easiest” question is whether or not she works (as a mobile worker) on more than 11 or 16 days within the “Reference Period”
The 11 or 16 relates to whether the reference period is 26 weeks or shorter.
dambuster:
The (full) shift pattern you describe - 7am to 8.30pm would fall foul of the standard WTR which give non-mobile workers the entitlement to daily rest of 11 hours. As far as I know, they don’t have the option of reduced daily rest the way we do.
I’ve just read the regular folks WTD and it only says they have the right to a daily rest of 11 hours, it doesn’t say they must take 11 hours, there’s a difference. By not having 11 hours she isn’t falling foul of the WTD but if she insisted on taking 11 hours the company would have to allow her to do so or they would fall foul of the regs.
dambuster:
It’s more accurate to say that most of WTR don’t apply to us, so could it be more accurate to say that most non-hgv drivers/crews don’t come under RT(WT) ■■
Unless she is driving under EU or AETR regulations our version of the WTD won’t apply to her.
Ah - semantics, a game I’ve been forced by my underhand employer to learn recently 
I didn’t say “She” would fall foul.
As far as I understand it, there are no “infringements” in the way we understand them in regard to WTR against employees. For clarity, and as you said - the employer would “fall foul” by not allowing an employee their entitlement to 11 hours of in each 24 hour period.
I completely agree (and understand) the differences between “entitled” and “required” - It irks me greatly that I HAVE TO comply but others have the option, particularly as we already comply with 561/2006
And whilst I would agree with you that “Unless she is driving under EU or AETR regulations the drivers hours won’t apply to her” I’m not convinced that the WT(RT)R - in their entirety - wouldn’t apply simply because she isn’t driving something over 3.5t
The WT(RT)R apply to “mobile workers” - they are possibly not specific to only truck drivers/3.5t
The definition is . . . . “mobile worker” means any worker forming part of the travelling staff~ who is in the service of an undertaking which operates transport services for ~ goods by road for hire or reward or on its own account.
Of course the question of “operates transport services” arises, but is possibly easily answered by the the other question . . . . If she was driving a 7.5t, would they then apply ?
That might make an interesting (to the pedantic) topic in a specific thread
dambuster:
That might make an interesting (to the pedantic) topic in a specific thread
Meh.
Thanks lads.
Well her & most of her colleagues are regularily expected to work 15hr days (usually 7am - 10pm) then take 8 off & be back instore 6am til 2pm next day (oh & mostly on flat time straight through, no time & a half at Waitrose). Obviously she’s looking for something else but there’s not a lot round our way at the mo.
I think we can all agree that if she had balls then the company would have her by them 
I’ve no idea of the intracacies of the WTD and how it relates to this job. But what i do know is this…if you drive a Van/goods vehicle for work and its not covered by the EU tachograph regulations the it comes under the domestic regulations. They stipulate…
Daily duty limit - a driver must not be on duty for more that 11 hours on any working day. A driver is exempt from the daily duty limit on any working day when they do not drive.
So on a day you do drive you cannot do more than 11 hours in one day. There’s been plenty of companies caught by this and reported in the media, window/conservatory fitting companies for example drive from Brum to Cornwall, early start fit windows and conservatory and drive back late. Big no no.
The example you gave of 7am start and work till 8.30pm is illegal.
FLIP:
Also she has recently hurt her foot as a result of dropping a tray of shopping whilst loading the van.
Her manager says protective footwear is not a requirement for her job but I disagree & have given her a pair of toe-tectors for work since the incident ( I wasn’t aware beforehand that she didn’t wear any).
Hi FLIP,
The manager should know that a risk assessment is required for the job he/she is giving to your step-daughter.
It’s fairly clear that the legally required risk assessment (if it exists) is defective in that it doesn’t foresee the possibility of a driver dropping something on their foot.
In terms of the management of H&S, this is so basic that it’s a wonder that a manager could have missed such an obvious risk to your step-daughter.
I’m sorry to say that the word ‘manager’ is frequently misused these days, cos half of them can’t manage themselves let alone other people.
I reckon it’s a good job you gave her those toe-tectors. 
Thanks DD, apparently it’s not just her manager it’s Waitrose policy as are the working hours too.
The sooner she finds something else the better, trouble is she’s been there 3 years now & is friends with everyone but her mum & I keep telling her that they’re taking the mickey,what can you do 
I reckon the best she can do is hopefully get something else then blow the whistle on 'em.
Not sure that domestic hours rules apply to her van, that’s why I asked on this forum.
Cheers anyway
FLIP:
Not sure that domestic hours rules apply to her van, that’s why I asked on this forum.
Cheers anyway
I am , i’m certain !! Ring VOSA helpline and ask them…
Yep,we contacted VOSA. Domestic hours rules do apply,but no records need be kept if the vehicle operates within 50kms of base. Two things then really. 1:without records being kept it’s virtually impossible to police & 2: how many of these vans drivers are aware that their work is restricted & are advised on the rules? Very few methinks, certainly Waitrose don’t inform their drivers!
FLIP:
Yep,we contacted VOSA. Domestic hours rules do apply,but no records need be kept if the vehicle operates within 50kms of base. Two things then really. 1:without records being kept it’s virtually impossible to police & 2: how many of these vans drivers are aware that their work is restricted & are advised on the rules? Very few methinks, certainly Waitrose don’t inform their drivers!
Just a quick reply before i’m off to bed…
1> i know i said contact VOSA and they are supposed to be the experts but i wouldn’t rely on their word totally. If they say no records need be kept then that may be fine to satisfy the domestic regs requirement (i’ve no idea), but i’d be pretty certain that keeping a record of who drives a company van is a requirement of something or other along the line.
2> none i reckon. And if the company aint doing it then they need to be.!!!