I am a newbie C+E driver having about 6 weeks of agency driving under my belt. With my latest client, I am getting tacho infringements and I don’t understand why - a second opinion would be much appreciated.
These are working time directive infringements, not driving hours:
Example 1: Start shift 06:50, 16min break at 10:45, 30min break at 13:30, end shift 19:25. - this triggers a ‘worked longer than 6 hours straight’ infringement between 06:50 and 13:30.
Example 2: Start shift 06:49, 48min break at 12:00, end shift 19:19. This triggers a ‘worked longer than 6 hours straight’ infringement for 12:48 to 19:19.
I was under the belief that I need to take 15 minutes prior to 6 hours work, another 15 prior to 9 hours, and then a final 15 regardless of how far past 9+ hours I work. I know I cannot do 15 + 15 + 15 to reset driving hours, so hence doing either 15+30 or a 45.
Client insists this is not a client-specific rule, and that this is a genuine tacho WTD infringement.
Example one - no rules have been broken. This example is exactly as I would, and do, conduct my shifts, and I’ve not had a WTD infringement for about 10 years. I imagine you set the wrong mode on your tacho during your 16 min break, because you say the infringement is related to the 0650-1330 period.
Example two, you’ve gone for longer than 6 hours without at least a 15 min break, therefore it is an infringement.
Also, just to point out, if you have a 15 min break before 6 hours, you don’t need a 15 min break before 9 hours unless the length of your shift is between 6 and 9 hours (then you need a total of 30 mins of breaks). You just need to make sure you don’t ever work for more than 6 hours without at least a 15 min break.
The 6 hour rule
you can’t work more than 6 hours at any point without a 15 min break, a break of 15 or more allows you to work upto another 6 hours before needing another 15 min break. This works the same as driving 4.5 hours and a 45. (Only driving and other work count as working time)
The total break
This is dependent on the total amount of working time in the shift, only driving and other work count as working time for the wtd.
0-6 hours of working time = 0 break required
Over 6 but not over 9 = 30 mins of break/s
Over 9 = 45 mins of break/s required.
A shift can only be have 1 of the 3 apply, so ignore the other 2
Breaks can be taken anywhere in the shift to count towards the total required, except the very beginning or end of the shift, so each break must have at least 1 min of work either side of it and they must be at least 15 mins long to count.
The 6 - 9 and 9+ are purely used to determine how much break is required in total and are nothing to do with when any breaks are required.
So anyone who drives over 4.5 hours in a shift will have a 45 for that and tick the total break box for any shift, so all they’ll need to worry about is the 6 hour rule.
These are extreme examples
of what is legal
Work 6
Break 15
Work 6
Break 15
Work 2:14
Break 15
Work 1 min
I think example 1 is a client specific fault of the tacho set up for a minimum of 30 mins for a WTD break possibly. Presumably the rests you stated reset your driving time? A printout for that day would be good to see.
You need to spread out your breaks better , example 1, 14:00 to 19:25 you were getting close to 6 hrs straight.
I wouldn’t bother with a 15 ( although if I did it would be 20 ) , I’d just have a 30( though I’d have 35 ) , 35 you can have a break , 15 isn’t a break ,not a put feet up , coffee , read sun , break
I am still adamant that scenario 1 is entirely legal, and it seems others agree. I really don’t think I entered the wrong Tacho mode, but maybe I did. Printouts every day from now on.
What I did not appreciate from my research pre-test is the ‘15 minutes every 6 hours’ - I read the regs as that only applying to the first 6 hours.
MJJ_ZX6RR:
I really don’t think I entered the wrong Tacho mode, but maybe I did.
Occasionally, a lorry has a duff tacho unit, and when you put the mode onto rest/bed, it then turns itself to other work when you turn the ignition off or take your keys out. That may or may not have happened in your example 1, but it’s worth keeping that in mind, even though it’s quite rare.
This seems to be an issue across mutiple companies.
Some say that you have to have a 30 min break before 6 hours. As far as i am aware and it seems that others agree if working more than 6 hours but less than 9 you need to have a break or breaks totaling 30 min. it is acceptable to have 15 min before 6 hours working time and another 15 min between 6 and 9 hours working time.
some companies except this and it doesnt throw an issue. other companies will give you an infringment when they feel like it it seems.
I susspect this is more to do with that they would rather you took all of your break in one go and worked another 3 hours plus providing you dont go over your driving time.
There was a post some while ago where a driver was being told his WTD breaks were meant to be 20 minutes minimum, not 15 minutes, because the company software was calculating it for non-driving staff who require 20 minute minimum breaks gov.uk/rest-breaks-work
cooper1203:
This seems to be an issue across mutiple companies.
Some say that you have to have a 30 min break before 6 hours. As far as i am aware and it seems that others agree if working more than 6 hours but less than 9 you need to have a break or breaks totaling 30 min. it is acceptable to have 15 min before 6 hours working time and another 15 min between 6 and 9 hours working time.
some companies except this and it doesnt throw an issue. other companies will give you an infringment when they feel like it it seems.
I susspect this is more to do with that they would rather you took all of your break in one go and worked another 3 hours plus providing you dont go over your driving time.
It depends on what you are asked to sign actually says…
If it says you have infringed a company rule…and if you accept you have, then sign it.
If it says that you accept you have infringed on a law…and it is only a company rule, then don`t sign it.
In any case, only sign when any infraction, be it law or company rule, explained to you.
Zac_A:
There was a post some while ago where a driver was being told his WTD breaks were meant to be 20 minutes minimum, not 15 minutes, because the company software was calculating it for non-driving staff who require 20 minute minimum breaks gov.uk/rest-breaks-work
Might this be the case here?
Sounds quite possible, I`d say. The OP needs to talk to whoever reckons he is in the wrong.
I had to answer this when registering for an agency a while back. When I tried to explain there was no right answer I was told the usual “Our manager has his transport CPC”. I couldn’t be arsed to argue with them. I managed to pick the correct wrong answer after seeing it a squillion times on here
Terry T:
I had to answer this when registering for an agency a while back. When I tried to explain there was no right answer I was told the usual “Our manager has his transport CPC”. I couldn’t be arsed to argue with them. I managed to pick the correct wrong answer after seeing it a squillion times on here
What did they think the answer was? I can’t see anything wrong with it.
MJJ_ZX6RR:
Thanks very much all - great info and advice.
I am still adamant that scenario 1 is entirely legal, and it seems others agree. I really don’t think I entered the wrong Tacho mode, but maybe I did. Printouts every day from now on.
I wouldn’t go to that extent, as the chance of getting a printout is not lost, I could put my card in the unit today and get a printout of my first day at work which was many companies ago and over a year back.
I’m guessing they think it’s becasue there’s 9.5 hours of total work (inc driving) with only 30 minutes of rest, and that they have the idea that the driver needed 45 mins rest before he went beyond 9 hours - which would not be accurate. Obviously the person who put this together isn’t the type who appreciates being told they’re wrong.
Zac_A:
I’m guessing they think it’s becasue there’s 9.5 hours of total work (inc driving) with only 30 minutes of rest, and that they have the idea that the driver needed 45 mins rest before he went beyond 9 hours - which would not be accurate. Obviously the person who put this together isn’t the type who appreciates being told they’re wrong.
We have a winner
And no, they didn’t appreciate me telling them how wrong they were. I explained I’d put the answer I think they thought it would be but that it was wrong. Once they started rambling about their guy having a transport manager CPC I just gave up. You can’t educate pork.
Terry T:
I had to answer this when registering for an agency a while back. When I tried to explain there was no right answer I was told the usual “Our manager has his transport CPC”. I couldn’t be arsed to argue with them. I managed to pick the correct wrong answer after seeing it a squillion times on here
What did they think the answer was? I can’t see anything wrong with it.
If you’re going to split your break (which I hate doing)then the 15 should come first, not the 30.
But if you want to be pedantic about it then it should be called a break not a rest.
what i dont get is i assume the data is fed into some software package that reads it and decides if any infringments have occured. So how can all these descrepencies happen.
Terry T:
I had to answer this when registering for an agency a while back. When I tried to explain there was no right answer I was told the usual “Our manager has his transport CPC”. I couldn’t be arsed to argue with them. I managed to pick the correct wrong answer after seeing it a squillion times on here
What did they think the answer was? I can’t see anything wrong with it.
If you’re going to split your break (which I hate doing)then the 15 should come first, not the 30.
But if you want to be pedantic about it then it should be called a break not a rest.
Only 4hrs total driving recorded on the screen shot shown.
15 followed by 30 is correct to reset drive time, but not necessary for WTD.
