WTD help required

What hours do I need to keep track of with the following scenario:

I drive LGV’s on and off each week, some weeks all week, some none, some odd days. I also drive digger both on building sites, and on rail works jobs (exempt from WTD). Also run a farm and do farm contracting (also technically exempt during busy times). All the above done on a self employed basis.

A week could be as follows.:
Monday 8 hrs LGV, 5 wtd applicable, 4hrs farm
Tuesday 9 Hrs farm
Wednesday 10 hrs digger on site
Thursday 8 hrs LGV 6 WTD applicable.
Friday, and Saturday night 11 hrs rail digger work

What is countable towards the WTD and what is not as 13 hrs ar Farm exempt and 22 are rail exempt.

lets see…
If in any week from sunday midnight to sunday midnight you come under LGV EU regs then ANY other work counts as well as coming under the mobile workers WTD. So, although the other exempt WTD would not normally count - now it does
Well, thats my take on it - I await an expert…

If the farm and rail work can both be counted as exempt then surely you’re in no danger of going over the 48h average unless you do a long spell of full weeks in an HGV.

The bigger issue to me would be that if that week is anything like typical that you’re not going to be getting your weekly rests in as per the tacho rules.

Paul

Thats not a typical week, but one which may happen.

I always ensure i stick by the rules on rest, the following week could have 2 or 3 days rest, all depends on work, and time of year.

I have to side with Rog on this - if you do ant work ‘in scope’ then all work counts.

Perhaps ROG and Smart Mart could provide links to the regulations that say that you come under the WTD for mobile workers all week if you do any work under EU rules :unamused:


WTD for mobile workeers
:
The Regulations do not apply to:
mobile workers who are not participating in road transport activities covered by the European drivers’ hours rules or in some cases the AETR (e.g. employed taxi drivers, certain van drivers, chauffeurs);

TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF EMPLOYMENT

The Working Time (Amendment) Regulations 2003

Made 3rd July 2003
Laid before Parliament 4th July 2003
Coming into force
For all purposes except regulation 7 1st August 2003
Regulation 7 1st August 2004

The Secretary of State, being a Minister designated for the purposes of section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972[1] in relation to measures relating to the organisation of working time[2], in exercise of the powers conferred on her by that provision hereby makes the following Regulations -

  1. These Regulations may be cited as the Working Time (Amendment) Regulations 2003. These Regulations, with the exception of regulation 7, shall come into force on 1st August 2003. Regulation 7 shall come into force on 1st August 2004.

  2. The Working Time Regulations 1998[3] shall be amended as provided below.

  3. In paragraph (1) of regulation 2 (interpretation) -

(a) after the definition of “employment” insert the following definitions -

" “fishing vessel” has the same meaning as in section 313 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995[4];

“mobile worker” means any worker employed as a member of travelling or flying personnel by an undertaking which operates transport services for passengers or goods by road or air;";

Granted it doesn’t say all week, but i take it that as it doesn’t that it does, if you see what I mean.

I can’t find any requirement to work within the WTD for mobile road transport workers all week just because you work in-scope of the EU regulations for a part of the week.

The relevant WTD documents for mobile workers are:

Guidance on the Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005 (article 1.1):
1.2 Who is affected?

Mobile workers are covered by the Regulations if they are involved in operations subject to the European drivers’ hours rules or in some cases the AETR. Generally, drivers, vehicle crew and travelling staff of goods vehicles where the maximum permissible weight exceeds 3.5 tonnes or passenger vehicles suitable for carrying more than 9 people including the driver.

Guidance on the Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005 (article 1.2):
The Regulations do not apply to:

  • mobile workers who are not participating in road transport activities covered by the European drivers’ hours rules or in some cases the AETR (e.g. employed taxi drivers, certain van drivers, chauffeurs);
  • any drivers, crew, travelling staff who do not come within the definition of “mobile worker” in the Regulations (e.g. a teacher who drives a PSV on a school trip, that is subject to the European drivers’ hours rules);
  • passengers (e.g. construction workers being ferried to a building site would be passengers rather than travelling staff);
  • any worker who only occasionally does work which is within the scope of European drivers’ hours rules (see Section 1.3); and
  • self-employed drivers who come within the definition of “self-employed driver” in the Regulations (see Section 1.4).

The Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005 (article 2) and DIRECTIVE 2002/15/EC article (article 3):
“working time” means the time from the beginning to the end of
work during which the mobile worker is at his workstation, at
the disposal of his employer and exercising his functions or
activities, being
(a) time devoted to all road transport activities, including, in
particular -
(i) driving;
(ii) loading and unloading;
(iii) assisting passengers boarding and disembarking from
the vehicle;
(iv) cleaning and technical maintenance;
(v) all other work intended to ensure the safety of the
vehicle, its cargo and passengers or to fulfil the legal or
regulatory obligations directly linked to the specific
transport operation under way, including monitoring of
loading and unloading and dealing with administrative
formalities with police, customs, immigration officers and
others; or
(b) time during which the mobile worker cannot dispose freely
of his time and is required to be at his workstation, ready to take
up normal work, with certain tasks associated with being on
duty, in particular during periods awaiting loading or unloading
where their foreseeable duration is not known in advance, that is
to say either before departure or just before the actual start of
the period in question, or under collective agreements or
workforce agreements

Guidance on the Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005 (article 6.5):
6.5 What records need to be kept?

The Regulations do not specify which records should be kept - so it will be up to the employer to decide which system is most appropriate.

However, the records will need to show:

  • That weekly working time and night work limits are being complied with. It is for you to determine what records need to be kept for this purpose. You may be able to use existing records maintained for other purposes, such as pay or tachograph sheets or you may need to make new arrangements.

Henrys cat, you say you’re self employed, if you’re a self employed agency driver then the driving job will count for the WTD, however if you have an operating license then you may be exempt from the WTD until March 2009, see article 1.4 of the DFT guidance notes (third link).

As far as I can see, if the other work you do is exempt from either the WTD for mobile workers or the Drivers regulations then only records for the HGV driving job need to be kept for the WTD.

You should still fill in any charts for other work days if you come in-scope of the EU regulations during the week.

Smart Mart:
I have to side with Rog on this - if you do ant work ‘in scope’ then all work counts.

Not correct, tachograph is spot on. This is a simple question to answer and one that has been asked and answered many times before on this forum.

The farm work will not count toward the WTD, it will count as other work for the drivers’ hours rules. Conformation here, section 2.5 where it states

It does not include work performed for employers who are not involved in road transport activities (for instance bar work). However, such work would count as part of the “daily working period” for the purposes of determining compliance with the separate European drivers’ hours rules (i.e. bar work will impact on when you can work and how much work you can do).

It is the same as the guys on here whop work in a office Monday to Friday and do a bit of agency work on a Saturday or Sunday. They have no danger of getting anywhere near the WTD limits for other work as none of their office work counts toward the WTD, only the tacho regs.

It is the same as the guys on here whop work in a office Monday to Friday and do a bit of agency work on a Saturday or Sunday. They have no danger of getting anywhere near the WTD limits for other work as none of their office work counts toward the WTD, only the tacho regs.

Just trying to work out something in the above quote that I do not seem to have grasped :blush: :blush: -
As ‘any other work’ has to be logged in a week where some LGV EU scope work was done, does the DAILY breaks between the ‘other work’ shifts have to conform with the minimum daily break requirements :question:

You only have to observe the daily rest requirements on the days you actually drive under EU rules. IF you do indeed mean breaks rather than rest - break and rest are two different things and should not be confused - then as breaks interrupt periods of driving there is no need to observe tacho breaks in your other job.

Coffeeholic:
You only have to observe the daily rest requirements on the days you actually drive under EU rules. IF you do indeed mean breaks rather than rest - break and rest are two different things and should not be confused - then as breaks interrupt periods of driving there is no need to observe tacho breaks in your other job.

Thanks again coffee :smiley: - I could not quite work that one out before but it is clear to me now :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: - I think :exclamation: :question:

Legal (bit extreme) example: -
Mon - other job work 16 hour shift
8 hours off
Tue - other job work 18 hour shift
6 hours off
Wed - other job work 15 hour shift
9 hours off MINIMUM as going to EU regs next day :question: :question: :question:
Thu - EU regs day 15 hour shift
9 hours off MINIMUM as finishing EU regs day :question: :question: :question:
Fri - other job work 16 hour shift
Sat & Sun off

LEGAL :question: :question: :question:

i recently had a letter from the agency i work for including a mobile workers working time declaration.
i am self employed…doing mainly vehicle aircon repairs/general vehicle repairs etc.
when its quiet i call the agency and do a few days for them on paye.
do i have to keep records of all the hours i work for myself and declare them to the agency■■?

**:D :smiley: :smiley: Welcome xamtex :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:**

xamtex:
do i have to keep records of all the hours i work for myself and declare them to the agency■■?

I don’t think what you do outside the agency work has anything to do with the agency but records of each day (in a week where you come under EU regs) must be kept for VOSA etc
I got told when doing agency work - make sure you can legally do this job - leaving the onus on the agency worker.

xamtex:
i recently had a letter from the agency i work for including a mobile workers working time declaration.
i am self employed…doing mainly vehicle aircon repairs/general vehicle repairs etc.
when its quiet i call the agency and do a few days for them on paye.
do i have to keep records of all the hours i work for myself and declare them to the agency■■?

For the purpose of the EU Drivers’ Hours Regulations you should so they can ensure you take, or have taken, the correct weekly rest periods and the correct daily rest periods for the days for weeks in which you come under the scope of EU rules. You do not need to furnish them with details of the hours worked for weeks in which you do no driving under EU rules because the self employed work you do does not count toward the WTD as applied to mobile workers. As you are only driving part time you are not likely to get anywhere near the WTD weekly or reference period limits.

For weeks in which you drive you will need to complete records for the non driving days. The easiest way is to complete a tacho chart for those days simply showing your name, the date and the start and finish times of your ‘shift’. You will need to carry these records with you for the 29 day production period in case of a roadside check.

Sort of along the same line I think… I’ve just been called up for jury service, how should i record this for WTD purposes, do i treat it like holiday and sick, ie 8hrs per day and 48 for the whole week, or is it done another way?

it depends if you will be doing any driving in scope that week.

if not you dont need to record any hours at all. if you do (even if it is only one minute of driving on a tacho) then you need to record all hours worked as “other work” and retain it for 28 days.

is that right coffee and tacho?

**:D :smiley: :smiley: Welcome bigsib :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:**

I’d just book it as a day off unless the company is paying you for the day and recouping their money from jury service - well, they take the money you got for it.

Its the full blown crown court service so I’ve been summonsed for two weeks, could be more… not paid, not holiday either, but can claim expences, for what there worth. I’m not sure about WTD… if i have 2 weeks of 0 hrs then that will drop my average down through the floor and the contract im on will see it as an excuse to work my body parts off, I just thought that if other work fell outside the scope of the WTD(road transoprt), as my primary occuption is a mobile worker, then on my 26 week average I should book either 8hrs per day, or 48hrs per week as to be average neutral like holidays, and only claim 0 hrs if ive been stood down? and I havnt been stood down. Am I wrong?

bigsib:
Its the full blown crown court service so I’ve been summonsed for two weeks, could be more… not paid, not holiday either, but can claim expences, for what there worth. I’m not sure about WTD… if i have 2 weeks of 0 hrs then that will drop my average down through the floor and the contract im on will see it as an excuse to work my body parts off, I just thought that if other work fell outside the scope of the WTD(road transoprt), as my primary occuption is a mobile worker, then on my 26 week average I should book either 8hrs per day, or 48hrs per week as to be average neutral like holidays, and only claim 0 hrs if ive been stood down? and I havnt been stood down. Am I wrong?

Me thinks you need tachograph, coffeeholic or geebee45 for this one… out of my league matey - sorry