WTD from David jamieson MP

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
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About 8 weeks ago I wrote to my MP expressing my concerns of the ever looming WTD and the fact that my freedom to opt out and work more hours than the nanny state will allow are to be taken away from me.
He mangaged to receive this reply from David Jamieson MP.

Dear Andrew,

As you are probably aware,the main provisions of the sector specific Road Transport (Working Time)Directive (RTD) Include:

. Limits on the amount of weekly working time that can be performed .These are an average 48 hours per week (normally calculated over a 4 month period- although up to 6 months may be possible),and 60 hours for the amount of work that can be performed in any single week.

. Night workers will be limited to 10 hours of working in any 24-hour period
(although subject to conditions,this limit could be waived)

. Additional break periods,which will mainly apply to non-driving duties. Breaks in driving time will continue to be regulated under EU drivers hours rules.

. Self-employed drivers will be covered by the RTD from March 2009.

The definition of working time under this directive is also very important. It includes activities such as loading, cleaning and maintenance of the vehicle for example as well as driving time. But it does not include break periods(whether paid or unpaid),rest periods or “periods of availability”. Periods of availability might include for example,accompanying a vehicle on a ferry crossing,or waiting for a vehicle to be loaded or unloaded.To be a valid period of availability however, the driver needs to know about these periods in advance(i.e. Just before the start of the period in question), and be aware of their approximate duration.

I appreciate that Flub007 is concerned about his pay,but the impactof the directive will depend on personal circumstances. drivers, who experiance some availability time, may not be affected to any great degree. in addition, the current driver shortage in the industry may work to the advantage of many drivers. Indeed, there have been some well- publicised examples in the trade press ,of employers agreeing to significant increases in the basic hourly rate, in order to retain their drivers.Ultimately however, The directive says nothing about pay , so this will remain a matter of negotiation between employers and their employees.

Finally,I am aware that some drivers would like the freedom to opt-out of the average 48 hour week.Unfortunately, this is not permitted under RTD. During negotiations we argued that individuals should be given the choice of working longer than the average 48 hour week, if that is what they wanted. Although this is permitted under the main working time directive, the european commission and several member states were opposed to having it in the RTD. In the end we were unable to secure its inclusion.

The Department published a consultation document in 2003 that describes in detail, the provisions of the Directive and the options the government is considering for its implementation into domestic law. We have received over a hundred responses to this exercise, from both sides of the industry and other interested stakeholders. The replies are currently being analysed, but we should be able to confirm very shortly how we are going to implement this legislation.

David Jamieson.

Go on then gang what do you all reckon :question: :confused: :confused: :open_mouth: :open_mouth:

2

didnt even understand it :laughing:

3

I think the Guy has wrote you a nice letter… doesnt help much …but a nice letter all the same!! :wink:

4

thats cleared it up then!!!
But at least he did give a detailed reply

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jimti:
thats cleared it up then!!!
But at least he did give a detailed reply

Sounds like he’s told you what you already knew with the addition of “this is how it’s going to be, if you don’t like it then tough coz it’s not gonna change, t-ra”. :laughing:

6

Well it seems that periods of availibility and breaks don’t come under the WTD, but the RHA arcticle in the other WTD thread doesn’t seem to know whether periods of availibility will be covered, so expect some legal test cases one the WTD comes in because the unions want all time with working for an employer covered and employers and maybe many drivers will not want it included.
As for an opt out no chance and pay is between you and your employer and nothing to do with him.
Just one question Flub007, why do you want the option to work long hours? Surely the reason we problems geting a decent basic wage, recruit of new drivers and retain existing ones is the fact that the industry is run on the fact that drivers will do 60+ hours a week.

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"Just one question Flub007, why do you want the option to work long hours? Surely the reason we problems geting a decent basic wage, recruit of new drivers and retain existing ones is the fact that the industry is run on the fact that drivers will do 60+ hours a week.
[/quote]
"

Because if the option is there then I can work more hours to earn more money.
But if the EU get their way which it seems they have then I will be limited to 48 hrs and as I’m a realist, I’m under no illusion that my pay will not be increased to compensate for reducing my hours.

No disrespect to anyone on here but I’m only really interested in what goes in to my bank on Friday and at the moment come next March it’s going to be around £200 a week less than now :cry:
No good spouting on to me about mop and bucket money the facts are I’m going to lose out and yeah it would be great to spend those extra 12 or more hours with my nipper but not in a card board box because we failed to pay the rent.All I asked my MP was could an option to opt out be included in the Directive? But obviously not.

I just think that there are going to be a few skint UK drivers come March and may be a few richer EU Drivers :smiling_imp: :question:

Rant over.

Flub

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flub007:
I just think that there are going to be a few skint UK drivers come March and may be a few richer EU Drivers :smiling_imp: :question:

Rant over.

Flub

Well I only care what goes in the bank, driving for me is a living not a hobby! (wont catch me polishing the wheels in my own time :open_mouth: )
I do an average 60 hours a week at the moment but would be happier only doing 48 hours (get them out of the way by midnight tuesday & have a 5 day weekend :laughing: :laughing: ), if the rates dont go up to compensate for the lost 12 hours I shall be down the jobcentre looking for a job as a semi-skilled brain surgeon.
Rates will go up, hauliers will pass on the cost of employing additional drivers (even if they are poorly trained immigrants) & the whole cost of living will go up so the only real winners will be the government who will still be taking tax off us all.

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And what about those of us that do tramping work; a good number of us on here it seems :question: As I’ve said before, it’s more a way of life, being away from home all week without any ties nor dependents. I’m used to leaving late on a Sunday and not seeing the house again until Friday evening, although an early finish on Friday wouldn’t go amiss.

Apart from the late running on a Friday sometimes which gets my back up, I enjoy the work, the people I work with and the fact my monthly house bills can all be paid with the small change in my pocket because I’m never there.

It would be one hell of a change to adapt to going back on doing “local” work where I would be home every night. I don’t like commuting to and from work and it wastes time which you’re not getting paid for and I certainly don’t enjoy having to get up at silly o’clock and then have to spend 30 mins driving to work on top. I like waking up on a morning through the week in a nice warm bed and cab, fire the wagon up and bob the kettle on to make a brew, knowing that I’m already at work and am already getting paid.

I average £540/week topline plus £17.50 per night out on top for approx 65hrs over a 5.5 day week which lands me about £486 in the bank. Okay, in reality I may actually be working the equivalent of 2 years for 1, if you follow, but like I said, it’s a way of life I’ve got used to.

Contrary to all this talk of wages going sky high when the WTD comes in, I also believe it won’t happen and unless I go and work for a trolley company to drive a very basic 9 litre 310 gee-gee Scanny artic, I can’t see me still taking home the same amount for doing only 48hrs and of course, I won’t have any night out money either.

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Rob K:
I won’t have any night out money either.

You’ve lost me here, how does the WTD stop night out money, after all your nights out are not working time, I work on the continent, the only real change for me will be keeping under 60 hrs when away from UK, when I get home I will get to take a bit more time off at home with my family to compensate for the extra hours worked when away…I will expect a bit of a pay rise to compensate me for the days that I won’t be able to work, and if it isn’t forthcoming I will, like any sensible driver be voting with my feet…I will, if I have to, drive a shopping trolley

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jimti:

Rob K:
I won’t have any night out money either.

You’ve lost me here, how does the WTD stop night out money, after all your nights out are not working time, I work on the continent, the only real change for me will be keeping under 60 hrs when away from UK, when I get home I will get to take a bit more time off at home with my family to compensate for the extra hours worked when away…I will expect a bit of a pay rise to compensate me for the days that I won’t be able to work, and if it isn’t forthcoming I will, like any sensible driver be voting with my feet…I will, if I have to, drive a shopping trolley

Sorry, I didn’t clarify what I meant. What I meant was that being restricted to a 48hr week is more than likely going to put an end (on the whole) to tramping work in the UK, imo. Hence why I concluded that I’d also be losing my night out money. Sorry for the confusion.

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what is everybodys problem with working less hours,roll on the wtd,and thank god the eec is in existence to protect us from bosses who would gladly want you to work 20 hours a day for £2 A HOUR.

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I tramp all week, have a wife & 2 kids, start on a monday morning & get home on a friday night (WILL NOT work weekends, they are my family time).
I have 4 nights out every week (unless I get near home), do on average 60 hours (sometimes more, not often less) over the 5 days & get similar money to you RobK, my wife doesnt work so what I earn is what we have… still wouldnt mind 48 hours for the same money !

You can still tramp on 48 hours, I have done it & struggled to do 50 hours a week before now ( not at current employment I hasten to add), it means you get a lie in most mornings & also pull up in time for the soaps :wink:

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rob please! i drive a 345 gas powered foden! not a 310 scanny! wanna race? :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: 52 hrs- 498 topline wage. supermarkets are great :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: . work less hours not more… its good for you honest!

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Rob, I don’t understand why you think the way you do.

Surely if periods other than driving and actual other work duties are not included in the directive it will very little difference if you don’t want it to. I am a tramper with a work pattern exactly like yours in every way except pulling containers. As we can only average 45 hrs driving anyway that still allows 3 hrs for other duties (truthfully all I’ll do on my type of work) and the rest of the time the tacho’s on bed. So I’ll still have my 70hrs with 48hrs work officially.

The biggest difference that I can see is that if you don’t want to do long hours it may at last be possible to get a decent wage for 48hrs in distribution type work, etc.

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milky bar kid:
Rob, I don’t understand why you think the way you do.

Surely if periods other than driving and actual other work duties are not included in the directive it will very little difference if you don’t want it to. I am a tramper with a work pattern exactly like yours in every way except pulling containers. As we can only average 45 hrs driving anyway that still allows 3 hrs for other duties (truthfully all I’ll do on my type of work) and the rest of the time the tacho’s on bed. So I’ll still have my 70hrs with 48hrs work officially.

The biggest difference that I can see is that if you don’t want to do long hours it may at last be possible to get a decent wage for 48hrs in distribution type work, etc.

Ah, that’s the problem though. I originally thought it was an average of 48hrs driving per week, but I’ve since been informed that it isn’t. Therefore 48hrs total work for the week on UK tramping work will mean a hell of a lot of time sat about doing zip. If I still see £540ish topline for doing two thirds the hours I’m doing now then I’ve no problem with that but somehow we all know that in reality that won’t happen.

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JONBOY@RH:
rob please! i drive a 345 gas powered foden! not a 310 scanny! wanna race? :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: 52 hrs- 498 topline wage. supermarkets are great :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: . work less hours not more… its good for you honest!

Supermarket work is boring though. You get a fleet motor which never sees a clean and everyone abuses them, slams into kerbs so that the steering shakes about like a [zb] dog etc. The job overall just wouldn’t float my boat. I enjoy driving along windy lanes in Dorset, N & S Hampshire, W Sessex etc when loading plants and salad stuff whereas if I did trolley work I’d never get out of the county I live in. Each to their own I guess.

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[quote=“peter cherry”]what is everybodys problem with working less hours,quote]

Less money!!

Apart from that it’s a great idea!!! :unamused: :unamused:

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Forgive me if I’m overstating the obvious, but there are a couple of things here that do not seem to be fully understood.

But it does not include break periods(whether paid or unpaid),rest periods or “periods of availability”. Periods of availability might include for example,accompanying a vehicle on a ferry crossing,or waiting for a vehicle to be loaded or unloaded.To be a valid period of availability however, the driver needs to know about these periods in advance(i.e. Just before the start of the period in question), and be aware of their approximate duration.

“Periods of availability” are essentially the time spent with the seat tipped back listening to the radio or on the bunk because there is nothing else to do.

So sitting parked stareing at the chill bays as Asda, Lutterworth, will NOT count towards “Working Time”

Parked on the bay whilst the muppets pull the load off, will NOT count towards “Working Time”.

Parking up waiting for the load to be checked and the paperwork to be signed off, will NOT count towards “Working Time”.

Sitting on the hardshoulder of a Motorway waiting for a tyre fitter to turn up, will NOT count towards “Working Time”.

All will remain, as now, paid employment, but will NOT count as “working time” under the Regulations to be introduced.

Even on a Motorway, if, because of an accident, everthing grinds to a TOTAL halt and you switch off the engine, then that time will not necessarily count as “Working Time”. (If you can see far enough ahead and give the RIGHT answers to any future questions)

Yes, there is a proviso,

however, the driver needs to know about these periods in advance(i.e. Just before the start of the period in question), and be aware of their approximate duration

but surely as Professionals WE are aware of these periods and their likely duration. :smiley:

Safeway’s, Stockton, with an ambient load, you queue around the building and move up as each vehicle gets tipped. You may be there three hours, but the only “Working Time” spent in the queue is the six or eight minutes spent firing up the motor and moving forward.

I frequently work 13 or 14 hours which, more often than not this breaks down to the following:- Driving, 7 or 8 hours, Admin, i.e., vehicle check, getting paperwork, handing in paperwork, collecting pallets, fuelling, probably accounts for another hour. The rest of the time is spent ‘Hanging About’. All of which counts as Paid Employment (apart from 45 minutes) but will NOT count as “Working Time”.

So how will these 'periods of availability be recorded? With the introduction of Digital Tachographs and their 39 pictograms which can be used in up to 43 combinations, there shouldn’t be a problem, but in the meantime, it may be necessary to adopt a policy of actually using what we have now. I.E. using the crossed hammers for “Other Work” and the Diagonal Box for “Periods of Availability”. I know some will say that we dont use the crossed hammers in the UK, but I do not see any other way around it. The best advice I can give is to ‘get into the habit now’, or you may regret it later.

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So I was right on the WTD thread when I questioned that the 48hrs is actually, in reality, driving time. As you’ve said Ken, the rest of the day is spent tossing it off basically aka “periods of availability”.

Therefore, as my total driving on an average week usually comes to around 43hrs over a six day week and nearly totalling 3000 kms, when the WTD comes in, there will in actual fact be no change as all my hours outside that 43hrs of driving will come under “periods of availability”. Subsequently, it is obvious to me that the gaffer doesn’t have any reason to put my wage up to £10/hr because of the WTD introduction as basically, nothing has changed.

Why are so many of you looking forward to WTD then ? From what I’ve concluded above, those of us who actually work 60hrs+/week will be continuing to do so as those 12hrs over the 48 are “periods of availability” :open_mouth: :open_mouth: :open_mouth:

Another rip-off and insult to us drivers.