HI i work as a driver for a fuel company doing multiple drops , due to the bad weather our boss is pushing more and more work on us , As we do not drive far between drops we hardly go over our driving time but how many hours in the day can we be at work for? At the moment for example some drivers book on at 05 and do not get back till say 7 or 8 with 45 mins break ! this can’t be right can it ?
If you come under the scope of EU Driver’s Hours regulations then it is all about the amount of rest in a 24 hour period you require. You require a continuous period of 11 hours rest in the 24 hour period beginning when you start work after a rest period, this leaves you 13 hours you can be at work for. Three times between weekly rest periods you can reduce the 11 hours to a minimum of 9 hours, this leaves you 15 hours you can be at work for.
If you start at 05:00 and have a 9 hour rest available you can work through until 20:00 and as you say you don’t accumulate 4.5 hours driving you will need either a minimum of 30 minutes break, if the total work for the shift (driving and other work) is between 6 and 9 hours, or 45 minutes if the total work for the shift is more than 9 hours to satisfy the WTD regulations. Those breaks can be split into 2 or 3 parts provided any part is at least 15 minutes.
So, the drivers who are starting at 5 AM and working through until 7 or 8 PM with a 45 minute break are legal, as long as they don’t do this more than 3 times between weekly rest periods. Once they have done those hours 3 times they can only work from 5 AM until 6 PM until they have taken a weekly rest period.
Stand by for ROG to come along and start banging on about safety, however you didn’t ask about safety you asked about legality. 
Coffeeholic:
Stand by for ROG to come along and start banging on about safety…
No reason to - the 6 hour RT(WTD)R rule will apply 
Thanks for that ! That has made it a lot more clear and saves me an argument with the Boss !! On another point some drivers say not to put in your tacho in untill you have loaded and are about to leave the yard to save time ? i always put in my tacho when arriving at work and doing my V checks ? 
JG 76:
Thanks for that ! That has made it a lot more clear and saves me an argument with the Boss !! On another point some drivers say not to put in your tacho in untill you have loaded and are about to leave the yard to save time ? i always put in my tacho when arriving at work and doing my V checks ?
The drivers who are not putting the tacho in until they leave the yard are committing several offences among which is falsifying records for which the punishment can be very severe. You are doing it the correct way.
ROG:
Coffeeholic:
Stand by for ROG to come along and start banging on about safety…No reason to - the 6 hour RT(WTD)R rule will apply
Judging by the last post from JG 76 it may apply but I wouldn’t like to bet on the fact they are complying with it.
Thanks again !!!
Coffeeholic:
ROG:
Coffeeholic:
Stand by for ROG to come along and start banging on about safety…No reason to - the 6 hour RT(WTD)R rule will apply
Judging by the last post from JG 76 it may apply but I wouldn’t like to bet on the fact they are complying with it.
I’m wondering if the boss has worked out that if they do under 4.5hrs of driving in a shift and set the tacho to break all day then no RT(WTD)R breaks will need to be taken at all… VOSA might have something to say about that if they catch them though!!
ROG:
I’m wondering if the boss has worked out that if they do under 4.5hrs of driving in a shift and set the tacho to break all day then no RT(WTD)R breaks will need to be taken at all…
Err, if they set the tacho to break then it will show the breaks being taken. Surely you meant set it to POA then no breaks would be required to be shown. Either way VOSA would indeed have something to say if they showed no other work, especially given the nature of their work where it is obvious there must be other work involved.
Coffeeholic:
ROG:
I’m wondering if the boss has worked out that if they do under 4.5hrs of driving in a shift and set the tacho to break all day then no RT(WTD)R breaks will need to be taken at all…Err, if they set the tacho to break then it will show the breaks being taken. Surely you meant set it to POA then no breaks would be required to be shown. Either way VOSA would indeed have something to say. if they showed no other work, especially given the nature of their work where it is obvious there must be other work involved.
DOH!! - yes, I meant to say POA - SENIOR MOMENT - again!!
Now then ROG…
There’s a key phrase in the OP that says that there MUST be some other work going on at each drop…
… a driver for a fuel company doing multiple drops …
I’m making one assumption… I imagine that tanker work is being discussed, so I’m not sure whether you know this, but the law about tanker deliveries is that somebody (usually the driver) must be ‘in attendance’ whilst discharging.
At a depot, there’s usually somebody who is competent to watch what’s going on who could be asked to be ‘in attendance’ whilst the driver nips to the toilet etc, but the nature of fuel deliveries is such that this isn’t always possible. Failing to record ‘other work’ in this case is one of the most easily detectable cases of a false record that there could be, for exactly the reason that Neil gave.
Nah dave. he’s on fuel deliveries - why would he want to be near that when it’s pumping out - H&S rules - be as far away as possible and let some other bugger cop it if it goes up 
ROG:
- H&S rules - be as far away as possible and let some other bugger cop it if it goes up
That’s a funny one ROG cos it’s the H&S rules that uses the phrase ‘in attandance’ cos there’s no mention of that in ADR. Trust me, cos I had a look at ADR once and I can confirm the rumour that I drove a tanker once as well!! 
dieseldave:
There’s a key phrase in the OP that says that there MUST be some other work going on at each drop…… a driver for a fuel company doing multiple drops …
I’m making one assumption… I imagine that tanker work is being discussed, so I’m not sure whether you know this, but the law about tanker deliveries is that somebody (usually the driver) must be ‘in attendance’ whilst discharging.
Indeed, which is why
I:
Either way VOSA would indeed have something to say. if they showed no other work, especially given the nature of their work where it is obvious there must be other work involved.
dieseldave:
ROG:
- H&S rules - be as far away as possible and let some other bugger cop it if it goes up
You missed the point…
… the H&S rules I am refering to are…
… ROG H&S rules
Coffeeholic:
dieseldave:
There’s a key phrase in the OP that says that there MUST be some other work going on at each drop…… a driver for a fuel company doing multiple drops …
I’m making one assumption… I imagine that tanker work is being discussed, so I’m not sure whether you know this, but the law about tanker deliveries is that somebody (usually the driver) must be ‘in attendance’ whilst discharging.
Indeed, which is why
I:
Either way VOSA would indeed have something to say. if they showed no other work, especially given the nature of their work where it is obvious there must be other work involved.
Indeed Neil, but my comment was aimed at pre-empting a ROG type request for clarifications, cos (based on his past form ) I thought he might miss your point.
Yes sorry it is tanker work ! Indeed i do go on to ‘other work’ but not sure what the others do! I made a point 2 my Boss that as we have 2 be in attendance with the tanker at all times including my 45 mins that we should be paid for our break ,Currently we are not ,but are still responsable for the truck and load.
JG 76:
Yes sorry it is tanker work ! Indeed i do go on to ‘other work’ but not sure what the others do! I made a point 2 my Boss that as we have 2 be in attendance with the tanker at all times including my 45 mins that we should be paid for our break ,Currently we are not ,but are still responsable for the truck and load.
Hi JG 76, Thanks for that info mate.
Of course, your boss can require you to be in attendance at all times as a matter of company policy.
However, in this instance your boss may well be absolutely spot-on, because…
UK law in the form of CDG 2009 Reg.8 says:
–(1) For the purposes of regulation 5, the requirement set out in paragraph (2) is deemed to be a requirement of Chapter 1.10.
(2) A person involved in the carriage of dangerous goods must take all reasonable steps to ensure that unauthorised access to those goods is prevented.
Whilst this might look like gobbledygook, it actually has quite an effect.
In (1) in the above quote, Reg. 5 gives ADR force of law in the UK.
Chapter 1.10 is the chapter of ADR that deals with security provisions.
In (2) in the above quote, it’s easy to see why your boss wants you to be in attendance.
The effect of this is to make UK law even more stringent than ADR in matters of security.
Since you’re obeying your boss’ instructions and the law by being in attendance, I’d say that it appears that you have a good case for being paid for your 45.
Then we’d notice that it says “reasonable steps” and not ‘in attendance at all times’ so that you can legally nip to the toilet, get a brew or go for a smoke if you wish.
The Devil is in the detail, but sometimes the detail suits us.
No ROG, it doesn’t need clarifying…
Thanks for that DieselDave .
JG 76:
Thanks for that DieselDave .
Hi JG 76, No probs mate, cos ADR is what I do.
I just hope that the ammo I’ve supplied works for you.
It ought to though, because if your boss issues a reasonable instruction under your contract of employment and expects you to obey it, then he should pay you for that.
An instruction to you from an employer to comply with a law is definitely ‘reasonable,’ because ignoring it in this case would be a criminal offence, and not simply a breach of company policy.
Your boss seems happy to pay you for obeying a reasonable instruction to deliver a load, so I can’t see how you can’t be paid for following another reasonable instruction.
I’d argue that the boss can’t have this one both ways, because I can only see one correct answer.