Working Time Directive Question

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
1

I have a technical question regarding the Working Time Directive. Any light you could shed on it would be greatly appreciated.

I start a new job the week after next. I’ve handed my weeks notice in, but my average hours are above 48 at the moment. I’d need around 25 hours rest in the coming week to get it back down to 48 hours before I leave, so that I have a clean slate for my new job.

My current employer seem to think it’s ok to pay me the hours they owe me, which seems a bit strange to me. Where do I stand legally with this? I know that it’s unlikely to be investigated by anyone, but to be honest, I’ve grown tired of the constant fighting to get my time back over the years and want to throw the rulebook (which they love to ignore) at them one last time.

2

They can pay you for the hours owed, it won’t bring down your average but there’s nothing to stop them paying you if that’s what you both agree to.

3

The employer can pay you the hours they owe you. Its not what you get paid but what you actually work that counts. If they do it as holiday then each full week counts as 48hrs however if they do it as “pay in lieu” then it counts as zero.

4

Will one company pass on the RTD info to another company?

Will a company start a new reference period?

5

@Malky80

The key question here is , are you being paid on hourly basis or is this a weekly/monthly salary no matter how many hours you , it is always the same money?
If the employer wants to pay for the hours that he owes, I think that’s fair and if you want to average your hours down, just take unpaid leave, leave your current job a few days earlier to make sure when you leave you won’t be over your 48 hrs average for all these weeks before you start with new company.
That’s what I would do to be on the safe side.

“I know that it’s unlikely to be investigated by anyone”

Are you sure?
VOSA, and other authorities have the right to investigate your tacho 2 or 3 years back if they want to.
Now, if you get involved in an accident, you can rest assured, the first thing VOSA and police will do is they will be investigating your hours, to see if you have broken any WTD rules and regulations as they know you, the driver, are the soft target, they know drivers break the law (or I should say, drivers are being bullied by unscrupulous employers to break the law by making them work more hours that the law allows) but they don’t bother to investigate every one, but when things go wrong, that’s the first thing they will do, and they know what to look for.
So, even if you are not at fault, or it is not clear if you are at fault, you will still be investigated.
The other thing they would look for, is they would be comparing your delivery and collection documents to see if your were having your tacho on POA or Break when loading or unloading.
If you want to take a risk and hope you’ll never be investigated, or won’t ever be involved in an accident, keep working, I would never want to put my licence in danger knowing I could avoid it.

“I’ve grown tired of the constant fighting to get my time back over the years and want to throw the rule book (which they love to ignore) at them one last time”

You are absolutely right, it’s your right and duty to watch your hours, unfortunately there are a lot of cowboys out there that would love to make you bend the rules.
Do yourself a favor and find an employer that respects you and the law.
There are a lot of this type of cowboys (employers) posting on this site , I’m sure some of them will be here shortly telling you how difficult driver you are to work with, when you want to respect the law.
It’s your licence , not theirs, remember this.

6

ROG:
Will one company pass on the RTD info to another company?

Will a company start a new reference period?

Is an employee legally required to know what hours he has done, or keep a record for the WTD?
I know an employee has the right to see the records employer has re WTD.

7

weeto:

ROG:
Will one company pass on the RTD info to another company?

Will a company start a new reference period?

Is an employee legally required to know what hours he has done, or keep a record for the WTD?
I know an employee has the right to see the records employer has re WTD.

An employed driver is not expected to work out their RTD average - that is done by the company computers or the company agents

8

weeto:

ROG:
Will one company pass on the RTD info to another company?

Will a company start a new reference period?

Is an employee legally required to know what hours he has done, or keep a record for the WTD?
I know an employee has the right to see the records employer has re WTD.

as far as i know its down to the company to keep records for 2 years on your wtd not the driver

9

Every company I’ve worked for over the last few years have different attitudes to the WTD. Some take no notice of it whatsoever, no books or even time sheets to fill in, others are all over you as soon as you make an error. A mate was telling me last week he got pulled over by vosa, officer asked for his book showing his working hours “we don’t use them” he says, vosa man says “it’s a legal requirement to carry evidence of your hours worked” ended up with the vosa man on the phone to his boss with the boss arguing that they were exempt! Vosa man parked him up until someone showed up with a book.

10

BillyHunt:
Every company I’ve worked for over the last few years have different attitudes to the WTD. Some take no notice of it whatsoever, no books or even time sheets to fill in, others are all over you as soon as you make an error. A mate was telling me last week he got pulled over by vosa, officer asked for his book showing his working hours “we don’t use them” he says, vosa man says “it’s a legal requirement to carry evidence of your hours worked” ended up with the vosa man on the phone to his boss with the boss arguing that they were exempt! Vosa man parked him up until someone showed up with a book.

Tachographs/digicard have all that information.
There is no requirement to carry a ‘book’.
I could have given him one of the books I routinely carry with me, or my Kindle, if he really wanted a book though.

11

ROG:

weeto:

ROG:
Will one company pass on the RTD info to another company?

Will a company start a new reference period?

Is an employee legally required to know what hours he has done, or keep a record for the WTD?
I know an employee has the right to see the records employer has re WTD.

An employed driver is not expected to work out their RTD average - that is done by the company computers or the company agents

So, if he’s not expected to know, he can’t be done for going over then surely, and if thats the case, the OP has nothing to worry about when he starts his new job.

12

Thanks for all the replies guys.

@hkloss1

Thanks for such an in depth reply m8. I’m on a weekly salary, so always the same money. My employer wants to pay me for the hours owed AND work right until my final day, so my average will probably get worse.

I only added the “I know that it’s unlikely to be investigated by anyone” as I knew a few people would have said it on here. I take the laws and regulations very seriously. As a result, I’m sure the office staff think I’m a pain in the backside. The vast majority of the 70+ drivers at our depot tip on break, break speed limits and let the company carry hours forward into the next reference period.

I agree with your last statement too and that’s why I’m joining ASDA. They look like a perfect match for me as they take the rules very seriously, which means I wont have to argue to keep myself legal anymore.

Cheers fellas.

13

Malky80:
Thanks for all the replies guys.

@hkloss1

Thanks for such an in depth reply m8. I’m on a weekly salary, so always the same money. My employer wants to pay me for the hours owed AND work right until my final day, so my average will probably get worse.

I only added the “I know that it’s unlikely to be investigated by anyone” as I knew a few people would have said it on here. I take the laws and regulations very seriously. As a result, I’m sure the office staff think I’m a pain in the backside. The vast majority of the 70+ drivers at our depot tip on break, break speed limits and let the company carry hours forward into the next reference period.

I agree with your last statement too and that’s why I’m joining ASDA. They look like a perfect match for me as they take the rules very seriously, which means I wont have to argue to keep myself legal anymore.

Cheers fellas.

Just have a nice steady last week, with loads of breaks.
And good luck with the new job.

14

Simon:

BillyHunt:
Every company I’ve worked for over the last few years have different attitudes to the WTD. Some take no notice of it whatsoever, no books or even time sheets to fill in, others are all over you as soon as you make an error. A mate was telling me last week he got pulled over by vosa, officer asked for his book showing his working hours “we don’t use them” he says, vosa man says “it’s a legal requirement to carry evidence of your hours worked” ended up with the vosa man on the phone to his boss with the boss arguing that they were exempt! Vosa man parked him up until someone showed up with a book.

Tachographs/digicard have all that information.
There is no requirement to carry a ‘book’.
I could have given him one of the books I routinely carry with me, or my Kindle, if he really wanted a book though.

Oops, should have said he works in the drainage industry, they have a derogation and so have no Tacho cards or digi cards to review.

15

@Malky80

I could somehow understand why a driver would want to take a risk and load or unload on POA or on a Break, when he is paid on hourly basis.
But why would a driver want to do that if he is paid set weekly salary , no matter how many hours he works? This is beyond me.
Don’t these drivers realize that working this way they are actually scoring they own goals?
The more hours you spend at work (loading and unloading on POA and Break) , the less per hour you get paid.
Are these drivers so stupid or are they scared/bullied to this extent, that they are afraid to say no to their employers?

16

@hkloss1

They are mostly stupid m8. They fail to realise / don’t care that working through their breaks means the company will just pile more work onto them. When I try to point out that they are giving the company 45 minutes for free, as well as ruining the job for themselves and for everyone else, they usually come out with the same answer, “I just want to get home as soon as”. They are stressing themselves out, risking their licences, livelihoods and the lives of other road users. I would describe it as a form of bullying too, as the company pile on far too much, especially to new guys. Then when the drivers come back with drops, its a big drama.

The job is a hard slog with 20-25 drops a day, handballing stuff upstairs, etc. To be doing silly hours and working through breaks on top of that is taking far too many liberties.

There are far too many reasons to mention of why I wanted out of the company and I’m just glad that I’ve finally managed to do so. The wages were ok (29k), but were actually keeping me caged in the job as I couldn’t afford to drop too much money when moving elsewhere.

Good riddance.

17

Malky…good for you. Just because others ‘tip on break/POA’ doesn’t of course make it right. Bad transport companies love it when drivers do this ‘just to get the job done’. Sometimes I know it may suit the driver but IMO they are setting a bad precedent and allowing companies to ultimately employ fewer drivers - maybe 10 instead of 11 drivers to do the daily jobs. So well done for sticking up for yourself!!!
Someone (a Transport Manager in-training from a non-transport background, admittedly) said to me the other week that as far as he was concerned tipping on break was ‘an industry-wide norm.’ so I had to explain that when he becomes TM that he must stamp it out. My words were ‘Just imagine your over-tired driver goes on to kill someone in an RTA after tipping on break, that’s what would be on my mind all the time if I were in your shoes!!!’.

Good luck at Asda!!!