Coffeeholic:
You are also seem to be fixating on this 5 hour work, 15 minutes break, 5 hours work thing. This as a shift on its own would not be legal under the WTD. As a standalone shift there would need to be another 30 minutes of break in there somewhere, it is a shift of over 9 hours so breaks totalling 45 minutes are required. It has only arisen in this scenario because of the odd way the breaks were distributed through the shift, with a 1 hour break after only 1 hour of work.
I know - the fact is that due to the wording that this type of senario is allowed and I dont believe that was the original intention
True, but whatever way you word it there will always be the odd scenario that seems to go against the spirit of the regulations. In this case is it the fault of the WTD or the fault of the worker for taking their breaks in the way they did.
Earlier you were saying you thought it was illegal as they had worked for more than 9 hours without 30 minutes of break. Suppose the 9 hours was a rolling 9 hours, as you seem to want it to be. In this case then he could have worked the 5 hours, taken the 15 minute break, worked 4 hours, taken another 15 minute break, then worked the last hour, or to the end of a 15 hour shift. Not really much difference to this scenario wording it that way.
This is an unusual shift, I can’t imagine many people would agree to work a shift with the breaks distributed like that so I think it is very much the exception to the rules.
This is an unusual shift, I can’t imagine many people would agree to work a shift with the breaks distributed like that so I think it is very much the exception to the rules.
I think it should be remembered that in the original question no mention was made of what the work was nor does there really need to be, I imagine there would be plenty of situations where a 15 minute break after five hours work would be appropriate.
Have to say that blaming Coffeeholic for the regulations is like shooting the messenger because you don’t like the message, anyone answering a question can only say what the regulations are not what they’d like them to be, though to be honest I don’t think the regulations are that bad given that they need to cover a wide variety of situations.
i am not moaning about coffee ,it was just a little light harted comment .what is strange to me is that a man in the year 2007 can go 10 hours with only a 15
minute break to me atotal of 10 hours is a long day including my 45 break.
fuse:
i am not moaning about coffee ,it was just a little light harted comment .what is strange to me is that a man in the year 2007 can go 10 hours with only a 15
minute break to me atotal of 10 hours is a long day including my 45 break.
But, he could have distributed his breaks differently over the shift and this would have been avoided, the WTD did not force him to take his breaks in this way. Taking 1 hour break after just 1 hour of work then only a 15 minute break for the next 10 hours seems strange to me. I can’t imagine any company scheduling a shift like that. A worker is going to be most productive at the start of their shift and taking a long break so soon after the shift starts would, I think, be detrimental to this. I would be interested to hear the reason why it happened like this, is it a regular thing or a one off due to circumstances?
The whole lot of these hours regs are a mess…I used to work 12 hrs with adequate breaks, then they gave us tacho’s i now have the ability to work 15 hrs and limited breaks, throw in the wtd and my day is so confusing I can’t sleep at night worrying that I might have accidentally got my driving hours rules mixed up working hours and my new truck will have a digi tacho to really throw a spanner into the works.
For me I try to work inside the spirit of the rules and not the best way they can be interpreted for the boss.
Wheel Nut:
Coffeholic always amazes me with his simplicity of explaining fairly complex rules by just reading them properly.
I got the gist of what he was saying at the end of page one. but to read these EU regs you need to read and understand every part of them.
Neil, send the cheque now please
I was the one who originally asked this question. According to Vosa coffeeholic is right . However the advice I was given is that this could change in time with a test case. Nobody to date (some 2 years after the WTD was made law )has been taken to court regarding this issue… A lot of Tacho anyslsis firms were working it out on a rolling basis6 and 9 hour basis but because of the complexity of it all, a lot of drivers were unknowingly picking up infringments The . Department for Transport then issued a statement to the anylsis firms stating that the 6 and 9 hour work period is measured from start of the day with no more than 6 hours work between breaks of 15 minutes. That is the current enforecement view. Andrew
anadrewhardingjones:
According to Vosa coffeeholic is right.
They know better than to disagree with him
I’m sure they do. Coffeeholic asked me if this a regular shift. The answer is definetly no, it was just a busy day a one off . I just wanted to see whether it ws legal, I then went to VOSA for advice
Not all of VOSA, just one or two I have had a ‘discussion’ with over the years who needed a little extra training on the regulations. Not too much training, maybe you could call it coffee break training.
Im a new driver, and work 48hrs + per week ( 12 hrs per day)
I do multidrop work etc.
under the WTD, it requires me to take 45min rest, as i work over 9 hrs per day.
1, is this full break required in the max 6 hrs,
No, it may be taken in either one lump of 45 minutes or it can be split into shorter breaks of at least 15 minutes. The only requirements are you must not accumulate more than 6 hours work without a break, the break at 6 hours could be just 15 minutes if you choose and it must interrupt the shift - i.e. no part of the break can be taken right at the end of the shift as this wouldn’t interrupt it.
viking121:
and if so it means me having my 4.5 hr drive reset and wasting drive time.
The re-setting of the driving time counter after a 45-minute break does not waste any driving time, you don’t lose the part of the 4.5 hours you haven’t used. For instance, if you started work and drove for 3 hours then took a 45-minute break you would still have 6 hours driving left for a 9 hour driving day and 7 hours for a 10. You would not lose the 1.5 hours you were short of 4.5 hours when you took your break. You could then drive for another 4.5 hours before another break was required under the tacho rules.
viking121:
2. can i do a 30 min in the 6hrs( WTD) and then when i reach my 4.5hrs driving hours, then take a further 30 min, would this be legal?.
Yes, it would be legal, provided you don’t accumulate another 6 hours work before reaching your 4.5 hours of driving. You could also take 15 minutes at, or before, 6 hours and then 30 minutes when you accumulate 4.5 hours driving if you wish. That would also be legal for both the WTD and the tacho rules. Remember it is only driving and other work which counts toward the 6 hour WTD limit, POA and break do not count.
If a company sets unrealistic drop times, and dont take on board rest time etc,
is it worth contacting vosa and report them.
I have just joined the firm, and i worked with a few different driver for a week, before being let out on my own.
I noticed that many drivers were putting tacho on break while working, when i asked them why, as i no its not legal or good pratice, they told me that it was to get the drops done.
has being out on my own now, i have realised how much pressure this company puts driver under.
its a 48hr week, over 4 days. if u go over your 12 hr day, they dont pay nothing more, yesterday i clocked up 15hrs, before not even making it home, so i had to call them, and demanded they send a driver out to get me home.
started at 4am
by 7am - took 15min
by 12.30. took 30min, due to off loading/ multidrop etc.
Hi there. It is your responsibility to record loading unloading etc as other work. If u are recording these periods as breaks then u are creating a false record which u already know. Pernsonally I wouldnt work more than 6 hours without a 30 minute break. I know there is an example on the Department for transport webs sitte which allows u to take 15 minutes after 6 hours and then another 15 minutes before 9 hours, but there has never been a court case. U are in a catch 22 situation really because if u want to keep your job obvuiously its best to keep quiet, but u cant be forced to record work as a break. With timesheets of deliveries etc if VOSA went after u they’s proberbly be able to prove that you were loading unloading when u were on break.
Thanks for the reply, i would like to point out that i dont follow bad work pratice like this, has i know vosa dont mess around, and i dont want to lose my licence also.
The other drivers who do this, just to get work done are fools to them self, as the law states" no company can pressure or set unrealistic targets for there drivers, and if they do they them self are also in breach of the laws, ie health and safety etc, and will face heavy fine and lose there operaters licence.
if i work 12 hrs etc, then i take a break of 15min before the 6hr rule, then at 4.5 hrs drive time i take the other 30 min also, as long as i dont reach the other 6hrs o/w before that 4.5.
and this should keep me legal, as for the company, they can go f**k them selfs, as only a few weeks in im fed up with there crap style of work, a very bad company indeed.
I think we should have a list up on here warning fellow drivers about crap firms, just so we have a insight into them before working for them.
anadrewhardingjones:
Hi there. It is your responsibility to record loading unloading etc as other work. If u are recording these periods as breaks then u are creating a false record which u already know. Pernsonally I wouldnt work more than 6 hours without a 30 minute break. I know there is an example on the Department for transport webs sitte which allows u to take 15 minutes after 6 hours and then another 15 minutes before 9 hours, but there has never been a court case. U are in a catch 22 situation really because if u want to keep your job obvuiously its best to keep quiet, but u cant be forced to record work as a break. With timesheets of deliveries etc if VOSA went after u they’s proberbly be able to prove that you were loading unloading when u were on break.
I do it all the time, it takes me 2 minutes to open the doors and can take an hour to load. As long as my tacho is on other work when I book in and shut the doors I can take a legal break while loading.
We are not all blessed with such a long non de plume that you can get a fifteen in while you write your name on the gatepass
viking121:
Thanks for the reply, i would like to point out that i dont follow bad work pratice like this, has i know vosa dont mess around, and i dont want to lose my licence also.
The other drivers who do this, just to get work done are fools to them self, as the law states" no company can pressure or set unrealistic targets for there drivers, and if they do they them self are also in breach of the laws, ie health and safety etc, and will face heavy fine and lose there operaters licence.
if i work 12 hrs etc, then i take a break of 15min before the 6hr rule, then at 4.5 hrs drive time i take the other 30 min also, as long as i dont reach the other 6hrs o/w before that 4.5.
and this should keep me legal, as for the company, they can go f**k them selfs, as only a few weeks in im fed up with there crap style of work, a very bad company indeed.
I think we should have a list up on here warning fellow drivers about crap firms, just so we have a insight into them before working for them.
what you all think?
drive safe people, and watch ur speed. lol.
viking
One thing worth mentioing if work totals 9 hours or more in a shift then breaks should total 45 minutes
