Wireless Internet access at truckstops

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
41

Scriv :open_mouth:

You seem to be missing several important facts :

MSAs are typically built out in the sticks and hence nowhere near a phone exchange - 10 to 15 miles away at least at a rough guess. As I’m sure you’re aware, for ADSL to work you’ll need to be within 5.5km of the exchange at the absolute maximum to even get a sniff of a connection, ideally much closer. I’d be very surprised if any MSA is within 5.5km of an exchange, so how exactly are you planning to offer this service?

Let’s say for argument sake that there is an exchange within range, you’re then looking at about £700-1000 in equipment to provide a reasonable in cab coverage at each site, £100+VAT install for the phone line, £50+VAT for the broadband activation and £100+VAT for a decent router. On top of that you have permission to gain, ground works to do for the mast installs*, power feeds to run and of course whatever cut the site want. :bulb:

(* you haven’t got a hope in hell of covering the truck park without a mast that’s got a virtual line of sight to every cab window, and that’s only at the truck parks that aren’t 3 miles away from the main building with a moat round them. Realistically you’ll need a 50ft mast - for which will require planning permission - minimum, in order to see the roof / top 3 inches of the truck windscreens. If you’re parked the facing the wrong way then it won’t work. A normal router is only good for 300 metres and you show me any truck stop which has all of the truck park within that distance of the main building.)

Also, as it’s a business premises, if the copper is miles long and there isn’t any spare available, BT will charge you a build-out charge which can be £-thousands. You wouldn’t even be able to get the line in under USO (Universal Service Obligation) touting it as a residential install because BT won’t deliver it to a mast base and to be honest, you could easily be looking at another 500 metres of cable from the main building to the mast base and this will be charged by BT as a business install at £60 per metre :open_mouth: .

The only possible way it would work is if trucks got wireless antennas installed like cars / mobiles or laptops had a socket (as standard) to connect an external aerial to. However, you’d still need line of sight and it would be touch and go and seeing as most laptops these days already have wireless built in, that’s another £50 for us truckers to shell out for. You could use a USB external job and bob it on the roof while you’re using it but it’s a whole load of [zb] about and still doesnt get away from the fact that realistically over those distances you need line of site of the antenna mast and a high gain (read illegal) antenna at the base station - or lots of them.

While it’s a nice idea to offer it to us at a quid a night, you haven’t got a hope in hell of it lasting nor making it pay. By my estimations, to make it pay over year you’d need approx 1400-1700 sales just to break even at those prices. :open_mouth:

The other thing you appear not to have considered is the contention rate. As we all tend to park up at roughly the same time the contention on an ADSL line that is already contended 50:1+ at the exchange will then be contended by 20 to 50 of us lot let’s say, could realistically end up being contended 2500:1 :open_mouth: .

…and all to consider IF[/b] you are able to find MSAs within 3 miles of an exchange (read: highly unlikely!).
Nice idea though! :smiley:

42

Speedy:
Scriv :open_mouth:

You seem to be missing several important facts :

MSAs are typically built out in the sticks and hence nowhere near a phone exchange - 10 to 15 miles away at least at a rough guess. As I’m sure you’re aware, for ADSL to work you’ll need to be within 5.5km of the exchange at the absolute maximum to even get a sniff of a connection, ideally much closer. I’d be very surprised if any MSA is within 5.5km of an exchange, so how exactly are you planning to offer this service?

Dozens of MSA’s already offer this sort of thing, I frequently make use of it through BT Openzone

43

Coffeeholic:

Speedy:
Scriv :open_mouth:

You seem to be missing several important facts :

MSAs are typically built out in the sticks and hence nowhere near a phone exchange - 10 to 15 miles away at least at a rough guess. As I’m sure you’re aware, for ADSL to work you’ll need to be within 5.5km of the exchange at the absolute maximum to even get a sniff of a connection, ideally much closer. I’d be very surprised if any MSA is within 5.5km of an exchange, so how exactly are you planning to offer this service?

Dozens of MSA’s already offer this sort of thing, I frequently make use of it through BT Openzone

:unamused: :laughing:

This is delivered over the leased line that the site already has in and pays for themself, along with all the other phones and sites data services, and a big fat bill from BT/NTL/Fibrenet/whoever. To get a leased line in from the nearest exchange to the typical location of an MSA would be circa ÂŁ2000 per month. :open_mouth:

44

Ah right, I see now.

If BT are using the leased line to offer their Openzone service wouldn’t the MSA get a reduction in their line cost as a result, as BT are making money from the users? Sort of selling part of the line back to BT so they can use it?

45

Coffeeholic:
Ah right, I see now.

If BT are using the leased line to offer their Openzone service wouldn’t the MSA get a reduction in their line cost as a result, as BT are making money from the users? Sort of selling part of the line back to BT so they can use it?

When they put a line in there are usually some spares as well so they’ll be providing the Openzone service on one of those probably. As to whether the site is getting a reduction in fees I’ve no idea.

46

scriv:
Very interesting, thanks Longwayround. The website’s a bit short on tech info but it looks like they’re load balancing the network connections through multiple cell phone companies to achieve the data rate. I’m not sure if that’s feasible on the existing mobile phone networks in the UK. I know there is a simlar idea operating on some UK trains at the moment using T Mobile but the feedback, in terms of performance, has not been very good.
Out of interest what is the situation regarding WI-FI hotspots at truckstops in the States? Do most of them have one?

WI-FI is popping up at state run highway rest stops.That is free.

WI-FI at truck stops was on a pay basis a couple of years ago ,but now most places it is free for the first hour,or totally free. Hotels also have free wi-fi as does Mc Donalds,Starbucks and all those chain type restaurants.

Don’t want to be negative towards your project but the only place I’ve paid for an internet connection is in my own house. :blush: I guess when the Govt figures out how to put a use tax on it the party will be over.

47

Speedy:
MSAs are typically built out in the sticks and hence nowhere near a phone exchange - 10 to 15 miles away at least at a rough guess. As I’m sure you’re aware, for ADSL to work you’ll need to be within 5.5km of the exchange at the absolute maximum to even get a sniff of a connection,

You’re a bit out of touch there mate. ADSL now works up to 8km. There are only a handful of places in the entire UK which can’t get ADSL. Virtually every single exchange now supports DSL albeit at 1MBit in the most remote places.

You can get an antenna and booster that’ll do the job for £50 with change. No need for a mast at all. Doesn’t need to be line of sight either. I can pick up Wifi at the former Sara Lee factory from over 1/2 mile away with a PDA and CF Wifi adapter.

Home Routers only work a few hundred yards because they have crap antennas that are sat on desktops. Get a decent antenna with a decent gain and stick it outside and everything improves dramatically.

Don’t know what you’ve been looking at but you’re talking about Wifi as it was a few years ago.

48

Hello Speedy,

Nice to see you post again! :sunglasses: :wink:

I’m currently mamaging to pick up WiFi over better distances than you mentioned which will be because of the ‘Wardriving Kit’ I bought for a fair bit less than £50. (BTW, I haven’t been using the kit to steal bandwidth {yet!! LOL} but a couple of the WiFi access points I have been using recently are too weak on my laptops built-in WiFi - the PCMIA card & 2 x antennae’s have improved the reception x 10 at least!! I don’t have line of sight to the WiFi router that I connect to but still manage to surf the web. I’m sure it’d be the same in the scenario that Scriv mentions.)

I have no idea about costs, BT, etc, etc so can’t really comment if it would be a (cost) viable idea.

Conor:
There are only a handful of places in the entire UK which can’t get ADSL

Well BT need to get their arse into gear and have a look at my house which is definately much less than 8.5km from the exchange!! We did eventually get a 512 connection after badgering them for ages, despite their website based connection/speed checker stating that no BB connection was available. I dream of the day I can get a proper broadband connection!!! :unamused:

49

over here in france a lot of the service areas are offering wifi services but i couldnt tell you how they work or how much they cost.

when i start my new job i will be investing in a lappy and as i will be doing international (based in france) will be coming over to the uk and going to italy, will want IM access to talk to the mrs at night as it will be a cheaper option than roaming on my mobile.

as for imcoming e-mail for job details that is an added bonus.

am going to look in to prices for 3G access for SFR ( french vodaphone) but if roaming charges are HUGE will defo be interested in scrivs plans.

best of luck with getting it all off the ground.
salut
chris

50

Hi all
I tend to think that one of the difficulties of these type of forums is that members pick up a thread at different points and therefore don’t always read the opening reasons for the posting. I started the thread to get some feedback on the commercial possibities of the project. I don’t really want to get into the technical viability of this type of installation at truck stops. We are already in the business supplying caravan parks, narrowboat marinas and similar sites. I took the issues involving equipment costs, wireless transmission, broadband supply and contention ratios into consideration before ever posting on this forum.

Thanks for the feedback on the States, it is a very different market to the UK but it’s always useful to know what’s happening there.

Chris if you’re looking for access through your mobile in the short term I think you’ll probably find it cheaper to buy local payg sim cards, not really my field so just an observation.

Thanks for the feedback everyone / scriv

51

scriv:
We are already in the business supplying caravan parks, narrowboat marinas and similar sites. I took the issues involving equipment costs, wireless transmission, broadband supply and contention ratios into consideration before ever posting on this forum.

So how do you plan to overcome the issues I’ve put forward? I was particularly looking forward to your reply but it appears that you’ve completely avoided the subject.

Surely you must be in agreement that the vast majority of MSAs are WELL out of range for any hope of an ADSL connection? If you disagree, please explain why.

52

Conor:
You’re a bit out of touch there mate. ADSL now works up to 8km. There are only a handful of places in the entire UK which can’t get ADSL. Virtually every single exchange now supports DSL albeit at 1MBit in the most remote places.

Hmm, 1Meg is about right for 4km of cable. Anything above that is 1/2meg or 256k, and even then it could be rate adaptive too. Fear you need to check some facts chap.

Conor:
You can get an antenna and booster that’ll do the job for £50 with change. No need for a mast at all. Doesn’t need to be line of sight either. I can pick up Wifi at the former Sara Lee factory from over 1/2 mile away with a PDA and CF Wifi adapter.

Not denying your point about the antenna for 50 quid, but above unity gain on a 100mw base station is too high a power density and you are likely to run into hastle with the dTi

Conor:
Don’t know what you’ve been looking at but you’re talking about Wifi as it was a few years ago.

Err, no just legal wifi in a production environment. Lets put it this way, you stick a 10/12db antenna up in the office of an MSA and start interfering with the BTOz, iBahn or Cloud kit on legal antennas in commercial service inside the building and lets see how long your business proposition lasts…

Oh and you still seem to be forgetting that acre of metal between the driver and the antenna, not only the vast majority of cabs, but any UV reflective stuff on the windows, embedded elements for screen heaters and not least of which the load of the geezer you are parked behind. Hence the need for line of site.

I fear you research needs a spot of polishing… and if you wish to pop down to our installation in the Cotswolds, you can see the reality in action, rather than speaking from, what is I fear, the top of your head…

53

I think the best truckstop to try it out would be carnforth it is one of the biggest and probably busiest independant truckstop

54

Dafman:
I think the best truckstop to try it out would be carnforth it is one of the biggest and probably busiest independant truckstop

Thanks for that. I did send them an email a little while ago asking if they were interested in discussing a trial. Never got a reply and we were busy with other projects at the time but I’ll give them another try.

Speedy you seem to have overlooked the part of my post you quoted that said “we are already in the business of”. My company’s installations are every bit as commercial and legal as the other companies you mentioned. I don’t want to get dragged into what appears to be an aggressive argument over the technical issues involved in providing wireless broadband services and if I need technical advice I will quite frankly post on a technical forum. You appear to have some issues connected with an existing WI-FI installation in the Cotswolds that is not living up to expectations. Should you wish us to assist I would be quite happy to discuss consultancy services separate to the forum.

You are actually quite correct on some of the points you have raised. 3 km is the distance from the exchange for a reliable and consistant ADSL feed. ADSL is not however the only way of providing broadband to a remote site. I haven’t investigated the situation at every truck stop in the UK yet but I doubt the larger ones are more than 3 km from an exchange.
The gentleman who is picking up the Sarah Lee factory 1/2 a mile away certainly wouldn’t need to be exceeding the 100mw limit you refer to. I think you’ll find that the DTI is no longer involved and that there is currently considerable debate within ofcom on the subject of increasing this limit. Run a google on it if you want more information
You may be right about interference from metal sided vehicles but 54g has removed a lot of the problems experienced with 11b and a simple and cheap magnetic omni on the outside of the vehicle would probably solve the problem. Trucks can’t be any worse than the metal sided canal boats we already deal with.

The paragraph above is for the benefit of the other posters whose responses you have quoted. I feel that a truck drivers forum is for truck drivers issues, ie whether they would like wi-fi or not and at what cost, not for discussing the technicalities of providing wi-fi networks in the UK. I won’t therefore respond to any more posts of that type.

Thanks everyone / scriv

55

scriv:
You appear to have some issues connected with an existing WI-FI installation in the Cotswolds that is not living up to expectations. Should you wish us to assist I would be quite happy to discuss consultancy services separate to the forum.

Very kind of you to offer, but given our existing customer base in Cotswold (1100) and experience in the area I feel we are appropriately qualified to speak.
By the way, we currently run 8 x 2 line sdsl bonds and one 10 meg les circuit for them. We also have nearly 2 gig of transit customers in and around London, 20 racks in Tyco, three in TelehouseE, one in North, one in Mer, one in Sov one in Iphouse, breaks outs to Level 3 etc.

We also supply commercial circuits totalling around 3gig of customer Wans in the UK and France, and approx 3k Xdsl customers.

By the way, why do you host in the US. Pings from here are currently around 350ms across Tiscali, and 300 across Level 3. That performance is dreadful. Do you want some Uk based hosting too? We can do that too!

I did wonder for half a second how many of these caravan site installs you had, and oddly it seems you are only touting for interest there too

Caravan Sitefinder forum

None the less, maybe I might just take you up on your offer :wink: or maybe you can give us a call and we can talk pricing for your circuits and hosting!

BTW seeing you want to take the techie advice elsewhere, catch me on Forum2 and we can have a chat! BTW its here http://www.webhostchat.co.uk/forums/ in case you don’t know the new URL!

link shortened to fit page…Denis F

56

For those of you who were following this thread earlier this year we have now opened the first wireless hotspot at Irenes Cafe on the A426 just south of Lutterworth / Magna Park. Postcode for the satnavs is LE17 4HN. More should be coming over the Summer and I’ll post again as they come on line.

57

scriv:
For those of you who were following this thread earlier this year we have now opened the first wireless hotspot at Irenes Cafe on the A426 just south of Lutterworth / Magna Park. Postcode for the satnavs is LE17 4HN. More should be coming over the Summer and I’ll post again as they come on line.

Wireless router for ÂŁ80 and USB dongles for ÂŁ32.50 !!! Not exactly competetive prices. I think you can get the stuff cheaper out of tescos !! You need to sort your site out as well its not easily navigable.

58

Just a thought,

Your a company… dont you think it would be a good idea to go to a larger company with a business plan …explaining how within the UK you will have i really not know how many services and parking bays…just for the sake of post 20 services… with say 200 bays.and get them to advertise with you therefore the driver gets it for free… and what with word of mouth with drivers and this fanstic forum it will solve the problem. but if you were to charge say £1.50 for 24 hr periods 00:00 to 23:59. im sure another company will try to under cut you

Regards.

59

discoman:
Just a thought,

I wouldn’t think that hard about it, it’ll be standard and free in a few years time.

60

discoman:
Just a thought,

Your a company… dont you think it would be a good idea to go to a larger company with a business plan …explaining how within the UK you will have i really not know how many services and parking bays…just for the sake of post 20 services… with say 200 bays.and get them to advertise with you therefore the driver gets it for free… and what with word of mouth with drivers and this fanstic forum it will solve the problem. but if you were to charge say £1.50 for 24 hr periods 00:00 to 23:59. im sure another company will try to under cut you

Regards.

Thanks for the thought discoman. We are working on a very similar idea to the one you describe at the moment. The truckstop and transport cafe sites we hope to open this Summer are examples to show the larger company in question how the hotspot system would work.

Regards